Hyundai Gandeur/Azera (fifth generation)
12-23-10, 06:58 AM
#106
anyone who says they MUST have a separate brand for this like toyota did with lexus doesn't realize the market has CHANGED. lest we forget brands like BMW have come DOWNMARKET with a 1 series, Audi with the A3, and i wouldn't be surprised if mercedes comes out with a cheaper class in the u.s. lexus is even doing it with the HS and CT.
so lines will blur, the market's more complex, and hyundai can do well at all levels, but not right away of course, it will take time, and yes, they could screw it up. but dismissing or counting them out would be a mistake.
Where the market has really changed is Tier 2-3 cars, and truthfully, history has shown that jumping into that pool is not hard to do. Acura, Infiniti, Audi, Volvo, Cadillac, Buick, VW and Lincoln, have all admitted their aspirations to move upmarket but ultimately slid back down the totem pole or remained stationary. There's a lot of talk coming from each of these brands, but none can really walk the walk aside from maybe Infiniti.
What hasn't changed is that Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes occupy Tier 1, have for a while, and aren't going anywhere soon. I'm not one to harp on Lexus 20 year journey to the top, but it is hard to ignore and the brand built their name on customer service and an unparalleled dealership experience. Hyundai's products are wonderful but product isn't enough to get you past Tier 2 or 3 in the U.S. It's the brand, the experience, cache, technology, marketing, and so many other things.
I'm not saying that Hyundai can't someday be comfortable in the same company as Lexus and Mercedes, but that is a far ways off. Could they build cars as good as the ES or GS? Sure. Does that make them a Tier 1 company? No way. I am sure that to the general public, seeing commercials for an Accent and an Equus, both wearing the Hyundai badge, is a little confusing. It's hard to be taken seriously in the realm of premium or entry level luxury when you sell a FWD 130hp econobox for $13,000. It just doesn't jive with the philosophy behind selling top tier cars like Lexus or Mercedes.
Do you know one of the most cross-shopped cars with the ES 350? The Camry XLE V6. Most of the car buying public actually knows that they're the exact same car, and every month, about five thousand people are willing to spend another $8K to get their foot in the door at Lexus because it looks and feels and seems like it's worth it. Those people are sick of sharing the waiting room with the Yaris owner, picking his nose and jamming to his iPod, or the Sienna mom with all of her crying kids.
There's a reason why Toyota created Lexus, Nissan came up with Infiniti, and Honda formed Acura. Similarly, there's a reason why VW never made it upmarket in the States. Whether it's right or wrong, Americans have shown time and time again that they would rather buy premium cars from a company that builds only premium cars. Look at any of the sales threads - it's obvious.
Until Hyundai dumps the lower end of their lineup and moves to building mostly/strictly premium cars and leaves Kia to the bottom end, they won't be able to approach Tier 1 status. Period. Could they end up building the best Tier 2-3 cars out there? Yup. Some people on this forum would argue that they already do, but to really beat and become a Tier 1 brand, it takes a lot more than just products...
Last edited by MPLexus301; 12-23-10 at 07:04 AM.
12-23-10, 08:56 AM
#107
It's hard to be taken seriously in the realm of premium or entry level luxury when you sell a FWD 130hp econobox for $13,000. It just doesn't jive with the philosophy behind selling top tier cars like Lexus or Mercedes.
Do you know one of the most cross-shopped cars with the ES 350? The Camry XLE V6. Most of the car buying public actually knows that they're the exact same car, and every month, about five thousand people are willing to spend another $8K to get their foot in the door at Lexus because it looks and feels and seems like it's worth it.
There's a reason why Toyota created Lexus, Nissan came up with Infiniti, and Honda formed Acura. Similarly, there's a reason why VW never made it upmarket in the States. Whether it's right or wrong, Americans have shown time and time again that they would rather buy premium cars from a company that builds only premium cars. Look at any of the sales threads - it's obvious.
Do you know one of the most cross-shopped cars with the ES 350? The Camry XLE V6. Most of the car buying public actually knows that they're the exact same car, and every month, about five thousand people are willing to spend another $8K to get their foot in the door at Lexus because it looks and feels and seems like it's worth it.
There's a reason why Toyota created Lexus, Nissan came up with Infiniti, and Honda formed Acura. Similarly, there's a reason why VW never made it upmarket in the States. Whether it's right or wrong, Americans have shown time and time again that they would rather buy premium cars from a company that builds only premium cars. Look at any of the sales threads - it's obvious.
A few things to add:
This is probably why MB don't bring the A and B-class here, probably afraid to cheapen the brand. But sounds like they are thinking of bringing the B-class here. And they separate the cheap Smart as their own brand, like Scion or Saturn.
The ES350 is worth the extra money, even though they share the same chassis, engine and tranny.......all the little small details are different, it feels much smoother and quieter. It is not simply a rebadged Camry XLE V6.
I never understand why VW want to go upmarket, since they already have Audi? Audi is the premium brand and VW is the regular brand, I don't get it.
Last edited by BNR34; 12-24-10 at 04:33 PM.
12-23-10, 09:02 AM
#108
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The lexus ES is starting to look dated, this new azera hg is already out in korea, kinda looks weird but does have the same presence as the lexus ES and GS.
if it starts at 26k then it might be onto something
if it starts at 26k then it might be onto something
12-23-10, 09:11 AM
#109
I think it's a lot easier/different to start at the top and move down market than it is to start at the bottom and go up. Lexus, MB and BMW already have the respect and recognition that they need and deserve - they're proven. It doesn't really matter if you sell a CT or B class because the public already acknowledges the LS, LX, LFA, 7, X5, S, SL, SLS as halo cars and benchmarks. Granted, $30,000 is still a decent amount of money but I don't think the big 3 should venture much below that price point.
Hyundai is known for building cheap econoboxes, luxury cars are foreign territory for them. Mercedes is the international standard for luxury, not econoboxes.
Hyundai is known for building cheap econoboxes, luxury cars are foreign territory for them. Mercedes is the international standard for luxury, not econoboxes.
12-23-10, 09:56 AM
#110
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I agree and disagree with you, Paul.
Where the market has really changed is Tier 2-3 cars, and truthfully, history has shown that jumping into that pool is not hard to do. Acura, Infiniti, Audi, Volvo, Cadillac, Buick, VW and Lincoln, have all admitted their aspirations to move upmarket but ultimately slid back down the totem pole or remained stationary. There's a lot of talk coming from each of these brands, but none can really walk the walk aside from maybe Infiniti.
What hasn't changed is that Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes occupy Tier 1, have for a while, and aren't going anywhere soon. I'm not one to harp on Lexus 20 year journey to the top, but it is hard to ignore and the brand built their name on customer service and an unparalleled dealership experience. Hyundai's products are wonderful but product isn't enough to get you past Tier 2 or 3 in the U.S. It's the brand, the experience, cache, technology, marketing, and so many other things.
I'm not saying that Hyundai can't someday be comfortable in the same company as Lexus and Mercedes, but that is a far ways off. Could they build cars as good as the ES or GS? Sure. Does that make them a Tier 1 company? No way. I am sure that to the general public, seeing commercials for an Accent and an Equus, both wearing the Hyundai badge, is a little confusing. It's hard to be taken seriously in the realm of premium or entry level luxury when you sell a FWD 130hp econobox for $13,000. It just doesn't jive with the philosophy behind selling top tier cars like Lexus or Mercedes.
Do you know one of the most cross-shopped cars with the ES 350? The Camry XLE V6. Most of the car buying public actually knows that they're the exact same car, and every month, about five thousand people are willing to spend another $8K to get their foot in the door at Lexus because it looks and feels and seems like it's worth it. Those people are sick of sharing the waiting room with the Yaris owner, picking his nose and jamming to his iPod, or the Sienna mom with all of her crying kids.
There's a reason why Toyota created Lexus, Nissan came up with Infiniti, and Honda formed Acura. Similarly, there's a reason why VW never made it upmarket in the States. Whether it's right or wrong, Americans have shown time and time again that they would rather buy premium cars from a company that builds only premium cars. Look at any of the sales threads - it's obvious.
Until Hyundai dumps the lower end of their lineup and moves to building mostly/strictly premium cars and leaves Kia to the bottom end, they won't be able to approach Tier 1 status. Period. Could they end up building the best Tier 2-3 cars out there? Yup. Some people on this forum would argue that they already do, but to really beat and become a Tier 1 brand, it takes a lot more than just products...
Where the market has really changed is Tier 2-3 cars, and truthfully, history has shown that jumping into that pool is not hard to do. Acura, Infiniti, Audi, Volvo, Cadillac, Buick, VW and Lincoln, have all admitted their aspirations to move upmarket but ultimately slid back down the totem pole or remained stationary. There's a lot of talk coming from each of these brands, but none can really walk the walk aside from maybe Infiniti.
What hasn't changed is that Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes occupy Tier 1, have for a while, and aren't going anywhere soon. I'm not one to harp on Lexus 20 year journey to the top, but it is hard to ignore and the brand built their name on customer service and an unparalleled dealership experience. Hyundai's products are wonderful but product isn't enough to get you past Tier 2 or 3 in the U.S. It's the brand, the experience, cache, technology, marketing, and so many other things.
I'm not saying that Hyundai can't someday be comfortable in the same company as Lexus and Mercedes, but that is a far ways off. Could they build cars as good as the ES or GS? Sure. Does that make them a Tier 1 company? No way. I am sure that to the general public, seeing commercials for an Accent and an Equus, both wearing the Hyundai badge, is a little confusing. It's hard to be taken seriously in the realm of premium or entry level luxury when you sell a FWD 130hp econobox for $13,000. It just doesn't jive with the philosophy behind selling top tier cars like Lexus or Mercedes.
Do you know one of the most cross-shopped cars with the ES 350? The Camry XLE V6. Most of the car buying public actually knows that they're the exact same car, and every month, about five thousand people are willing to spend another $8K to get their foot in the door at Lexus because it looks and feels and seems like it's worth it. Those people are sick of sharing the waiting room with the Yaris owner, picking his nose and jamming to his iPod, or the Sienna mom with all of her crying kids.
There's a reason why Toyota created Lexus, Nissan came up with Infiniti, and Honda formed Acura. Similarly, there's a reason why VW never made it upmarket in the States. Whether it's right or wrong, Americans have shown time and time again that they would rather buy premium cars from a company that builds only premium cars. Look at any of the sales threads - it's obvious.
Until Hyundai dumps the lower end of their lineup and moves to building mostly/strictly premium cars and leaves Kia to the bottom end, they won't be able to approach Tier 1 status. Period. Could they end up building the best Tier 2-3 cars out there? Yup. Some people on this forum would argue that they already do, but to really beat and become a Tier 1 brand, it takes a lot more than just products...
12-23-10, 10:14 AM
#111
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just fyi, i bought 2 lexus in the past and had a terrible sales experience both times.
i gather that's unusual, but my experience was worse than other purchases from honda, acura, subaru, and ford. i think there's good and bad salespeople at all dealerships.
I do think a separate premium brand would help a lot, I think without it they will be less successful at it.
Just like most people pointed out, the biggest reason the VW Phaeton wasn't a big success was the lack of a premium badge.
hyundai has been improving their offerings a lot over time, with genesis, new sonata (not a luxury car no, but impressive), and now equus, so they've been prepping the market for them adding upscale models. their kia line is improving a lot too, especially the sorrento, and i expect hyundai to really ratchet up their cuv/suv line next.
Personally I think all Lexus that came out after 2006 is less impressive then their previous effort. (Excluding the LFA of course 
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)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_South_Korea
Taking Hyundai upmarket? Maybe, but not with low end vehicles like the Tuscon or Genesis Coupe for sale. In terms of interior quality, the new Sonata isn't exactly a segment leader either.
the new Lexus CT and HS are hardly luxurious. the CT is a less funky more comfy and better handling prius and the HS is, well, the HS.
even the ES, which is a nice and quiet car, comfy and roomy, is basically like a FWD buick. not that luxurious to me, but i guess it's pretty much due for a new version right now. the IS is very plain inside really. but of course lexus needs these vehicles to be less reliant on the runaway best seller, the RX. i definitely prefer a 3 series or C class to an IS/ES, and a 5 series / E class to a GS. i do like the LS460L a lot though.
Yes, Hyundai MUST have a separate luxury brand to be taken seriously in the luxury segment.
The Genesis sedan is more near-luxury, and competes with the lower end "near luxury" brands like Volvo, Lincoln, Acura, etc.
Hyundai's extremely low sales expectations for the Equus in the US is basically an admittal from Hyundai themselves that they know the Equus won't sell branded as a Hyundai. Months from now I'm sure we will all be discussing how low Equus sales are.
Agreed. Not only are they trying to copy Toyota, but they are being quite brash about it and it's almost as if they're proud of it.
The interior quality of the new Sonata is definitely comparable, if not better then it's competitors (Camry, Accord, Altima). I think a lot of people is confuse of thinking the new Sonata is a ES350 competitor, which it is not.
That I agreed 100%, they must have a separate luxury brand to become as successful as Lexus. Or maybe they don't want to be as successful, they just want to be close to Lexus.
on CL it's not surprising we want to group lexus in with those loooooong established german brands, but i don't think fans of those brands do the opposite much!
however, i think this is the key to lexus' success - they're DIFFERENT - generally better in some ways (service, refinement), worse in others (sportiness, handling, rigid option bundles).
I'm not one to harp on Lexus 20 year journey to the top, but it is hard to ignore and the brand built their name on customer service and an unparalleled dealership experience.
Do you know one of the most cross-shopped cars with the ES 350? The Camry XLE V6. Most of the car buying public actually knows that they're the exact same car, and every month, about five thousand people are willing to spend another $8K to get their foot in the door at Lexus because it looks and feels and seems like it's worth it. Those people are sick of sharing the waiting room with the Yaris owner, picking his nose and jamming to his iPod, or the Sienna mom with all of her crying kids.
you know something else? the lexus owners would rather not be at the dealer AT ALL!
Mercedes is the international standard for luxury, not econoboxes.
12-23-10, 10:46 AM
#112
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The current azera starts at 25K and loaded is $32K.
This new azera is not oging otbe anywhere near $40K loaded - whoever said that. Thats how much a loaded gensis goes for. The azera fits between an sonata and a genesis.
This car crushes the ES and TL in my opinion. Its way nicer and far better looking in exterior and interior appeal and refinement. Plus for $32-33K loaded - its a BARGAIN. HP rating will be 285HP with 260torque with V6 engine.
its already going to blow the maxima, avalon, and Taurus. I have a feeling it will give the ES and TL a run for its money big time.
This is one GORGEOUS car in and out particularly in the black!
This new azera is not oging otbe anywhere near $40K loaded - whoever said that. Thats how much a loaded gensis goes for. The azera fits between an sonata and a genesis.
This car crushes the ES and TL in my opinion. Its way nicer and far better looking in exterior and interior appeal and refinement. Plus for $32-33K loaded - its a BARGAIN. HP rating will be 285HP with 260torque with V6 engine.
its already going to blow the maxima, avalon, and Taurus. I have a feeling it will give the ES and TL a run for its money big time.
This is one GORGEOUS car in and out particularly in the black!
12-23-10, 10:49 AM
#113
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.........................................
12-23-10, 10:50 AM
#114
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The ES and TL interior is a freakin joke compared to the new azera interior. Ill admit there is ACura'ish **** work but the styling is just sexy in this car.
12-23-10, 02:17 PM
#116
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The current gen Azera is selling a little over 250 cars per month. If the new one increases sales by 10 times (unlikely IMO with Sonata below it and Genesis above it) it would be low to mid pack in sales vs. other entry level luxury competitors. A nice car definitely but nothing ground breaking.
12-23-10, 02:24 PM
#117
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You know this is all this sounds like to me in every Hyundai thread, on any auto site. They all turn to crap. I've had my Hyundai buying experience in the past, they had their chance with me and its too late now. I've happily moved on 
Can we all relex
You mean Avalon. People (as in the vast majority) are not going to drop their ES's for a Hyundai Azera, no matter how good it is. Its funny people said "oh the LaCrosse is going to kill the ES" and well the ES continues to sell like it isn't there..
You know what puzzling to me. All Hyundai has done is taken things from different companies and made them a Hyundai. They are just another Vanilla. Toyota, Honda, Nissan should be THANKED for their influence. Its great Hyundai has come this far. However lets not act like people stopped buying those other brands and people are paying over MSRP for Hyundais. That hasn't happened at all.
Case in point the new Sonata. For all its greatness that has been shoved down our throats like Religion to Native Americans it isn't outselling the top cars. It has a $199 lease deal and sells quite frankly to people who like vanilla but want something that looks like a Mercedes CLS. Which is their choice, that is fine. And its a fine car. But note that the Sonata isn't #1 in much anything.
Have you sat in all 3?
You know I will really judge these cars after 100,000 miles and people have owned them for 5-10 years. They are unproven still. Are they much better? Yes and I think this Azera looks great in and out.
I'm one of the few here that likes the current Azera
Can we all relex
You mean Avalon. People (as in the vast majority) are not going to drop their ES's for a Hyundai Azera, no matter how good it is. Its funny people said "oh the LaCrosse is going to kill the ES" and well the ES continues to sell like it isn't there.
. You know what puzzling to me. All Hyundai has done is taken things from different companies and made them a Hyundai. They are just another Vanilla. Toyota, Honda, Nissan should be THANKED for their influence. Its great Hyundai has come this far. However lets not act like people stopped buying those other brands and people are paying over MSRP for Hyundais. That hasn't happened at all.
Case in point the new Sonata. For all its greatness that has been shoved down our throats like Religion to Native Americans it isn't outselling the top cars. It has a $199 lease deal and sells quite frankly to people who like vanilla but want something that looks like a Mercedes CLS. Which is their choice, that is fine. And its a fine car. But note that the Sonata isn't #1 in much anything.
You know I will really judge these cars after 100,000 miles and people have owned them for 5-10 years. They are unproven still. Are they much better? Yes and I think this Azera looks great in and out.
I'm one of the few here that likes the current Azera
Last edited by LexFather; 12-23-10 at 02:54 PM.
12-23-10, 03:17 PM
#118
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^^^ hilarious picture.
12-23-10, 03:35 PM
#120
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U can't compare the new upcoming azera to the current one, the current one is a total fluke of a joke, they cannot give it away. It's probably selling new for the kelly blue book trade in price. It's pathetic.
it all comes down to exterior design, the current azera is majorly lousy.
it all comes down to exterior design, the current azera is majorly lousy.
The current gen Azera is selling a little over 250 cars per month. If the new one increases sales by 10 times (unlikely IMO with Sonata below it and Genesis above it) it would be low to mid pack in sales vs. other entry level luxury competitors. A nice car definitely but nothing ground breaking.