DustinV

Let's pretend I am European. Explain that sentence to me. WHAT DOES IT MEAN?


For your information, most entry-level German cars aren't the stripper cars they were decades ago. Source: KBA

I hate leather. I despise it. I dislike its shiny and rubbery and slippery surface with a passion. To me leather is as annoying as Bill O'Reilly. Do I want a leather-wrapped steering well in my cars? No. I prefer cloth to leather for car seats, I really do. Leather has never appealed to me.

Many luxury cars in the past have used cloth seats, even Cadillacs and Lincolns. It's only recently that everyone seems to equate "real leather" as the only material suitable for luxury car duty. It's not. There have been hundreds of amazing luxury cars that have used cloth, Alcantara or fake leather.

Also, there are no modern European premium cars on the market with manual windows except for the A/B classes from Mercedes', who only have them on the rear doors. You, living in Europe, should be aware of this fact.



Aha. Why do people WANT an Audi or BMW. Why don't they want a Lexus?




Good for them.

Still doesn't stop me from wishing that they offered a simple gasoline or diesel engine in it. The car might then be sold out for six months!

I don't need or particularly want a hybrid but I do like the CT200h. I'm a potential customer "that Lexus lost" because they don't offer enough engine choices. I'll continue driving my (well my wife uses it more often than me nowadays) diesel BMW 118d 5-door.



You do know that in Europe the business of customizing and individualizing a car is part of the appeal of buying a premium vehicle, right?

Every RX450h out there is literally "the same" whereas every X5 is "different". The RX cannot be beat for value, true, but some people are prepared to pay more for a car that will reflect their needs, personality etc. and this is something you can do with an X5 in Europe, but not with an RX. And since the BMW badge is held in higher regard than the Lexus badge, there's no shortage of people willing to spend more for their products.

Where are you from anyway?

DustinV

Most BMW 5ers now sold in Europe have an automatic transmission. Some people still like to "drive" and as it fits in with BMWs sporty image, a manual transmission is a feature that potentially steals sales from Lexus - especially in North America. No Lexus GS comes with a manual transmission. It's the deal breaker for purists - of which there aren't many around.

And as I am sure you have experience with the new 5er, you should be aware that a 520d is a damn fine car. Powerful, agile and yet extremely fuel efficient. Tell me again why I should go for a GS450h? Because it is faster in terms of 0-60 for example?

What good will the faster acceleration do me? People always talk about "buying Car A because it is faster to 60 mph than Car B and much cheaper" - a pretty lame and frankly silly argument. Only a performance nut will think in those terms. Most people out there are happy with the performance of an entry-level luxury car as they're more interested in other aspects of the car.

I would gladly take a BMW 520d over a GS450h. I've ridden in the new 5er and it is much more spacious than the previous E60 5er and far more spacious than the current Lexus GS. If the fourth-generation GS comes as a "GS220d" and is bigger inside, I "may" consider one in the future.

STIG

After reading this thread, now I understand that europeans only care about the badge. They don't mind the cloth seats, manual AC and whimpy 20 hps engine with 3000 rpm limit as long as it comes from their favorite prestigious luxury car maker.

UpSideDown

You seems didn't read or understand DustinV's last 3 replies

dunnojack

anyone with some common sense knows a carmaker has to adapt to the market. the germans have done that in china.

but i wonder how much more of a negative effect import quotas, taxes, tiny dealer network, have had on Lexus than non-adaptation alone.

i don't know if it's true or not, but wikipedia seems to say that Lexus was hindered by the european governments since 1990 , with barriers to entry?

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

lots of fail in these debates here...

some thoughts:

• the north american and european markets are VERY different.
• most people from one market don't understand the other.
• toyota obviously studied the u.s. market very hard before launching lexus here.
• it looks like they barely studied europe at all before launching lexus there.
• they also seem to not put much effort into it since.
• the CT may be a better fit in europe, which is good for them, but they've got a huge long way to go to show up on the radar there.
• lexus simply doesn't have enough variations of models to do well in europe.
• ranting that europeans don't get lexus is pointless and wrong (see above points)
• i submit that in the u.s. even lexus does not compete with mercedes, bmw, and audi, as much as some would like to believe they do - i suspect there's very little cross shopping

dunnojack

ya think? why do you say that?

i cross shop them. except audi, which i don't care about.
and i think many here on this forum have done so too.

spwolf

Anyone would take 5450h over 520d if they didnt have to pay for it.
Europeans like nice equipment as much as americans, but due to taxes, they have to pay for it dearly.

I know you are trying to tell me that european like cheap cloth seats, like manual air conditioning and 102hp Audi's... Not really. They like affordable Audi/BMW they can afford and still drive the badge.

I dont think half of your problems are an issue Europe-wide. I was interested in X1, and half of them are exactly the same. Why? Because it is the cheapest option.



For me thats not really luxury that i am supposed to pay 50k for.

spwolf

what does that even mean? You dont need frugal vehicle that will last 2x more than average modern diesel? You do not want most reliable powertrain on the market today? You want to have problems with turbo's, clutches, injectors, fuel filters and cats?

Ah, you also want plastic steering wheels.

Awesome.

Recognize this?



I bet you want manual aircon, because you hate those auto climate control systems, right?

DFGeneer

Lexus should stick to hybrids and I'm sure they will. This simply is the better technology in terms of refinment, emissions and fuel economy.
The IS220d never sold well anyway.
However, DustinV is absolutely right about the lack of more engine choices.
If there was IS350 available here (Switzerland) I would have gone with it. Instead I preferred to stick to my old IS300.

Big Andy

Yeah, but you wouldn't be paying 50k for that would you? At current exchange rates that 4WD BMW X1 (with climate control) costs $33k + VAT. For another $1.5k you can have it with full leather and wood.

spwolf

not in my country :-). It is $50k USD for that crap above.

i also want to get 1 yr used, and 90% is base SE above.

I dont really care for leather (especially not base one with base seats), BMW has optional other cloth seats, with extenders, etc, and definitely better cloth design... that above looks like something between Yaris and Auris.

chikoo

Every market is different and has it's own share of perceptions. People in India rejected Vespa brand scooters but bought Bajaj brand scooters that were built using 20 yr old Vespa design.

chikoo

Along similar lines, Coca-cola tried to buy and eliminate the Thumps-up brand, but it was so popular that they acquired it and made it their flagship brand in India.

chikoo

In essence, do not underestimate the power / influence of the common native population.