European Identity Crisis for Lexus
04-17-11, 06:17 PM
#31
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I don't get the whole European heritage thing as being among their primary purchase criteria. Having brand preferences is perfectly normal, even in the US, but totally dismissing a great brand like Lexus just because they don't have a 100 years under their belt is ludicrous. I know there's other factors involved as discussed in the thread which are understandable. The steps Lexus would have to take to sell in Europe would defeat what a Lexus is supposed to be. Cloth seats? 4-bangers? Half the features? Harsh rides? If MB and BMW want to diminish their cars down to mainstream levels, that's their business. But that's not Lexus.
Essentially, aren't Europeans simultaneously complaining that Lexus's are "just fancy Toyota's" with no real heritage and prestige but also saying they are too expensive, too loaded, too powerful, ect...???
If you dumb down a Lexus for European buyers, then you basically have a Toyota Camry. With such an impossible predicament, it seems Lexus will never win in Europe.
Essentially, aren't Europeans simultaneously complaining that Lexus's are "just fancy Toyota's" with no real heritage and prestige but also saying they are too expensive, too loaded, too powerful, ect...???
If you dumb down a Lexus for European buyers, then you basically have a Toyota Camry. With such an impossible predicament, it seems Lexus will never win in Europe.
Last edited by -J-P-L-; 04-17-11 at 06:25 PM.
04-17-11, 08:30 PM
#32
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Where do I claim that "everything Europe makes is gold"?
Your love for Lexus is admirable, but sometimes I feel you get "to emotional" defending your favorite brand. In no way was I trying to put Lexus down. I simply stated some opinions based on observation and facts of why I think Lexus is not finding ground in Europe.
What works in North America won't work in Europe and vice versa. Lexus was designed for the North American consumer, not the European. It's only logical that Lexus will succeed in North America while its European sales will be less than favorable. Lexus has done little to try and adapt their cars for Europe. That's the brutal truth. Luxury styles and expectations are different all across the globe. The European brands have adapted their cars to appeal to local tastes globally - Lexus has only recently been doing this for markets like China and very recently Europe (CT200h).
"Selective"? I didn't dive into specifics.
How do you know that the "economy cars" Mercedes' sold in the 1930s were "crappy"?
First of all, those "economy cars" were still out of reach for the common man. The "economy cars" Mercedes' sold in the '30s were failures from a sales point of view. The company made a name for themselves with their luxury, grand tourers, racing cars and aircraft engines as well as trucks and buses. Mercedes "economy cars" didn't really come to the market until the A and B classes - and those aren't really economy cars.
Second, Mercedes, like any other company, had to make a profit. Introducing more affordable cars to the market is a logical step. Branding and marketing in those days was different than it is today. Back then you could sell all sorts of vehicles under a single brand name. It worked.
Well guess what? That's part of their history and heritage.
The BMW Isetta is an iconic car, mind you. And you're forgetting something important. After World War II not many people in Europe could afford "real cars". This was still the era of three-wheelers and various bubble cars and even a Volkswagen Beetle was a very expensive product and out of reach of most people. Car brands had to adapt to the era and the BMW Isetta saved BMW. Ask most people of the time if they thought the Isetta was a "crappy little economy car" and the standard response you'll get is most likely: "No, it was a car that got me from A to B. It was one of the few luxuries I owned in those days."
Toyota nearly went out of business in the 1950s. What saved them? The United States Army and the Korean War. They built trucks for the United States Army. It's part of their history and heritage.
Let's be realistic here for a moment. It's not only the lack of pedigree that is affecting Lexus sales in Europe, it's the fact that they've not adapted to the European market.
The European brands have adapted their cars to the North American market for example. Americans wants power and features and the European brands react accordingly. In Europe people want the ability to customize their car with the features they want and they want to have a choice of engines so they can select the one they feel suits their needs best.
There are definitely a ton of people here that want to buy a Lexus and try something new. So what's keeping them from buying one? The lack of dealers, the lack of different trims and probably the top spot - the high fuel bills. Just because I can afford an LS460 doesn't mean I don't care about fuel economy, because I do. Many wealthy Europeans own big cars like an S class Mercedes or 7er BMW, but with an economical diesel engine. Oh yes, they could have bought an S500 or a 750i, but they want the car and less stops at the gas station - this is a literal generalization.
The lack of brand heritage is a problem, but it can be overcome through products that are actually competitive across the board. Lexus in Europe is simply not competitive as a brand. Individual cars can compete nicely with their German rivals, but only individual cars. A Lexus IS220d competes with a BMW 320d or MB C220 CDI, but where's the Lexus IS competitor to the say MB C350 or BMW 335i (IS350 is not sold here) or to the C250 CDI or BMW 325d? Where's the GS wagon that competes with the estates from the German brands? And where are the diesels?
Lexus has taken to heart some modern "misguided" American interpretations (that actually work in Europe) such as:
1) wagons are not luxurious
2) smaller engines are not luxurious
3) diesels are not luxurious or reliable because GM demonstrated that
4) cloth seats are not luxurious (in the 1940s and 1950s even Cadillac and Lincoln offered high quality cars with CLOTH SEATS)
Again, this all comes down to ADAPTING THE PRODUCT for specific markets. Lexus literally sells the same cars tailored for the American market globally - it's not the recipe for success if we're honest.
Again, the S250 CDI is not "crappy".
Let me ask you something. Have you driven an S250 CDI? Have you even experienced it? I have. It's an amazing car that doesn't sound or drive like a 4-cylinder diesel engine would be expected to drive. It's almost unreal how refined this car is. Yet the fact remains that it is a 4-cylinder engine that is powering this car. To me that's not a big deal. If I wanted an S class, I want an S class and I am not a performance nut. To me the features and luxury inside the car is far more important as is the comfort and safety. The benefit of the 4-cylinder diesel is the fuel economy - and it's certainly not slow. My boss drove the car in a sporty fashion and I was pleasantly surprised at the agility and response (you read that right) of the car.
You need to experience this car before making comments about it. Experiencing a car first-hand is where true opinions can be formed. Do you agree?
The S class has always been an innovative car in which ground-breaking technology has premiered. Do you agree? I think you do.
What we are seeing here is essentially a repeat of the late 1970s. The United States market received 5-cylinder turbodiesel Mercedes S classes with 115-horsepower. Yep, the flagship of Mercedes-Benz got a 5-cylinder turbodiesel engine. How do you think that sounded back then?
Performance by most accounts was modest, not slow, but modest (14 seconds 0-60 was "quick" for a diesel of that era) but the gas mileage was pretty impressive. That's what sold the car. The fuel economy and the fact that the car was an S class Mercedes. The turbodiesel S classes were a smashing sales success until about the early 1990s when gas prices stabilized and people began caring less about fuel economy again.
Today we have the S250 CDI, which has one cylinder less than those 1970s S class turbodiesels, yet is faster, more refined, more efficient and far more luxurious. What's the problem? It's a car for people who want an S class that gets good gas mileage. And in this day and age, with rising fuel prices, emissions regulations etc. it makes far more sense than an S550.
I agree that the CT200h is the most advanced car in its class, but that stunt doesn't work in Europe. I know that back home the "most advanced car" is a great way to increase sales, but not in Europe apparently. None of the big German three market their cars as "advanced". The A/B classes sell based on safety and interior space, the 1er is marketed as RWD and sporty and the A3 is presented as the only car that offers AWD in its class. All of these cars have efficient engine options as well as performance engines (A/B200 Turbo, 130i and S3 Sportback). This is where the appeal comes from - and the badges.
I have no problems with Lexus offering the CT200h as it is. It'll find buyers.
BUT - a plain and simple gasoline and diesel option, sans the hybrid setup, would also have been a safer choice for those people who don't want or need a hybrid. It would have guaranteed those "extra sales" to people who'd otherwise gone to a BMW dealership to tick the box on a 118d.
I've stated before that the Lexus CT200h is the only Lexus that I would want to own in Europe (the IS is to small for me). It's the perfect car for me and my wife (if she can get all her equipment in the back) but I personally would have preferred a simple gasoline or diesel engine upfront. I'm sure many Europeans feel the same way as I do about the CT200h and its engine setup.
I think Lexus has far more potential in Europe than Infiniti. The Infiniti lineup is even less competitive than Lexus. Infiniti is making the same mistake that Lexus has been doing for two decades in Europe and is only recently trying to correct.
Lexus simply needs to adapt their products to Europe. I cannot stress that enough. ADAPT. ADAPT the product for a specific market. It's been done before in the past and has worked. Even if Lexus doesn't have the impressive brand history of its rivals, it can appeal to people and compete with the right market adaptation.
The problem is split down 50-50. Half the fault belongs to Lexus for failing to understand the European market, half the fault lies with the European consumer, who is very nationalistic by nature, but also wants a product suited to their needs - which the European brands are clearly offering and Lexus isn't.
The CT200h is a great start, but it'll need more engine choices. That's possibly one of the biggest errors Lexus makes in the European market. Their cars have at most, two engine choices and in most cases these are overpowered and inefficient V6 or V8 engines. The Germans sells these types of engine to, but they also offer a whole range of efficient diesels and gasoline engines thus providing the market, and the consumer, with a selection of engines best suited to their needs.
I always enjoy a good argument. I am a very busy man, though, so my responses might be a bit late.
Your love for Lexus is admirable, but sometimes I feel you get "to emotional" defending your favorite brand. In no way was I trying to put Lexus down. I simply stated some opinions based on observation and facts of why I think Lexus is not finding ground in Europe.
What works in North America won't work in Europe and vice versa. Lexus was designed for the North American consumer, not the European. It's only logical that Lexus will succeed in North America while its European sales will be less than favorable. Lexus has done little to try and adapt their cars for Europe. That's the brutal truth. Luxury styles and expectations are different all across the globe. The European brands have adapted their cars to appeal to local tastes globally - Lexus has only recently been doing this for markets like China and very recently Europe (CT200h).
"Selective"? I didn't dive into specifics.
How do you know that the "economy cars" Mercedes' sold in the 1930s were "crappy"?
First of all, those "economy cars" were still out of reach for the common man. The "economy cars" Mercedes' sold in the '30s were failures from a sales point of view. The company made a name for themselves with their luxury, grand tourers, racing cars and aircraft engines as well as trucks and buses. Mercedes "economy cars" didn't really come to the market until the A and B classes - and those aren't really economy cars.
Second, Mercedes, like any other company, had to make a profit. Introducing more affordable cars to the market is a logical step. Branding and marketing in those days was different than it is today. Back then you could sell all sorts of vehicles under a single brand name. It worked.
Well guess what? That's part of their history and heritage.
The BMW Isetta is an iconic car, mind you. And you're forgetting something important. After World War II not many people in Europe could afford "real cars". This was still the era of three-wheelers and various bubble cars and even a Volkswagen Beetle was a very expensive product and out of reach of most people. Car brands had to adapt to the era and the BMW Isetta saved BMW. Ask most people of the time if they thought the Isetta was a "crappy little economy car" and the standard response you'll get is most likely: "No, it was a car that got me from A to B. It was one of the few luxuries I owned in those days."
Toyota nearly went out of business in the 1950s. What saved them? The United States Army and the Korean War. They built trucks for the United States Army. It's part of their history and heritage.
Let's be realistic here for a moment. It's not only the lack of pedigree that is affecting Lexus sales in Europe, it's the fact that they've not adapted to the European market.
The European brands have adapted their cars to the North American market for example. Americans wants power and features and the European brands react accordingly. In Europe people want the ability to customize their car with the features they want and they want to have a choice of engines so they can select the one they feel suits their needs best.
There are definitely a ton of people here that want to buy a Lexus and try something new. So what's keeping them from buying one? The lack of dealers, the lack of different trims and probably the top spot - the high fuel bills. Just because I can afford an LS460 doesn't mean I don't care about fuel economy, because I do. Many wealthy Europeans own big cars like an S class Mercedes or 7er BMW, but with an economical diesel engine. Oh yes, they could have bought an S500 or a 750i, but they want the car and less stops at the gas station - this is a literal generalization.
The lack of brand heritage is a problem, but it can be overcome through products that are actually competitive across the board. Lexus in Europe is simply not competitive as a brand. Individual cars can compete nicely with their German rivals, but only individual cars. A Lexus IS220d competes with a BMW 320d or MB C220 CDI, but where's the Lexus IS competitor to the say MB C350 or BMW 335i (IS350 is not sold here) or to the C250 CDI or BMW 325d? Where's the GS wagon that competes with the estates from the German brands? And where are the diesels?
Lexus has taken to heart some modern "misguided" American interpretations (that actually work in Europe) such as:
1) wagons are not luxurious
2) smaller engines are not luxurious
3) diesels are not luxurious or reliable because GM demonstrated that
4) cloth seats are not luxurious (in the 1940s and 1950s even Cadillac and Lincoln offered high quality cars with CLOTH SEATS)
Again, this all comes down to ADAPTING THE PRODUCT for specific markets. Lexus literally sells the same cars tailored for the American market globally - it's not the recipe for success if we're honest.
Again, the S250 CDI is not "crappy".
Let me ask you something. Have you driven an S250 CDI? Have you even experienced it? I have. It's an amazing car that doesn't sound or drive like a 4-cylinder diesel engine would be expected to drive. It's almost unreal how refined this car is. Yet the fact remains that it is a 4-cylinder engine that is powering this car. To me that's not a big deal. If I wanted an S class, I want an S class and I am not a performance nut. To me the features and luxury inside the car is far more important as is the comfort and safety. The benefit of the 4-cylinder diesel is the fuel economy - and it's certainly not slow. My boss drove the car in a sporty fashion and I was pleasantly surprised at the agility and response (you read that right) of the car.
You need to experience this car before making comments about it. Experiencing a car first-hand is where true opinions can be formed. Do you agree?
The S class has always been an innovative car in which ground-breaking technology has premiered. Do you agree? I think you do.
What we are seeing here is essentially a repeat of the late 1970s. The United States market received 5-cylinder turbodiesel Mercedes S classes with 115-horsepower. Yep, the flagship of Mercedes-Benz got a 5-cylinder turbodiesel engine. How do you think that sounded back then?
Performance by most accounts was modest, not slow, but modest (14 seconds 0-60 was "quick" for a diesel of that era) but the gas mileage was pretty impressive. That's what sold the car. The fuel economy and the fact that the car was an S class Mercedes. The turbodiesel S classes were a smashing sales success until about the early 1990s when gas prices stabilized and people began caring less about fuel economy again.
Today we have the S250 CDI, which has one cylinder less than those 1970s S class turbodiesels, yet is faster, more refined, more efficient and far more luxurious. What's the problem? It's a car for people who want an S class that gets good gas mileage. And in this day and age, with rising fuel prices, emissions regulations etc. it makes far more sense than an S550.
I agree that the CT200h is the most advanced car in its class, but that stunt doesn't work in Europe. I know that back home the "most advanced car" is a great way to increase sales, but not in Europe apparently. None of the big German three market their cars as "advanced". The A/B classes sell based on safety and interior space, the 1er is marketed as RWD and sporty and the A3 is presented as the only car that offers AWD in its class. All of these cars have efficient engine options as well as performance engines (A/B200 Turbo, 130i and S3 Sportback). This is where the appeal comes from - and the badges.
I have no problems with Lexus offering the CT200h as it is. It'll find buyers.
BUT - a plain and simple gasoline and diesel option, sans the hybrid setup, would also have been a safer choice for those people who don't want or need a hybrid. It would have guaranteed those "extra sales" to people who'd otherwise gone to a BMW dealership to tick the box on a 118d.
I've stated before that the Lexus CT200h is the only Lexus that I would want to own in Europe (the IS is to small for me). It's the perfect car for me and my wife (if she can get all her equipment in the back) but I personally would have preferred a simple gasoline or diesel engine upfront. I'm sure many Europeans feel the same way as I do about the CT200h and its engine setup.
I think Lexus has far more potential in Europe than Infiniti. The Infiniti lineup is even less competitive than Lexus. Infiniti is making the same mistake that Lexus has been doing for two decades in Europe and is only recently trying to correct.
Lexus simply needs to adapt their products to Europe. I cannot stress that enough. ADAPT. ADAPT the product for a specific market. It's been done before in the past and has worked. Even if Lexus doesn't have the impressive brand history of its rivals, it can appeal to people and compete with the right market adaptation.
The problem is split down 50-50. Half the fault belongs to Lexus for failing to understand the European market, half the fault lies with the European consumer, who is very nationalistic by nature, but also wants a product suited to their needs - which the European brands are clearly offering and Lexus isn't.
The CT200h is a great start, but it'll need more engine choices. That's possibly one of the biggest errors Lexus makes in the European market. Their cars have at most, two engine choices and in most cases these are overpowered and inefficient V6 or V8 engines. The Germans sells these types of engine to, but they also offer a whole range of efficient diesels and gasoline engines thus providing the market, and the consumer, with a selection of engines best suited to their needs.
I always enjoy a good argument. I am a very busy man, though, so my responses might be a bit late.
You missed the entire jest of what I was saying. Gavin Green just wanted to rip on Lexus without getting to the true core of the problem. Its just another "Slap Lexus/Lexus sucks" article. It seems to be all the rage.
I don't appreciate your condensending tone in regards to my liking of Lexus. My apologies for having owned them for 15 years year and being a very happy owner. It seems its perfectly fine for people to be fans of other brands b/c they are sporty or Euro but a Lexus fan can't represent Lexus without being ridiculed.
I didn't throw in your face that you post mostly in Euro threads drooling over 80hp cars and cloth seats. If thats your bag, fine with me. We don't even agree on Lexus struggles in Europe and adapting. That is not the issue. Quite frankly Europeans being the badge*****s they are doesn't really upset me either, we do the same here, just less so with cars. Its why Hyundai is selling their Genesis and Equuus here and not in Europe. We would actually buy them.
I mean quite frankly Americans are not as stupid as European magazines make us to be. You guys there are happy with 100hp 5000lbs luxury vehicles we would laugh at here. What does Europe do to hold its image? The Germans send us all their large engine vehicles, trying to pawn off superiority. However if I land in Berlin after a flight, my cab wiil be an E-class. I guess we just have higher standards here in regards to luxury. Europe is happy with a badge, a windscreen and optional doors.
Again Lexus has only sold big engines and loaded vehicles and arguably are more prestigious in regards to those features. However Europeans rather buy a black BMW with cloth and a manual where it works 200 days out of the year b/c they think somehow its related to Beowulf and has heritage. As a member stated, if Lexus dumbs down their vehicles, then the Euro mags will just say "get a Toyota".
The Americans and Japanese have jumped on hybrids, the next evolution of the automobile. Europeans are stuck thinking diesels are so superior. They won't even give a hybrid a chance. Its funny Lexus is being told to adapt but Europe is not adapting to hybrids, instead just being stubborn about them. Europeans love saying how the Germans lead with technology and Lexus has kicked their collective asses in regards to hybrids. Instead of being admired for it, its swept under the rug or not acknowledged. All the while, they come with their own hybrids.
The bottom line is the article was rubbish as he just wanted to rip Lexus and the CT and didn't address the real issues we have in this thread. If he would have done that, I would have had no issue with the article.
04-18-11, 07:14 AM
#33
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
totally dismissing a great brand like Lexus just because they don't have a 100 years under their belt is ludicrous.
The steps Lexus would have to take to sell in Europe would defeat what a Lexus is supposed to be. Cloth seats? 4-bangers? Half the features? Harsh rides?
If MB and BMW want to diminish their cars down to mainstream levels, that's their business. But that's not Lexus.
again, seeing the european market through a u.s. perspective doesn't work, and vice versa.
I mean quite frankly Americans are not as stupid as European magazines make us to be. You guys there are happy with 100hp 5000lbs luxury vehicles we would laugh at here. What does Europe do to hold its image? The Germans send us all their large engine vehicles, trying to pawn off superiority.
european condescension of the rest of the world is nothing new - it's been going on for millennia.
I guess we just have higher standards here in regards to luxury. Europe is happy with a badge, a windscreen and optional doors.
saying americans have higher standards in regards to luxury is ridiculous. over new year's i was in paris, and to say it was luxurious is an understatement, and i saw bentleys, s-class (all types), high end audis and bmws all over the place.
just because germany has stripped e class cabs doesn't mean europe doesn't appreciate luxury. a stripped diesel e class cab is PRACTICAL - it's roomy, reliable, and frugal and will withstand abuse.
Again Lexus has only sold big engines and loaded vehicles and arguably are more prestigious in regards to those features. However Europeans rather buy a black BMW with cloth and a manual where it works 200 days out of the year b/c they think somehow its related to Beowulf and has heritage.
As a member stated, if Lexus dumbs down their vehicles, then the Euro mags will just say "get a Toyota".
getting back to the original author's point - lexus' message IS confused, there, and everywhere, i've said it over and over. but i think they're gradually figuring it out. but then the CT comes along and the message seems muddled again - sporty, green, slow, luxurious but not really, hatch but not roomy, but i predict they will SOFTEN its suspension in a refresh, just like they did with the IS-F and probably make some more features standard like dimming rear view mirror or heated seats.
The Americans and Japanese have jumped on hybrids, the next evolution of the automobile. Europeans are stuck thinking diesels are so superior.
They won't even give a hybrid a chance.
Europeans love saying how the Germans lead with technology and Lexus has kicked their collective asses in regards to hybrids.
The bottom line is the article was rubbish
04-18-11, 08:54 AM
#34
Guest
Posts: n/a
now sorry mike, i gotta call it - that's condescending, and just stupid.
saying americans have higher standards in regards to luxury is ridiculous. over new year's i was in paris, and to say it was luxurious is an understatement, and i saw bentleys, s-class (all types), high end audis and bmws all over the place.
just because germany has stripped e class cabs doesn't mean europe doesn't appreciate luxury. a stripped diesel e class cab is PRACTICAL - it's roomy, reliable, and frugal and will withstand abuse.
I tire of Americans getting crapped on by the Euro press as if their streets are paved with gold and they can do no wrong. The facts are Americans buy loaded European cars and make them hugely profitable. Americans should be thanked. We rarely have bought the stripper luxury cars Europeans so love so much.
Of course the Euros make some incredible luxury cars that no one can match. However they are by far the rarely bought vehicles.
again, come on mike, you can do better. so just because lexus doesn't sell more in europe it's europeans fault and lexus has no fault? how many dealers in europe? how much do they advertise? how much have they tailored their product line to what SELLS in europe? not many, not much, and not much!
My points surely are more accurate than Mr. Green's. That said Europeans are stuck in their ways and clearly are not giving others a fair shake there. Us, well look at how they came here and now dominate the luxury car market. Seems we are more open-minded. Instead of being applauded, Americans are bashed.
if there's not enough differentiation, then that's right. bmw and mercedes don't have 'other' cheaper similar brands, but audi has vw of course - wonder if those comparisons happen? possibly not because audi has CAREFULLY managed the brand for decades, advertises heavily, has a great dealer network, and has won countless rallye event over there. their quattro system is revered there.
getting back to the original author's point - lexus' message IS confused, there, and everywhere, i've said it over and over. but i think they're gradually figuring it out. but then the CT comes along and the message seems muddled again - sporty, green, slow, luxurious but not really, hatch but not roomy, but i predict they will SOFTEN its suspension in a refresh, just like they did with the IS-F and probably make some more features standard like dimming rear view mirror or heated seats.
getting back to the original author's point - lexus' message IS confused, there, and everywhere, i've said it over and over. but i think they're gradually figuring it out. but then the CT comes along and the message seems muddled again - sporty, green, slow, luxurious but not really, hatch but not roomy, but i predict they will SOFTEN its suspension in a refresh, just like they did with the IS-F and probably make some more features standard like dimming rear view mirror or heated seats.
I mean Audi sells base FWD 4 cylinder A4s here then a R8 super car? That isn't confusing as well? Oh I get it, its German and Audi=Quattro even if the cars don't have it.
there's DECADES of satisfaction with diesels, unlike u.s./japan, so that's not going to change over night.
you're not recognizing that it takes time, plus with so few dealers and advertising, the word just doesn't get out very fast.
sorry, the RX450h is the only decent one. GS trunk room (and rear seat room) is a joke compared to a diesel 5 series and so just isn't practical. HS is fugly and i don't even know if it's sold in europe. LS600hL doesn't even get great mileage so what's the point?
i disagree. his point about lexus being schizophrenic is dead on.
you're not recognizing that it takes time, plus with so few dealers and advertising, the word just doesn't get out very fast.
sorry, the RX450h is the only decent one. GS trunk room (and rear seat room) is a joke compared to a diesel 5 series and so just isn't practical. HS is fugly and i don't even know if it's sold in europe. LS600hL doesn't even get great mileage so what's the point?
i disagree. his point about lexus being schizophrenic is dead on.
Lexus lone diesel model was not class leading and they simply will not outsell Germans selling diesels. I think hybrids are a better strategy.
Again its funny to me that we can accuse all the Euro brands of being schizophrenic but somehow that only applies to Lexus. I find it the funniest thing ever'
-people/mags complain Lexus isn't sporty
-Lexus tries to get sportier
-people/mags complain Lexus is now stupid for going sporty
04-18-11, 11:03 AM
#35
Yes Bitkahuna, like CT200h, and the car has started as best seller for Lexus in Europe :-).
Were not you one of the people who thought it wasnt true Lexus? But when conversation comes to BMW, then it is fine for BMW to have same kind of equipment as CT? :-).
People in Europe dont buy Audi because of Quattro, or "countless rally events" (Audi competes in rally???), they buy it because they look great, feel premium and are cheaper than BMW or MB.
Thats not Lexus intention (to have entry level Premium brand) and Lexus does not want to sell cars like that, nor does it need to (they have Toyota for those). Otherwise you would see Valvematic 133hp 1.6l CT which is a lot better engine than 102hp A3 1.6l from the stone ages.
Were not you one of the people who thought it wasnt true Lexus? But when conversation comes to BMW, then it is fine for BMW to have same kind of equipment as CT? :-).
People in Europe dont buy Audi because of Quattro, or "countless rally events" (Audi competes in rally???), they buy it because they look great, feel premium and are cheaper than BMW or MB.
Thats not Lexus intention (to have entry level Premium brand) and Lexus does not want to sell cars like that, nor does it need to (they have Toyota for those). Otherwise you would see Valvematic 133hp 1.6l CT which is a lot better engine than 102hp A3 1.6l from the stone ages.
04-18-11, 11:07 AM
#36
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Its just funny to me people crap on the Ford Crown Vic for instance for being a Taxi Cab but for the E-class, oh its okay. The Double Standard again.
I tire of Americans getting crapped on by the Euro press as if their streets are paved with gold and they can do no wrong.
The facts are Americans buy loaded European cars and make them hugely profitable.
Americans should be thanked.
you say europeans act like their streets are paved with gold yet now you're saying they should grovel and thank americans? it is what it is. they've offered cars americans like. americans bought them. enough said.
We rarely have bought the stripper luxury cars Europeans so love so much.
Of course the Euros make some incredible luxury cars that no one can match. However they are by far the rarely bought vehicles.
That said Europeans are stuck in their ways and clearly are not giving others a fair shake there.
Us, well look at how they came here and now dominate the luxury car market. Seems we are more open-minded. Instead of being applauded, Americans are bashed.
lexus' BODY BLOW in 1989(?) was perfectly executed with great follow-up (SC, for example, and later RX, although the 1GS was a misfire and the 2SC was a dud really). but mb and bmw have regrouped, learned, and are executing well now. it's a wonderful time for consumers. lexus is doing well in the u.s., but the honeymoon is over.
Most European luxury cars are not sport package vehicles. They are stripped out models with fat tires that don't handle nearly as well.
The Germans offer anything there from a pint sized A1 the size of my foot to a V-12 super sedan. How is that now confusing? How is that any different?
to expand sales, eventually these brands have to add models and again, market analysis told them i'm sure that a 1 series for example was necessary to attract a younger single buyer as the 3 got bigger and bigger and more expensive over time. any brand wants to get consumers 'on the train' and upsell them over time.
BMW sells 4 SUVs now, more than Lexus. Instead of being bashed for being a German Jeep, they are applauded for having them.
so branding and positioning and consistency is hugely important. one of your favorite companies Apple understand this. that's why the iphone 5 won't be called the x-phone.
As I recall in the early 2000s after the GX debuted, Lexus was ripped on for having 3 SUVs and selling them. Funny how that double standard works.
Well Lexus is going to a hybrid only strategy in Europe so they better get their marketing/cars together. I agree the first gen of Lexus hybrid sedans have been challenging and hopefully they get better in the future. Someone had to start somewhere and again the competition is now following.
Lexus lone diesel model was not class leading and they simply will not outsell Germans selling diesels. I think hybrids are a better strategy.
Lexus lone diesel model was not class leading and they simply will not outsell Germans selling diesels. I think hybrids are a better strategy.
lexus came out with a diesel that was DOA. bad move, and does more damage than they realize. that's actually disrespecting the euro consumer, which isn't a great thing to do if you're trying to build a brand.
Again its funny to me that we can accuse all the Euro brands of being schizophrenic but somehow that only applies to Lexus. I find it the funniest thing ever'
04-18-11, 11:07 AM
#37
p.s. i have stated many times why Lexus experienced drop in sales (they sold 70k cars in 2007 in complete Europe, including russia) vs 27k in 2010.
a. Their IS and GS models do not have enough space (IS would be used as family car, and GS would be used as company car with 4 people inside).
b. Their engines do not go low enough. I guess that will be fixed in the future with hybrids.
c. Their equipment levels are not cheap enough.
With new GS, IS and CTh, as well as lower hybrid for RX, Lexus has potential to do 100k in Europe. I think thats their goal by 2015 and they plan to do it while not cheapening the brand. Lexus is not going after huge volumes and they shouldnt be.
a. Their IS and GS models do not have enough space (IS would be used as family car, and GS would be used as company car with 4 people inside).
b. Their engines do not go low enough. I guess that will be fixed in the future with hybrids.
c. Their equipment levels are not cheap enough.
With new GS, IS and CTh, as well as lower hybrid for RX, Lexus has potential to do 100k in Europe. I think thats their goal by 2015 and they plan to do it while not cheapening the brand. Lexus is not going after huge volumes and they shouldnt be.
04-18-11, 11:13 AM
#38
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People in Europe dont buy Audi because of Quattro, or "countless rally events" (Audi competes in rally???), they buy it because they look great, feel premium and are cheaper than BMW or MB.
Thats not Lexus intention (to have entry level Premium brand) and Lexus does not want to sell cars like that, nor does it need to (they have Toyota for those). Otherwise you would see Valvematic 133hp 1.6l CT which is a lot better engine than 102hp A3 1.6l from the stone ages.
to mike: what lexus is doing in europe is similar to what euro-brands do in the u.s. - limited, more upscale line-up, because it's the only way it's feasible for now.
thing is though, lexus came on the u.s. with a huge POW of a marketing blitz, quite uncharacteristic for a conservative japanese company, and hey, it worked fabulously. they need to do the same in europe, but maybe they don't see a payback.
04-18-11, 11:22 AM
#40
i don't believe i said ct is not a true lexus. i believe i've said it's a confused message. being promoted as sporty when it isn't particularly. i would go to the mat promoting it as wonderfully quiet in a world of excessive noise, and also getting exceptional fuel economy, in a world of high prices. in other words, travel in peace, without breaking the bank. .
.So i think they learned and adapted, and Toyota is a bit slow but they are like Borg.
Real message here is that Lexus is never going to outsell BMW/Audi/MB in outside markets because thats not what they are aiming for, they do try to sell more "premium" cars and use Toyota for rest.
For instance, they could easily sell tons CT160's, CT180s, CT200d's if they priced them close to A3... Probably talking 60k-70k easily even more if they had bigger dealer network. But why? There is Auris with Xenons, Leather, Smart Entry, Smart Nav, etc.
Maybe that will change in the future, who knows, so far thats is also significant reason.
04-18-11, 12:14 PM
#41
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Lexus' strength is 1. customer service, 2. reliability 3. quite and smooth 4. design.
so let's see.
customer service will take a while to be kick in.
Europeans don't really care about reliability, they got more vacations in a year than they can spend (i believe they have a least 2x more payed vacation than most U.S. companies) . pretty sure they won't mind take a day or two to fix their cars every once a while.
design. honestly, European's design is probably better than Lexus (lexus is improving very quickly)
so you biggest sellig point is quite and smooth, which may/may not be everyone's preference.
so let's see.
customer service will take a while to be kick in.
Europeans don't really care about reliability, they got more vacations in a year than they can spend (i believe they have a least 2x more payed vacation than most U.S. companies) . pretty sure they won't mind take a day or two to fix their cars every once a while.
design. honestly, European's design is probably better than Lexus (lexus is improving very quickly)
so you biggest sellig point is quite and smooth, which may/may not be everyone's preference.
04-18-11, 12:38 PM
#42
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So i think they learned and adapted, and Toyota is a bit slow but they are like Borg.
but certainly their track record is excellent.
Real message here is that Lexus is never going to outsell BMW/Audi/MB in outside markets because thats not what they are aiming for, they do try to sell more "premium" cars and use Toyota for rest.
as for what they're aiming for, no doubt higher sales over time, profitably!
For instance, they could easily sell tons CT160's, CT180s, CT200d's if they priced them close to A3... Probably talking 60k-70k easily even more if they had bigger dealer network. But why? There is Auris with Xenons, Leather, Smart Entry, Smart Nav, etc.
04-18-11, 12:40 PM
#43
I don't get the whole European heritage thing as being among their primary purchase criteria. Having brand preferences is perfectly normal, even in the US, but totally dismissing a great brand like Lexus just because they don't have a 100 years under their belt is ludicrous. I know there's other factors involved as discussed in the thread which are understandable. The steps Lexus would have to take to sell in Europe would defeat what a Lexus is supposed to be. Cloth seats? 4-bangers? Half the features? Harsh rides? If MB and BMW want to diminish their cars down to mainstream levels, that's their business. But that's not Lexus.
Essentially, aren't Europeans simultaneously complaining that Lexus's are "just fancy Toyota's" with no real heritage and prestige but also saying they are too expensive, too loaded, too powerful, ect...??? If you dumb down a Lexus for European buyers, then you basically have a Toyota Camry. With such an impossible predicament, it seems Lexus will never win in Europe.
Essentially, aren't Europeans simultaneously complaining that Lexus's are "just fancy Toyota's" with no real heritage and prestige but also saying they are too expensive, too loaded, too powerful, ect...???
If you dumb down a Lexus for European buyers, then you basically have a Toyota Camry. With such an impossible predicament, it seems Lexus will never win in Europe.Sure maybe not Audi numbers but that doesnt matter... BMW/AUDI/MB cheaper versions are discounted by fleets on average 30% and used as tax-writeoff company cars. Lexus will simply never do that.
so put all those other things aside, give them good car at good price, europeans will buy it... since lexus is not an value brand, they "simply" need to build great cars :-).
04-18-11, 01:41 PM
#44
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thats some media but very few amount of buyers... give them good car and great price, europeans will buy a lot of Lexus.
Sure maybe not Audi numbers but that doesnt matter... BMW/AUDI/MB cheaper versions are discounted by fleets on average 30% and used as tax-writeoff company cars. Lexus will simply never do that.
so put all those other things aside, give them good car at good price, europeans will buy it... since lexus is not an value brand, they "simply" need to build great cars :-).
Sure maybe not Audi numbers but that doesnt matter... BMW/AUDI/MB cheaper versions are discounted by fleets on average 30% and used as tax-writeoff company cars. Lexus will simply never do that.
so put all those other things aside, give them good car at good price, europeans will buy it... since lexus is not an value brand, they "simply" need to build great cars :-).
However, you say they'll buy a good car at a good price. Well, in America, a Lexus is always lower priced than the German competitor and, in many of our opinions, Lexus is the better car. Are Lexus more expensive than comparable (well equipped) Mercedes, BMW's, and Audi's in Europe?
Also, how true is it that Europeans care little about reliability? That's a main driver of sales in the US but from our perspective, Europeans prefer cars that happen to be among the worst built. Considering they pay more for cars, I would think they'd want the most reliable car they could get.
Thanks for your insight spwolf.
04-18-11, 01:59 PM
#45
Clearly, there's a big boost for German car sales in Europe that manipulates the market in their favor. I guess that's something Lexus can't compete with.
However, you say they'll buy a good car at a good price. Well, in America, a Lexus is always lower priced than the German competitor and, in many of our opinions, Lexus is the better car. Are Lexus more expensive than comparable (well equipped) Mercedes, BMW's, and Audi's in Europe?
Also, how true is it that Europeans care little about reliability? That's a main driver of sales in the US but from our perspective, Europeans prefer cars that happen to be among the worst built. Considering they pay more for cars, I would think they'd want the most reliable car they could get.
Thanks for your insight spwolf.
However, you say they'll buy a good car at a good price. Well, in America, a Lexus is always lower priced than the German competitor and, in many of our opinions, Lexus is the better car. Are Lexus more expensive than comparable (well equipped) Mercedes, BMW's, and Audi's in Europe?
Also, how true is it that Europeans care little about reliability? That's a main driver of sales in the US but from our perspective, Europeans prefer cars that happen to be among the worst built. Considering they pay more for cars, I would think they'd want the most reliable car they could get.
Thanks for your insight spwolf.
European prices are between 50% and 100% higher than US ones as well.
Sure, some people care about reliability, a lot do not... lot buy them as company car and drive for 3 years only then sell. Thats why there are loads of used premium cars available for us eastern europeans - our streets are littered by 530d's :-).
But what is good sales for Lexus? I think 2007 levels of 70k per year and up to 100k per year would be very good for Lexus with current amount of dealers and current level of pricing/engines.
Reasons their sales went from 70k to 27k is mostly because of crisis (lexus doesnt discount much plus eastern europe where lexus was great got really bad drops) plus models that sell getting old (IS mainly).
With new IS, GS, CT, and 200h, 250h, 300h engines in some of these cars, they could do really well...