Vladi

We could argue all day long but it can all be said in three points why Lex is not a mainstream competitor.

1) Not enough cheap trims and small engines
2) No dealer network compared to competition
3) Residual value


As a matter of fact I am sure if they dropped 2.5 or 2.0 in GS they would have quadroupled their GS sales. Everybody I talked to they love GS more than any other product in Lexus line up, the only problem is that 3.0l engine. I am sure GS would outsell IS.

DustinV

You're trusting Wikipedia on this? That paragraph may have been written by a disgruntled Lexus fan for all we know.

There are import tariffs on foreign cars in Europe, but it hasn't stopped the success of Toyota in Europe, has it now?

Lexus is simply unappealing at the moment.

spwolf

to be fair, 10% duty means their cars are at least 12%-13% worse priced than competition.

While Toyota produces Aygo, Yaris, Auris, Auris Hybrid, Corolla, Verso and Avensis in Europe, and thus impact was avoided. It has certainly been an challenge for Toyota for their other cars though.

But Toyota isnt doing well in Europe either, a lot of Lexus problems are the same, with financial crisis starting the discount craze Toyota didnt want to follow.

DustinV

You're telling me anyone would blindly take a GS450h over a 520d because the GS450h is better value and faster? Uh, sure.

There are other considerations that seal the deal such as interior space or payload capacity for exmaple. The GS450h is CRAMPED compared to the current F10 5er and its payload capacity is embarrassing. Europeans like to travel with their luxury cars, especially a family car like the 520d in sedan or touring form. You get great gas mileage out of it, it's fast and you can fill it up with luggage.



The difference is that Europeans, from my observations, like to load up their cars with features they deem necessary and will make use of. In America we simply want every conceivable feature in the car whether we'll use it or not.



Many Europeans prefer cloth to leather or fake leather. I'm not European, but I dislike leather with a passion. My BMW has cloth seats and I don't care. I prefer cloth to leather. There are many Europeans who load up their premium cars with leather. Like I said, people have the option of customizing their cars here.

Have you been reading my posts? Some people think a "102-hp Audi" is all they need. I'm no performance nut, so a "102-hp Audi A4" is more appealing to me than an S4. Same car, just with a weaker engine and less features (which I can still add). Big deal.





The X1 comes in different trims and buyers still have the option of loading it up with whatever features they want. A cheap-trim X1 can be loaded up with leather seats and automatic transmission while an upscale-trim X1 can still be ordered with cloth seats. VARIETY IS GOOD.




What are you trying to imply? A modern diesel engine is unreliable?



Oh yes, I love the MANUAL A/C CONTROLS in my BMW 118d. They're simple to use and easy to understand and at the end of the day they cool or heat up my car.

Why should I opt for the more complex auto A/C controls? Because some people think that "that's luxury"? Spare me. Luxury is subjective at the end of the day. I don't think of my BMW 118d as a dedicated luxury car. It's a premium car but it's not luxury. And frankly, I doubt many people expect dedicated luxury from a BMW 1 series. The MB A/B classes and Audi A3 do luxury far better than the BMW 1 series.

speedflex

I've spend some time in Europe over the years and on my most recent trip last year I saw more Lexus that ever before but still, not many compared to the European contingent. Most notable were RXs. I saw precious few Lexus sedans or anything other than Rxs. When I looked around at what's available to the European customer I have to agree... Lexus just didn't stand out as anything special. It's an alternative but doesn't seem much more than that. Lexus is much more prominently a luxury brand here in the states and that has a lot to do with the strength of the brand. It could also be that Lexus vehicles are designed and styled more toward North American sensibilities than European. In Europe, apparently, the brand has significantly less importance and appeal than the established players.

DustinV

Toyota has a reputation for value and quality in Europe. That's what sells their products.

On the other hand, there are many other brands from Europe that offer even better value (Citroen for instance), quality and STYLE. I suspect that this has been hurting Toyotas recent sales in Europe given their rather mundane-looking cars.

Brands like Fiat or Renault for example have made tremendous strides in improving their cars and their sales and owner satisfaction studies reflect that.

DustinV

Mr. Green has some points which are true. But yes, I agree that he was hating on the brand.



You misunderstood me. I basically said I can see you're a passionate Lexus fan that is sometimes a little quick to jump the gun when you hear someone "bad-mouthing" your favorite brand.



Here's the difference. In America a luxury car is a car that is loaded with features. The badge comes in second. In Europe, the badge defines which car is a luxury or not.

Also, Honda, Kia and Hyundai sell the Legend (Acura RL), Opirus (Amanti) and Grandeur (Azera) in Europe respectively - mainstream cars with premium aspirations.

The result? SALES FAILURES. The sales of these cars are pathetic. For decades now, Honda has attempted to sell their Legend in Europe - without much success. Toyota was at least smart and pulled out their Camry of this market and replaced it with the smaller Avensis - which sells well. The Hyundai Sonata also sells poorly in Europe.

Mainstream cars with premium aspirations SELL POORLY in Europe. And that also includes the local German cars such as the Passat R36. Those seeking to upgrade from a mainstream to a premium car will skip over a Honda Legend with AWD, a 3.5 V6 and gobs of features but will rather go to a luxury brand to do business there.



Forgive me but where exactly do European magazines paint Americans as "stupid"?

Just as most American publications make fun of European cars with smaller engines, most European publications don't understand why the "average American needs a 300-hp 10 mpg SUV to drive to the Wal-Mart down the block and pick up a 6-pack of beer."



The Germans send over their larger engines because that's what the American market wants. Period. These are businesses, remember that.

Have you been keeping up with the global situation? Gas prices, emissions and an overall shift from performance to efficiency is now affecting the automotive world. This means that more efficient engines are soon coming over to North America. Mercedes will be introducing their 4-cylinder E250 CDI to the United States as well as their V6 S350 CDI Bluetec S class.



Keep in mind that people here also buy cars based on image. A BMW has a sporty image. A BMW with a manual is fun to drive. Cloth seats? Who cares.

I'll ask you again. What does Lexus stand for in Europe?



I'm sorry, but I have to say this. You're becoming way to emotional here without looking at the facts.

A simple diesel or gasoline-powered car is still cheaper than the equivalent hybrid. Hybrids are expensive in Europe and most people do not see the advantage of a hybrid. Diesel has long been the choice for people who drive long distances and need the benefits of fuel economy. In fact, these people will spend more time on the highways and roads where the electric motor of a hybrid will not be providing power.

European reviews and comparisons have shown that overall a diesel-powered luxury SUV (X5, ML etc.) will still be more fuel-efficient than an RX450h. An E350 CDI is more fuel-efficient overall than a GS450h. Hybrids are seen as technologically sophisticated here, but in terms of efficiency they have not impressed most Europeans. Even the Mercedes S400 Hybrid is not recommended over the more efficient and faster S350 CDI.

In North America and in Japan, with their known anti-diesel-stigma, a hybrid will naturally be more popular than a diesel. Even most American publications show their disdain for diesel cars and their praise for hybrids, which inadvertently does affect the public in regards to their car-purchasing-decisions.

Personally I have nothing against hybrids - it's just not for me. I want a simple gasoline or diesel CT200h.

DustinV

Actually this is incorrect.

Stripper models for those cars are more the exception rather than the norm. Most customers will equip their cars with the features they want while opting for an efficient model. So, it's not uncommon to see a BMW 520d or Mercedes E220 CDI that's nicely equipped.

The term "stripper European luxury car" might have been true in the early 1990s, but not anymore. These days these vehicles come standard with many features that the average European considers appropriate for their needs.

DustinV

Excellent points, Bitkahuna.


True.

The funny thing is that it seems that people here will still go for a BMW 1 series even if the price is similar to that of a lower-end BMW 3 series.

From reading other forums, it seems that the 1 series coupe in North America is often overlooked because "for the price you could purchase a BMW 3 series".

This is just another example of the many cultural differences between Americans and Europeans in regards to car-buying-habits.

DustinV

Um, some enthusiasts did.




Clearly you're not one.

LexFather

Yeah and 80% of 1 series owners think their cars are FWD.

Small luxury is a tough sell in America, always has. Its quite amazing how well the CT has sold already, more than the rest of the competition combined. To BMWs credit they brought us another coupe/convertible to sell at around 1,000 or so a month.

But lets not act like we get all the 1 series cars. BMW sends us the big engine 1 series. We don't get the 3 or 5 hatches, the diesels are small petrol hatches as they try to protect their image here. BMW knows those cars would be laughed at here which goes to the cultural differences we are all speaking about.

LexFather

Its not incorrect, most are base model cars and not sport package cars here or in Europe. They make up the vast minority of sales but they help with image.

DustinV

Those people claiming that "Europeans don't care about reliability" have no idea what they're talking about.

Reliability is important here and for most Europeans their European cars are reliable enough. If they weren't these people would switch brands. It's that simple. I think the biggest difference between Americans and Europeans is how we react to the problem. A broken cup holder isn't a big deal here. When their radio doesn't work, the average European doesn't write a letter to Consumer Reports to complain about it - he has the problem fixed and gets on with life. I think that Americans, and keep in mind that I am American, overreact sometimes to what is actually a small problem. True, these problems shouldn't happen, but they do. Cars are complex machines and things can go wrong.

I care about reliability. It's not the thing I care about most, but I do care about it. I've had no issues whatsoever on my last two Benzes and my current BMW or VW. My Volkswagen, just like my BMW, is a used car and it now has over 120,000 km on its back - no problems so far.

DustinV

I wonder how many Lexus CT200h or ES owners actually know that their car is FWD. Most people buying cars aren't enthusiasts. They don't know or don't care about such matters as to which wheels are being driven.

Small luxury is difficult to sell in North America, that's true, but times are changing and the success of the CT200h in America is showing that Americans are waking up and realizing that "big is not always better".

I think the 1 series 5-door wouldn't be a smart move for BMW for North America because of BMWs image in that market. They stand for sporty luxury/business/sports sedans and only the 1er coupe /convertible fits that image in North America.

I love my 118d and how it performs. I have all the speed I'll ever need. Hell, the top speed and high-speed handling abilities of my 118d will most likely put to shame a more powerful Camry V6 for instance. Who's laughing now?

Americans laugh at the smaller engines and cars that the Europeans drive and Europeans laugh at the overpowered and oversized cars that we drive. Culture clash. Period.

DustinV

Nope, you're wrong.

The "stripper" models of these cars are mainly sold to taxi and police fleets and these don't even account for 1/3 of total sales. And - these cars will be equipped with vinyl, automatic transmissions, navigation etc. But that's not the point. These are cars being used for a specific purpose that don't require certain features.

The vast majority of private-bought premium cars are nicely equipped from the factory and even better equipped once they're customized by the client. In fact it's difficult to sell a premium car in Europe today that has no features and this is precisely the reason why many European premium cars now offer more and many customers equip it with features that they want and will later stabilize the value of the car when they try to sell it.