we need more opinions always :-).

I just think it is impossible to beat everyone at everything.

But Lexus is working on their issues... TMC is slow, but they keep coming. People bashed them for Navs for long time and now they will be second with truly connected system in Entune. Lots of other stuff dealers said is already known to be coming like baby RX, more variance in models and interiors (CT), more expensive models (IS-F, LS-Sport), etc, etc.

Glance at that GS concept interior also looked interesting.

I think GS has TOP interior.... but maybe people are looking for over-the-top interiors... It seems next gen will get it too.

TMC is slow but it is like runaway train, unstoppable.

p.s. that will also not save it from due and undue criticism :-)

 

On what grounds does Lexus exactly beat others at? Im as much a lexus enthusiast as anyone else here, but this thread is meant to be critical at lexus, and if we look deeply, there are more than a few flaws.

The core reasons for buying a Lexus in 1990 no longer truly apply as much as they did back then.

quality -- recent quality issues, competition is vastly improving
value -- not so much anymore
technology -- as seen in the OP, not really anymore

 

Competition might be improving, but Lexus is still number 1 at quality. Nobody here is going to recommended buying BMW, MB or Audi. We see it every day, even with BMW lovers, they will tell you to lease the car.

It is also great value option for option.

Technology? Unless you mix and match various manufacturers, show me better value and more technology than in RX450h?

But what you are really saying is that you like Hyundai value, MB luxury and BMW engines... so what? If you are going to compare it to Hyundai as value, then there is no great technology there nor luxury... if you are going to compare it to MB, MB really has more tech than Lexus? Uhmuh? BMW? Great cars, bad fuel pumps, right?

 

You cant diss Lexus on how it lost the value proposition, when comparable 335i is 10k more expensive than IS350.

 

^^ according the the dealer notes though, the RX and ES are value oriented cars...i took some offense to that too. anywhoo

$1800 for LED headlights doesnt seem too much of a good deal, especially since the RX isnt even available with LED drls

$1500 for pre collision and radar CC is priced okay...but its not even the better PCS with auto braking

but ill give it to you that I cant show you a car better valued than the RX450h, which is why I own one.

and I truly believe MB has better tech than lexus. Hybrids asside (even though MB has explored the area), you can get distronic plus with auto braking to a complete stop, night view assist, split view navigation, active lane departure, active blind spot assist, like 18 way adjustable front seats with massaging function and active curve hugging bolsters, the list really goes on.

 

True once they are well thought out and legitimate concerns. We have discussed many. A few below

-No coupes besides a 375k LFA
-need of more customization
-value erosion
-some people do want a 7 seat car based SUV
-some questionable styling on some vehicles
-why no ES hybrid yet
-more expansion of "F" lineup outside of IS F/LFA
-ride becoming harsher due to going sporty
-IS rear seat room
-more options like HUD in more vehicles
-more customization options (though Lexus is TONS better than in the 90s)
-recall headaches in some cases
etc etc

To Gengar's point, some of the concerns are "wishing on a star" and some have no concept of a running a business. Many IMO are good points good and bad

We are also dwelling on the negative comments, quite a few in there were positive feedback.

 

ok so I am speccing ML450h and RC450h...

- let me point from the start that RX gets 30% better mpg.... i think thats rather astonishing difference in technology.
- I see that base ML gets fake leather, awesome.
- Let me also point out that RX has wider choice of colors, including interior.
- ML makes you pay for smart entry at 55k starting price?
- No ventilated seats in ML?
- No HUD in ML?
- No Lexus Enform type service?
- No XM Real time traffic?
+ Blind spot assist.

Where is this technology? In concept vehicles?

End result... RX450h 56k, ML450h 67k.

Lexus is considerably more advanced with 30% more mpg, definitely a lot more technology where as ML is missing even the most basic things like smart entry in their base option package, and their navigation does not have advanced features like xm traffic (and we are also nagging at Lexus all the time). Lexus Enform concierge service?
Ventilated seats? It does have blind spot assist in the mirrors.

So I honestly have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to real cars being sold.

Comparing ML to RX, it is obvious that RX is at another technological level when it comes to powertrain as well as actual luxury features, and all of that at 10k lesser price, showing itself as true value.

 

I also really wonder what people are talking about. They are making it seem like Lexus is selling Acuras or Kias or something. Yes the Germans lead in some areas, BMW comes to mind with i-Drive for example that everyone followed. I agree Mercedes makes some 500hp plus engines. Audi makes a nice AWD system. They have some nice options with some nice tech, no doubt. Maybe people are confusing a larger car lineup with technology as well?

I think the Mercedes E-tron is TECHNOLOGY, that is moving forward. If anyone is great with technology from Europe its Porsche.

 

Oh IC, lets compare a 6 year old ML with the all new RX

Also, the RX450h fully loaded is more like 63K...

 

Since you mention recalls, here is an article you may enjoy reading:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...ecalls/238076/

As to innovation, I can see both sides of the argument you are having with TRDFantasy. I think you are both right depending on what you define innovation to mean.

Overall, I see the issue this way. Toyota & Lexus, perhaps up until 7 or 8 years ago (as per the article) were innovating in that they took what customers wanted, and did it better than anyone else through a higher quality of and obsession with engineering. Thus you had the superior reliability of Toyota and Lexus, eg the feeling of switches that are still unmatched, the quality of the leather, the overall quietness of the cars; - all those things about Lexus we all like.

Over the last several years, they took their eye off both quality and innovation. As the article says, their competitors have caught up in quality terms, and, with Toyota / Lexus both having previously focused on quality and engineering, it is not in their DNA to innovate without applying their obsession with quality and engineering on those innovations. This will inevitably slow innovation.

It's a classic case of resting on your success, and also not actually understanding how the market was evolving ie while they needed to continually innovate the customer experience they concentrated on what was comfortable - continuous innovation in manufacturing techniques to reduce cost.

That it happened with Toyota is perhaps understandable. For it to happen in the luxury segment with Lexus is surprising. It is a testament to how far they were ahead that they were able to do so well for so long without much innovation. It is also a consequence of their accrued loyalty, reputation and image as well as marketing efforts playing on that.

The issue they have going forward, as Jalponik noted, is that Hyundai and Ford have caught up in quality so the cheaper end of the market is a precarious place to compete in both for Toyota and Lexus. This was exactly some of the points I was making last year with respect to Lexus: worldwide Lexus interiors are very close in appearance to that of Japanese & European Toyotas which in turn were competing with European GM & Ford, VW, Honda. If reliability vs the competition is equal and interiors look the same, but overall non Lexus cars look better, drive better and have more tech, then those who are not as enamored and appreciative of the Lexus engineering, have no reason to buy Lexus. In the Toyota realm, look at the Sonata compared to the Camry.

 

wait, but lets rag on Lexus for not updating technology in their 7 year old GS?

I think it is the same :-).

Options i selected on RX were that much, it seems they limited some options post-earthquake? otherwise i would have mentioned LED headlights too :-)

 

well what is happening is that everyone mixes best things from 5 manufacturers and then compares it to older Lexus models :-).

Fact is Lexus isnt really that much behind even in the worst scenario. MB doesnt seem to have Lexus Enform concierge service nor their NAVs have live traffic updates? I would think both of those are luxury and valuable in real life. But everyone craps on Lexus NAV?

Lexus/TMC has had nighview tech in their Japanese cars since 2003, and full stop distance control as well. It is also worth mentioning that for E-class, thats a part of $8k package.

So really, MB doesnt do things different than Lexus, bundling expensive options together and actually in case of ML, having LESS interior options. They also dont keep adding latest tech to their older models, regardless of facelifts.

Plus ML450h is new model, started selling very recently and cant touch RX450h at all.

 

not sure about the ML class, but mercedes does have traffic on their nav systems. I know the lowly C class got it on the 2010 model

 

it is hard to find info on their site about things...

 

The biggest constraint in my opinion is Japan. TMC/Japan is the one that dictates what they will send to the US. The dealers, regions and HQ express what they want but at the end of the day, Japan has the final say. I hope this changes because the CT is a step in the right direction for fun-to-drive, and from what i'm hearing the GS is another extension of that. The problem is...and I hate to say it...it's too little too late. The competition has tons of momentum whereas Lexus is still getting with the program.