Lexus dealers feedback to TMC
05-05-11, 09:00 AM
#122
Their US born and Euro born models have not been that good vehicles, imho.
05-05-11, 09:02 AM
#123
Lexus Connoisseur
Yeah you need to be like this guy Mike...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ortqac0WlEk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0BbApPUyOA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ortqac0WlEk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0BbApPUyOA
05-06-11, 04:16 AM
#124
Since you mention recalls, here is an article you may enjoy reading:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...ecalls/238076/
As to innovation, I can see both sides of the argument you are having with TRDFantasy. I think you are both right depending on what you define innovation to mean.
Overall, I see the issue this way. Toyota & Lexus, perhaps up until 7 or 8 years ago (as per the article) were innovating in that they took what customers wanted, and did it better than anyone else through a higher quality of and obsession with engineering. Thus you had the superior reliability of Toyota and Lexus, eg the feeling of switches that are still unmatched, the quality of the leather, the overall quietness of the cars; - all those things about Lexus we all like.
Over the last several years, they took their eye off both quality and innovation. As the article says, their competitors have caught up in quality terms, and, with Toyota / Lexus both having previously focused on quality and engineering, it is not in their DNA to innovate without applying their obsession with quality and engineering on those innovations. This will inevitably slow innovation.
It's a classic case of resting on your success, and also not actually understanding how the market was evolving ie while they needed to continually innovate the customer experience they concentrated on what was comfortable - continuous innovation in manufacturing techniques to reduce cost.
That it happened with Toyota is perhaps understandable. For it to happen in the luxury segment with Lexus is surprising. It is a testament to how far they were ahead that they were able to do so well for so long without much innovation. It is also a consequence of their accrued loyalty, reputation and image as well as marketing efforts playing on that.
The issue they have going forward, as Jalponik noted, is that Hyundai and Ford have caught up in quality so the cheaper end of the market is a precarious place to compete in both for Toyota and Lexus. This was exactly some of the points I was making last year with respect to Lexus: worldwide Lexus interiors are very close in appearance to that of Japanese & European Toyotas which in turn were competing with European GM & Ford, VW, Honda. If reliability vs the competition is equal and interiors look the same, but overall non Lexus cars look better, drive better and have more tech, then those who are not as enamored and appreciative of the Lexus engineering, have no reason to buy Lexus. In the Toyota realm, look at the Sonata compared to the Camry.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...ecalls/238076/
As to innovation, I can see both sides of the argument you are having with TRDFantasy. I think you are both right depending on what you define innovation to mean.
Overall, I see the issue this way. Toyota & Lexus, perhaps up until 7 or 8 years ago (as per the article) were innovating in that they took what customers wanted, and did it better than anyone else through a higher quality of and obsession with engineering. Thus you had the superior reliability of Toyota and Lexus, eg the feeling of switches that are still unmatched, the quality of the leather, the overall quietness of the cars; - all those things about Lexus we all like.
Over the last several years, they took their eye off both quality and innovation. As the article says, their competitors have caught up in quality terms, and, with Toyota / Lexus both having previously focused on quality and engineering, it is not in their DNA to innovate without applying their obsession with quality and engineering on those innovations. This will inevitably slow innovation.
It's a classic case of resting on your success, and also not actually understanding how the market was evolving ie while they needed to continually innovate the customer experience they concentrated on what was comfortable - continuous innovation in manufacturing techniques to reduce cost.
That it happened with Toyota is perhaps understandable. For it to happen in the luxury segment with Lexus is surprising. It is a testament to how far they were ahead that they were able to do so well for so long without much innovation. It is also a consequence of their accrued loyalty, reputation and image as well as marketing efforts playing on that.
The issue they have going forward, as Jalponik noted, is that Hyundai and Ford have caught up in quality so the cheaper end of the market is a precarious place to compete in both for Toyota and Lexus. This was exactly some of the points I was making last year with respect to Lexus: worldwide Lexus interiors are very close in appearance to that of Japanese & European Toyotas which in turn were competing with European GM & Ford, VW, Honda. If reliability vs the competition is equal and interiors look the same, but overall non Lexus cars look better, drive better and have more tech, then those who are not as enamored and appreciative of the Lexus engineering, have no reason to buy Lexus. In the Toyota realm, look at the Sonata compared to the Camry.
05-06-11, 05:20 AM
#125
05-06-11, 12:46 PM
#126
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well the problem is the media needs to right a giant thank you note for Toyota/Lexus in regards to quality b/c Lexus elevated quality and reliability to levels unheard of and it ELEVATED THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY.
All consumers benefited by Lexus making such high quality cars. The BMW, Range Rover, VW, Nissan, Cadillac etc etc guys that hate Lexus really need to thank them b/c it has made those brands more reliable.
If anyone takes a few minutes to go over JD Power and other quality scores over the last 2 decades you will notice how Lexus leads most years and the gap continued to shrink. You will also notice problems have declined with most every brand. Every brand had to get their act together in regards to quality b/c of Lexus.
We now live in a world where Ford, Lincoln, BMW etc all sometimes win quality awards, something unheard of 20 years ago as they chased Lexus in this area. Now they build better cars.
Lexus won't get much credit for it but it is what it is. So today Lexus no longer seems to invincible or that much higher quality as everyone has improved.
I remember saying it years ago that it was just a matter of time b/c a quality disaster struck Lexus. You can't be #1 in quality in an industry producing more complicated cars overnight while trying to cut costs without one day hurting quality. It was just a matter of time b/c there was a "breaking point". Lexus was #1-#3 or so most years for 20 years. It was only a matter of odds that things were going to go south a year or two.
A Lexus today is vastly more complex than one 20 years ago. A Lexus today rides on rubber band tires with a stiffer suspension than the ones 20 years ago. A Lexus today has sometimes unrealistic expectations of being a perfectly reliable car based on its 20 year history whereas 20 years ago people were really trusting a new brand.
It seems Lexus is going to go back to quality in their vehicles but the yen today is not the yen in 1989 so the cost has to go up.
All consumers benefited by Lexus making such high quality cars. The BMW, Range Rover, VW, Nissan, Cadillac etc etc guys that hate Lexus really need to thank them b/c it has made those brands more reliable.
If anyone takes a few minutes to go over JD Power and other quality scores over the last 2 decades you will notice how Lexus leads most years and the gap continued to shrink. You will also notice problems have declined with most every brand. Every brand had to get their act together in regards to quality b/c of Lexus.
We now live in a world where Ford, Lincoln, BMW etc all sometimes win quality awards, something unheard of 20 years ago as they chased Lexus in this area. Now they build better cars.
Lexus won't get much credit for it but it is what it is. So today Lexus no longer seems to invincible or that much higher quality as everyone has improved.
I remember saying it years ago that it was just a matter of time b/c a quality disaster struck Lexus. You can't be #1 in quality in an industry producing more complicated cars overnight while trying to cut costs without one day hurting quality. It was just a matter of time b/c there was a "breaking point". Lexus was #1-#3 or so most years for 20 years. It was only a matter of odds that things were going to go south a year or two.
A Lexus today is vastly more complex than one 20 years ago. A Lexus today rides on rubber band tires with a stiffer suspension than the ones 20 years ago. A Lexus today has sometimes unrealistic expectations of being a perfectly reliable car based on its 20 year history whereas 20 years ago people were really trusting a new brand.
It seems Lexus is going to go back to quality in their vehicles but the yen today is not the yen in 1989 so the cost has to go up.
05-06-11, 02:50 PM
#127
honestly this quality improvement line a big bag of poo. Everyone here is leasing their BMW's, Audi's and MB's, but buying their Lexus.
Who here has cohones to buy used german vehicle without extended manufacturer warranty? On the other hand, how many would buy used lexus?
No disrespect to anyone, I have been personally looking to buy 2-3 year old BMW but here we cant buy extended warranty so after reading over the forums i felt like there is possibility i could get myself into trouble 3-4 years later.
I dont actually want another GS, I had it for 3 years, time to change... But I also dont want to get vehicle that i might need to spend excessive amounts of money to repair when it is 5-6 years old.
Who here has cohones to buy used german vehicle without extended manufacturer warranty? On the other hand, how many would buy used lexus?
No disrespect to anyone, I have been personally looking to buy 2-3 year old BMW but here we cant buy extended warranty so after reading over the forums i felt like there is possibility i could get myself into trouble 3-4 years later.
I dont actually want another GS, I had it for 3 years, time to change... But I also dont want to get vehicle that i might need to spend excessive amounts of money to repair when it is 5-6 years old.
05-09-11, 03:08 PM
#128
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Great points. I think what has happened with quality is that Lexus came into a market that had a certain level of maturity, took the existing technology and components and made them ultra reliable and more luxurious. So the engines were made quieter, the leather was made supple yet hard wearing, the wood was engineered to even higher standards, the switches were perfected. Innovation took the form of perfecting an existing target.
Since then, technology and consumer requests have moved faster than the speed that Lexus can perfect them. And Lexus will have a hard time responding to these changes quickly because they have an obsession with quality (eg the LFA took 10 years).
But for commercial reasons, they do need to respond more quickly, and when they did it was at the cost of quality, the quality standards they established for themselves and the market. Additionally, when going outside their traditional areas, they are even less likely to get things right. It takes more to build an engaging sports sedan than just having perfected separate components from a technical perspective - it's how those components complement each other.
Here's a great article I found that describes perfectly what the GS became as a result of these contradictions. I think it's the most balanced and accurate review of the GS that I've read.
http://www.cars.com/lexus/gs-460/200...s/?revid=55593
I think the challenge that Lexus faces is exactly those that many market leaders face when they target the competition and improve on what was there: what next?
It's the classic dilemma the Japanese have had. They are great at improving what was there, but they don't lead as well. A great example of this is the Sony Walkman. Sony miniaturized the cassette player and created a new market, but they didn't take this leadership role and create the next breakthrough - digital "walkmans" ie the ipod, which put Apple on the way to becoming the biggest software company and now second largest company in the world.
And now with Hyundai copying at a lower cost, it's an even greater challenge for Lexus.
Since then, technology and consumer requests have moved faster than the speed that Lexus can perfect them. And Lexus will have a hard time responding to these changes quickly because they have an obsession with quality (eg the LFA took 10 years).
But for commercial reasons, they do need to respond more quickly, and when they did it was at the cost of quality, the quality standards they established for themselves and the market. Additionally, when going outside their traditional areas, they are even less likely to get things right. It takes more to build an engaging sports sedan than just having perfected separate components from a technical perspective - it's how those components complement each other.
Here's a great article I found that describes perfectly what the GS became as a result of these contradictions. I think it's the most balanced and accurate review of the GS that I've read.
http://www.cars.com/lexus/gs-460/200...s/?revid=55593
I think the challenge that Lexus faces is exactly those that many market leaders face when they target the competition and improve on what was there: what next?
It's the classic dilemma the Japanese have had. They are great at improving what was there, but they don't lead as well. A great example of this is the Sony Walkman. Sony miniaturized the cassette player and created a new market, but they didn't take this leadership role and create the next breakthrough - digital "walkmans" ie the ipod, which put Apple on the way to becoming the biggest software company and now second largest company in the world.
And now with Hyundai copying at a lower cost, it's an even greater challenge for Lexus.
Last edited by rjacket; 05-09-11 at 03:20 PM.
05-09-11, 03:25 PM
#129
Great points. I think what has happened with quality is that Lexus came into a market that had a certain level of maturity, took the existing technology and components and made them ultra reliable and more luxurious. So the engines were made quieter, the leather was made supple yet hard wearing, the wood was engineered to even higher standards, the switches were perfected. Innovation took the form of perfecting an existing target.
Since then, technology and consumer requests have moved faster than the speed that Lexus can perfect them. And Lexus will have a hard time responding to these changes quickly because they have an obsession with quality (eg the LFA took 10 years).
But for commercial reasons, they do need to respond more quickly, and when they did it was at the cost of quality, the quality standards they established for themselves and the market. Additionally, when going outside their traditional areas, they are even less likely to get things right. It takes more to build an engaging sports sedan than just having perfected separate components from a technical perspective - it's how those components complement each other.
Here's a great article I found that describes perfectly what the GS became as a result of these contradictions. I think it's the most balanced and accurate review of the GS that I've read.
http://www.cars.com/lexus/gs-460/200...s/?revid=55593
I think the challenge that Lexus faces is exactly those that many market leaders face when they target the competition and improve on what was there: what next?
It's the classic dilemma the Japanese have had. They are great at improving what was there, but they don't lead as well. A great example of this is the Sony Walkman. Sony miniaturized the cassette player and created a new market, but they didn't take this leadership role and create the next breakthrough - digital "walkmans" ie the ipod, which put Apple on the way to becoming the biggest software company and now second largest company in the world.
And now with Hyundai copying at a lower cost, it's an even greater challenge for Lexus.
Since then, technology and consumer requests have moved faster than the speed that Lexus can perfect them. And Lexus will have a hard time responding to these changes quickly because they have an obsession with quality (eg the LFA took 10 years).
But for commercial reasons, they do need to respond more quickly, and when they did it was at the cost of quality, the quality standards they established for themselves and the market. Additionally, when going outside their traditional areas, they are even less likely to get things right. It takes more to build an engaging sports sedan than just having perfected separate components from a technical perspective - it's how those components complement each other.
Here's a great article I found that describes perfectly what the GS became as a result of these contradictions. I think it's the most balanced and accurate review of the GS that I've read.
http://www.cars.com/lexus/gs-460/200...s/?revid=55593
I think the challenge that Lexus faces is exactly those that many market leaders face when they target the competition and improve on what was there: what next?
It's the classic dilemma the Japanese have had. They are great at improving what was there, but they don't lead as well. A great example of this is the Sony Walkman. Sony miniaturized the cassette player and created a new market, but they didn't take this leadership role and create the next breakthrough - digital "walkmans" ie the ipod, which put Apple on the way to becoming the biggest software company and now second largest company in the world.
And now with Hyundai copying at a lower cost, it's an even greater challenge for Lexus.
I think Toyota's leadership through technology has been decisive this decade through their introduction of HSD, trully innovative sytem that all the germans are struggling to copy decade later.... and it is definetly the biggest thing in automotive landscape to happen possibly in past 100 years, proven by how many german manufacturers are PR's their hybrids their days.
05-09-11, 03:36 PM
#130
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Errmmm ......... YES!
And the point is that Sony (Japanese company) took an existing technology (cassette tape) and made it better (Walkman for portability) and became the market leader. But, fast forward, it did not innovate further and stretch it's lead, instead leaving Apple (a non Japanese company) to produce what the customer really wanted in terms of portable music (the ipod).
Read Lexus as Sony and Apple as the German luxury manufacturers.
And the point is that Sony (Japanese company) took an existing technology (cassette tape) and made it better (Walkman for portability) and became the market leader. But, fast forward, it did not innovate further and stretch it's lead, instead leaving Apple (a non Japanese company) to produce what the customer really wanted in terms of portable music (the ipod).
Read Lexus as Sony and Apple as the German luxury manufacturers.
05-10-11, 08:02 AM
#131
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Really its quite simple
1. Offer base models, base suspensions for traditional Lexus buyers
2. Offer true sport packages, F-sport package, not items to be sold individually
3. Offer true F models and expand
4. Offer hybrids but tune them more for economy and not performance
While they have expanded their lineups, the Germans have done it more so. They need more offerings.
1. Offer base models, base suspensions for traditional Lexus buyers
2. Offer true sport packages, F-sport package, not items to be sold individually
3. Offer true F models and expand
4. Offer hybrids but tune them more for economy and not performance
While they have expanded their lineups, the Germans have done it more so. They need more offerings.
05-10-11, 09:47 AM
#132
Errmmm ......... YES!
And the point is that Sony (Japanese company) took an existing technology (cassette tape) and made it better (Walkman for portability) and became the market leader. But, fast forward, it did not innovate further and stretch it's lead, instead leaving Apple (a non Japanese company) to produce what the customer really wanted in terms of portable music (the ipod).
Read Lexus as Sony and Apple as the German luxury manufacturers.
And the point is that Sony (Japanese company) took an existing technology (cassette tape) and made it better (Walkman for portability) and became the market leader. But, fast forward, it did not innovate further and stretch it's lead, instead leaving Apple (a non Japanese company) to produce what the customer really wanted in terms of portable music (the ipod).
Read Lexus as Sony and Apple as the German luxury manufacturers.
What you are trying to say that 20 years later, Sony lost their ways, it has nothing to do with innovation as Japanese companies are very innovative.
05-10-11, 10:25 AM
#133
Really its quite simple
1. Offer base models, base suspensions for traditional Lexus buyers
2. Offer true sport packages, F-sport package, not items to be sold individually
3. Offer true F models and expand
4. Offer hybrids but tune them more for economy and not performance
While they have expanded their lineups, the Germans have done it more so. They need more offerings.
1. Offer base models, base suspensions for traditional Lexus buyers
2. Offer true sport packages, F-sport package, not items to be sold individually
3. Offer true F models and expand
4. Offer hybrids but tune them more for economy and not performance
While they have expanded their lineups, the Germans have done it more so. They need more offerings.
5) Offer 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder turbo diesels
6) For non Hybrid models, win the horsepower war
05-10-11, 11:02 AM
#134
Really its quite simple
1. Offer base models, base suspensions for traditional Lexus buyers
2. Offer true sport packages, F-sport package, not items to be sold individually
3. Offer true F models and expand
4. Offer hybrids but tune them more for economy and not performance
While they have expanded their lineups, the Germans have done it more so. They need more offerings.
1. Offer base models, base suspensions for traditional Lexus buyers
2. Offer true sport packages, F-sport package, not items to be sold individually
3. Offer true F models and expand
4. Offer hybrids but tune them more for economy and not performance
While they have expanded their lineups, the Germans have done it more so. They need more offerings.
06-06-11, 02:28 AM
#135
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The biggest constraint in my opinion is Japan. TMC/Japan is the one that dictates what they will send to the US. The dealers, regions and HQ express what they want but at the end of the day, Japan has the final say. I hope this changes because the CT is a step in the right direction for fun-to-drive, and from what i'm hearing the GS is another extension of that. The problem is...and I hate to say it...it's too little too late. The competition has tons of momentum whereas Lexus is still getting with the program.
.Using this logic, then the original debut of Lexus in the late 1980's was "too little too late". Before Lexus even debuted, the competition had tons of momentum. Toyota had to start from scratch with Lexus. Starting Lexus back then was much tougher IMO than becoming competitive now, especially since the LFA has already debuted and the hard work there has been done.
Despite all the momentum the competition had, Lexus still shook up the industry with the original LS. In many ways they redefined the luxury market. Similarly, the LFA is redefining the supercar/exotic market right now.
So I must respectfully disagree that it is "too little too late". Better late than never. If Toyota used this attitude, Lexus wouldn't even exist in the first place.