GM's Mark Reuss jabs the Nissan Leaf (updated, Nissan's commercial jabs back)
05-08-11, 09:21 AM
#16
Lexus Test Driver
If you own a Leaf, you'll probably need to own two cars unless you plan on renting a car every time you need to go more than 80 miles, which is very often for the average person. Perhaps this may not be too much of a problem since most couples already own two cars. Single people, however, generally own just one.
A Leaf + a gas car costs more than a Volt. Perhaps an irrelevant point in most cases, but relevant in some.
It is popular to compare the Volt to the Leaf, but they are completely different cars. Even more different than comparing a Prius to a Camry because you're still comparing internal combustion driven cars. The Leaf stands alone as the only 100% electric car. The Volt shouldn't be held to the electric range standards of a pure electric. The Volt has to carry around two powertrains in order to make the car make sense. So how could it fit the size battery that the Leaf carries?
I'll take half the electric range of the Volt with the freedom of endless driving range than a Leaf that relegates me to one area code.
A Leaf + a gas car costs more than a Volt. Perhaps an irrelevant point in most cases, but relevant in some.
It is popular to compare the Volt to the Leaf, but they are completely different cars. Even more different than comparing a Prius to a Camry because you're still comparing internal combustion driven cars. The Leaf stands alone as the only 100% electric car. The Volt shouldn't be held to the electric range standards of a pure electric. The Volt has to carry around two powertrains in order to make the car make sense. So how could it fit the size battery that the Leaf carries?
I'll take half the electric range of the Volt with the freedom of endless driving range than a Leaf that relegates me to one area code.
05-08-11, 12:27 PM
#17
Once the Volt's battery-pack is fully-charged, you don't need the gas engine for up to 40 miles....it can run that far, in ideal conditions, on the electrics alone. No, that's not as far as the Leaf can go, in good weather and ideal driving conditions, on a charge, but the Leaf has to be plugged in overnight on a 110V outlet....the Volt doesn't. Most people would probably prefer a plug-in hybrid that maybe used a small amount of gas, but didn't have to sit for 8-10 hours getting a charge, if they didn't have time for that. 400V outlets are under development for all-electric cars that can do a full-charge in less than hour, but they are not ready yet.
Because if you dont plug it, you got awful vehicle for 45k
If you have 45k to spend on vehicle, then either it is your 2nd vehicle in the house, or you will rent proper car for long trips, that wont relegate you to 74hp engine in 3800lbs car.
So there is no way Volt works well as one vehicle in the house. You might as well spend less money for double the EV range in leaf, and have another car for long trips - or heck, difference of 15k in price will give you a lot of rental days.
Now, if GM made proper decision and created essentially an Prius copy-cat, which would be most efficient thing, then it would be different. You would have proper engined, proper powered hybrid with EV range.
Not this idiocy which is poor PHEV and lesser EV.
And what will happen when Prius PHEV is introduced at $27-28k? With >50MPG and proper engine that doesnt relegate you to 2nd class citizen when it is out of electricity?
05-08-11, 01:23 PM
#18
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spwolf, the Volt is $41K unless you add unnecessary leather, ect...
With the $7500 tax credit (which I don't support), people will own a Volt for $33,500. Not $45,000.
With the $7500 tax credit (which I don't support), people will own a Volt for $33,500. Not $45,000.
05-08-11, 01:26 PM
#19
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And what will happen when Prius PHEV is introduced at $27-28k? With >50MPG and proper engine that doesnt relegate you to 2nd class citizen when it is out of electricity?
Of course, on the other hand, it is no secret that both Honda and Toyota lost money on the sale of the 1Gen Prius and Insight here in America 10 years ago, despite their higher-than-normal prices. It simply cost more to build them that they could realistically charge in the marketplace.
05-08-11, 02:03 PM
#20
I'll respect your opinion on that, but I think we just may disagree. I don't see how not plugging in a Volt makes it a bad design. The gas engine will charge up the battery, of course, and use more gas than if you left it plugged in all night, but you are still talking a lot better gas mileage than a conventional compact or sub-compact. Yes, the price is steep, but it includes a $7500 Federal tax credit. Still, that is why I often advise people who are in the market for hybrids to consider that the price-difference between a conventional car and a regular hybrid or plug-in-hybrid can buy a LOT of gasoline, even at $4 a gallon (or, as you point out....the cost of rental-cars)
If GM, even with all of the government and UAW money that was pumped into it during the last couple of years, has to price the Volt, from the factory (not including dealer mark-ups) at 41K, I don't see how Toyota, without a big influx of money coming in like GM got, can afford to produce and sell a similiar Prius Plug-in-Hybrid for a price in the upper-20s. They would just lose too much money.
Of course, on the other hand, it is no secret that both Honda and Toyota lost money on the sale of the 1Gen Prius and Insight here in America 10 years ago, despite their higher-than-normal prices. It simply cost more to build them that they could realistically charge in the marketplace.
If GM, even with all of the government and UAW money that was pumped into it during the last couple of years, has to price the Volt, from the factory (not including dealer mark-ups) at 41K, I don't see how Toyota, without a big influx of money coming in like GM got, can afford to produce and sell a similiar Prius Plug-in-Hybrid for a price in the upper-20s. They would just lose too much money.
Of course, on the other hand, it is no secret that both Honda and Toyota lost money on the sale of the 1Gen Prius and Insight here in America 10 years ago, despite their higher-than-normal prices. It simply cost more to build them that they could realistically charge in the marketplace.
It doesnt charge the battery like Prius does. Hence the awful 37 MPG and hence the 74hp engine working for you without battery help... it only changes when you press mountain button because it then precharges the battery to it can help you up the hill in the "limp" mode.
which is my problem with Volt - it is inefficiently done just because they wanted to claim it is different than Prius... and even then, at the end, they had to concede defeat, and add direct driving of the wheels by engine at the speeds over 70mph.
So i have no problems with concept of Phev, in fact I like it better than pure EV, but not when it is so bad in non-ev mode for so much money.
For me, objectively, I would get Leaf only if it is 2nd car in the house. And I would never get Volt, since it is not good enough for only car in the house, and Leaf is much better choice as 2nd car in the house.
Of course, GM CEO said they will ramp up production this year to 25k/year... huh? Their best month this year was less than 600 and they want to sell 25k this year? Just typical GM PR crap.
05-08-11, 02:51 PM
#21
Autocar have tested the Leaf and come away impressed:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/...K-spec/256697/
I've seen a few on the road now and it's an interesting proposition for a future purchase.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/...K-spec/256697/
I've seen a few on the road now and it's an interesting proposition for a future purchase.
05-08-11, 05:46 PM
#22
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Because of this, I'd revise that number for now to at least $38,500-$40,000.
Regardless of potential fuel savings, this is quite costly for the average American family to afford.
05-08-11, 07:23 PM
#23
I think I recall reading though that due to limited quantities of the Volt, dealers are charging *at least* $5,000 over the MSRP. And because of the limited supplies, this is non-negotiable. That's a big problem.
Because of this, I'd revise that number for now to at least $38,500-$40,000.
Regardless of potential fuel savings, this is quite costly for the average American family to afford.
Because of this, I'd revise that number for now to at least $38,500-$40,000.
Regardless of potential fuel savings, this is quite costly for the average American family to afford.
I thought the Volt was like a $20,000 car
.
05-08-11, 07:52 PM
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Wow, so you weren't aware of the Volt's price? That's the #1 most talked about topic in the auto industry during the last year and a half.
05-08-11, 07:55 PM
#26
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Actually people buy the Volt at 45k or so, you get the tax credit next year when you file taxes.
I have no issues with the LEAF, I like it, great for short trips. I live close to downtown and could drive it down there, park easily since its small, drive a little and go back home with no need for gas. INfiniti is making a version of it and it might be more to my tastes.
I have no issues with the LEAF, I like it, great for short trips. I live close to downtown and could drive it down there, park easily since its small, drive a little and go back home with no need for gas. INfiniti is making a version of it and it might be more to my tastes.
Last edited by LexFather; 05-09-11 at 09:19 AM.
05-08-11, 08:31 PM
#29
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by Motor Trend Magazine
You'd have to drive 200,000 miles to save the price premium over a similarly loaded Chevy Cruze LTZ, but the high-tech capacitive-touch buttons and dressier (if tight) interior add value, as does your ability to commute silently to work without range anxiety.
Maybe it's just the area I live in--but it's rare to see people in my area drive anything even past 100K miles.
Also, why would you have range anxiety in a normal car?
05-08-11, 08:38 PM
#30
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
volt = useless/overpriced (should be renamed the "shock" )
leaf = useless/range/screwed if you run out of juice not at right place (should be renamed the "flea" )
)leaf = useless/range/screwed if you run out of juice not at right place (should be renamed the "flea"
)