Civic Hybrid tests Honda's new strategy
07-13-11, 08:39 AM
#17
I'm going to agree with mmarshall on this one. I think the Prius sells more b/c it's image/publicity machine. I really doubt most Prius owner know anything about the 4 things you listed above but I bet they can tell you what movie star drives a Prius. IMO I think both cars are a waste. I want something that either uses no gas or I'll just purchase a cheap 4 cylinder car and call it a day.
it is also quite silly to say that people dont know when one car is more spacious than another or has twice the trunk space, or gets 20% better mpg, etc, etc.
07-13-11, 08:40 AM
#18
otherwise, hybrids lately get such good resale values that it pays for itself, lol.
07-13-11, 09:13 AM
#19
Lexus Fanatic
If hybrids, though, become too pricey in the used-car market, than a lot of potyential buyers might say the hell with it, just go ahead and buy a new one, even with (possible) supply-limitations and almost-certain dealer mark-ups. Why buy used for X number of $$$$$, if and when you can buy new for virtually the same money? I'm not sure of this (?) but I don't think that a used-hybrid purchase qualifies for tax-credits like a new one does either.
07-13-11, 09:34 AM
#20
If hybrids, though, become too pricey in the used-car market, than a lot of potyential buyers might say the hell with it, just go ahead and buy a new one, even with (possible) supply-limitations and almost-certain dealer mark-ups. Why buy used for X number of $$$$$, if and when you can buy new for virtually the same money? I'm not sure of this (?) but I don't think that a used-hybrid purchase qualifies for tax-credits like a new one does either.
But this whole idea of recovering your cost while taking ONLY cost of fuel into equation is ridicilous.... by that measurement, nobody would ever buy an V6 Camry, because it costs 15k more than 4cly. And then you spend more gas too.
While Prius isnt faster than 1.8l Corolla or 2.5l Camry, there is novelty feel-good factor in there, it is just not speed.
On the other hand, Camry Hybrid and GSh are also faster as well as more economical. But their main problem was poor trunk space which effectively makes them city cars and which apparently has been solved in 2012 Camry.
07-13-11, 09:36 AM
#21
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The new Civic hybrid will continue to be a sales failure. I don't get why Honda is having such a difficult time at least matching the Prius. If you can't match the Prius, don't bother building a half assed attempt [Insight]. That's why no other company has tried either - because they can't do it and do it for $23K like Toyota. Others are entering the market with a different approach (Volt, Leaf, ect.). Nobody's going to pay $41K for the Volt that offers little advantage to the $23K Prius.
I know how mmarshal feels about the Prius' build quality but IMO it is the most well built Prius to date and it is significantly more upscale than either the Civic or Insight which are very plasticy economy cars compared to the Prius.
I know how mmarshal feels about the Prius' build quality but IMO it is the most well built Prius to date and it is significantly more upscale than either the Civic or Insight which are very plasticy economy cars compared to the Prius.
Last edited by -J-P-L-; 07-13-11 at 09:40 AM.
07-13-11, 10:42 AM
#22
You need to have someone willing to pay for it over a new one first...that's going to be difficult. An item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Again...even a 5-6k grand markup for a few dollars worth of savings per month over an already high MPG gas civic is a poor value proposition.
If I recall, one of the heads of Toyota was quoted as saying how their Hybrid's don't make sense in terms economic savings. If people are looking at environmental benefits, hybrids are horrible to the environment in terms of mining for their batteries. Many of the areas they get the batteries from are virtually uninhabitable due to environmental impact and are highly susceptible to acid rain. The very people that should be boycotting hybrids because of this, are the people that pay a premium for them.
Hybrids aren't the answer. So far diesel and maybe hydrogen very long term are the only realistic replacements for petrol engines.
If I recall, one of the heads of Toyota was quoted as saying how their Hybrid's don't make sense in terms economic savings. If people are looking at environmental benefits, hybrids are horrible to the environment in terms of mining for their batteries. Many of the areas they get the batteries from are virtually uninhabitable due to environmental impact and are highly susceptible to acid rain. The very people that should be boycotting hybrids because of this, are the people that pay a premium for them.
Hybrids aren't the answer. So far diesel and maybe hydrogen very long term are the only realistic replacements for petrol engines.
Toyota sold over 3 million hybrids.
Batteries are 100% recyclable.
Same materials that go into hybrid batteries go to your laptop, remote, children toys, phones, tablets, etc. There is no difference there except that those sell a ton more than hybrid vehicle and in most world countries are not going to be recycled at all.
07-13-11, 10:46 AM
#23
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Its stunning to think Honda continues to fail with their hybrids or assist cars. Insight, Civic, CR-Z...You would think they would have then sown up by now.
I do have to say if they get the hydrogen car right though, mahn they are going to be way ahead of most everyone.
I do have to say if they get the hydrogen car right though, mahn they are going to be way ahead of most everyone.
07-13-11, 10:59 AM
#24
They have gotten their hydrogen car right. The only thing stopping them is the limited amount of fueling station. If Prius owners are overjoyed by the fact that they're leaving a small carbon footprint, then I can't imagine how wet they'll get when they drive around in a Honda FCX.
07-13-11, 11:08 AM
#25
Racer
IMO just hype. It's a image car, maybe one day I'll purchase one. Nothing against the Prius or Insight I just don't think either car is a smart car to purchase to save money on gas.
Last edited by rogers2; 07-13-11 at 11:16 AM.
07-13-11, 12:14 PM
#28
Lexus Champion
You need to have someone willing to pay for it over a new one first...that's going to be difficult. An item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Again...even a 5-6k grand markup for a few dollars worth of savings per month over an already high MPG gas civic is a poor value proposition.
If I recall, one of the heads of Toyota was quoted as saying how their Hybrid's don't make sense in terms economic savings. If people are looking at environmental benefits, hybrids are horrible to the environment in terms of mining for their batteries. Many of the areas they get the batteries from are virtually uninhabitable due to environmental impact and are highly susceptible to acid rain. The very people that should be boycotting hybrids because of this, are the people that pay a premium for them.
Hybrids aren't the answer. So far diesel and maybe hydrogen very long term are the only realistic replacements for petrol engines.
If I recall, one of the heads of Toyota was quoted as saying how their Hybrid's don't make sense in terms economic savings. If people are looking at environmental benefits, hybrids are horrible to the environment in terms of mining for their batteries. Many of the areas they get the batteries from are virtually uninhabitable due to environmental impact and are highly susceptible to acid rain. The very people that should be boycotting hybrids because of this, are the people that pay a premium for them.
Hybrids aren't the answer. So far diesel and maybe hydrogen very long term are the only realistic replacements for petrol engines.
Allow me to address JUST the nickel-metal hydride battery issue.
YES, nickel is mined in Sudbury, Canada. YES, 30/40 years ago it was a wasteland, but it has since been cleaned up and Sudbury has won awards for what they have done to bring back the local area. The pictures published to support the Hummer-is-more-environmentally-friendly-than-a-Prius argument are ancient photos; you would not recognize Sudbury now if all you had seen were those photos.
NO, nickel is not JUST used for the hybrid battery in the Prius. It was used for ALL hybrid batteries (Toyota/Lexus, Ford, Honda, etc.) until recently. It was used for years in cellphone and other rechargeable batteries for years. Remember the NiCd batteries?
Nickel is also used in chrome plating (the real stuff, not the plastic stuff). Do you have any chrome on your car? Remember those big chrome bumpers on those huge American cars of yesteryear? Nickel was in there.
Nickel is also used in stainless steel. You rely on stainless steel every day. Stainless steel exhaust systems don't rust out in 2 or 3 years. Stainless steel is in the pots and pans you use every day. Stainless steel is in the knives, forks and spoons you use every day.
Diesels are not the answer. The exhaust is filthy. The urea scrubbers only take care of the NOX emissions. And what if you forget to refill the urea tank? There is still the particulate emissions that can be really dangerous to those with breathing problems.
If you were really concerned about the environment, you would not be driving; you would not be riding in diesel buses; you would not even be riding metal bicycles; you would be walking.
07-13-11, 02:32 PM
#29
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Those wanting purely economic transportation, buy a Yaris in the Toyota lineup. Many, however, do not want an economy car, but still want stellar fuel economy. That is where the Prius comes in. Is this so hard to understand?
If you take away the hybrid components of a Prius, you're still left with a $20K class car, and one that would probably only be good for 35 mpg. A few grand more gets you 50. Point is, is that the Prius isn't a $23K economy car, but rather a Camry class alternative, and therefore very much worth its price. A Prius IV or V, not so much.
07-14-11, 09:32 AM
#30
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Honda is not necessarily ahead of Mercedes on hydrogen/fuel-cell cars. M-B has been working on fuel-cell A and B-Class models for several years......we just haven't seen them here in the U.S. yet. M-B management continues to stubbornly resist bringing ANY of the A or B-Class models to the U.S.....including the fuel-cells.