Toyota Dealer Meeting Las Vegas (2012 Camry is Coming!)
07-02-11, 12:49 AM
#61
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Toyota did a driving comparison event between 7th gen Camry, Sonata, Accord and Fusion at the dealer meeting and from what I understand, it would have been a more fair comparison if they had included the TL, LaCrosse, ES350 and some entry level luxury models. Interior and driving dynamics of the Camry seem to be in another league among its competitors.
You might think, "Well, of course Toyota dealers are going to like the Camry," but you'd be surprised with how critical these people can be. The Camry, no surprise, is the car that Toyota dealers depend on and they know that it has to be spot on and nothing less. These are probably the biggest critics of the car, and they absolutely loved it.
People will look at the 7th gen Camry and probably say that they didn't do enough to differentiate the design but most of the R&D money has been spent on quality - inside the cabin, under the hood, and at the wheels. Completely new interior and I'm hearing that the XLE has a leather stitched dash. 3GR has been updated a bit and now produces a bit more power and 2-3 better MPG, same for the 4cyl. Suspensions have been completely revamped for more control and feedback (even on non SE models) and the cars have been vibration tested for soundness and quality up to 125MPH for both 4cyl and V6. I've also heard that the body panel gaps are tighter than any Lexus sedan in production right now.
You might think, "Well, of course Toyota dealers are going to like the Camry," but you'd be surprised with how critical these people can be. The Camry, no surprise, is the car that Toyota dealers depend on and they know that it has to be spot on and nothing less. These are probably the biggest critics of the car, and they absolutely loved it.
People will look at the 7th gen Camry and probably say that they didn't do enough to differentiate the design but most of the R&D money has been spent on quality - inside the cabin, under the hood, and at the wheels. Completely new interior and I'm hearing that the XLE has a leather stitched dash. 3GR has been updated a bit and now produces a bit more power and 2-3 better MPG, same for the 4cyl. Suspensions have been completely revamped for more control and feedback (even on non SE models) and the cars have been vibration tested for soundness and quality up to 125MPH for both 4cyl and V6. I've also heard that the body panel gaps are tighter than any Lexus sedan in production right now.
Excellent to hear though. Makes me anxious to see just how much of a leap the next-gen Lexus models will be, particularly the ES and IS. We already know the GS will be a big leap forward.
As far as I know, yes.
Worse quality? Then yes, you are correct. The current gen Camry is notoriously one of the worst built in the segment and in Toyota's history. I know this because I've owned three. The dash is almost always misaligned and the panel gaps are ridiculous, but overall, it does what it is supposed to. Quiet, comfortable car, nothing else.
So you've had panel gap issues with your Camrys, fair enough. Strange that the later model years for you have had worse problems. Yet all the facts and data point to the later models 2009-2010+ versus 2007 having better panel gaps. The 2006-2007 Camry models were the worst quality-wise of this generation. This is not just anecdotal or personal observation. This is hard data from tons of Camry owners and also based on Toyota's complaints and warranty data.
One of the worst built in the segment? Far from it. At worst, the current 6th-gen Camry's interior is average.
07-02-11, 01:05 PM
#62
This post is not for TRD Fantasy so please don't comment.
My hypothesis is that over time Hyundai will overtake Toyota in the mass market segment.
I think there is an inherent challenge for companies that own both a mass market and a luxury division - the challenge is separation.
If you sit inside a KIA Optima EX, you will notice leather stitched dash, more premium and realistic-looking wood accents, perforated leather ventilated seats, etc. The interior surpasses most entry-level luxury cars including the IS250.
You see this with Hyundai and KIA. Some of the newer Fords and Chryslers also have very luxurious options when you select higher trim levels. VW and Chevy do not.
Hyundai and Chrysler don't have a luxury brand to create separation from, so they can afford to go as far as the economics allow to create an exceptional degree of luxury features in a mass market car. Chrysler is even deploying 8-speed transmissions which I could not believe when I heard it.
So I think the challenge for Toyota is going to be prevent themselves from holding back to create separation to Lexus.
They need to run each as if they are completely independent, and try to beat the best of the competition.
So the 2012 Camry - design as far as I can tell looks nice. To be competitive they will need an interior quality better than the current IS. The XLE trim will need leather trimmed instrument cluster, much more premium wood finishes, soft touch materials, etc. The HS250h interior is what I think should be the interior of a Toyota vehicle, Lexus interiors should be more like what we see in the LF-GH concept. Also I think they should skip the 6 speed and go straight to a 7 or 8 speed transmission. Because these types of decisions would be what you do if you want to have the best product in the segment.
I hope they are willing to be the best - regardless of what it means for Lexus. If they worry too much about separation from current lexus models, they will gradually lose share to those who are prepared to over-deliver.
My hypothesis is that over time Hyundai will overtake Toyota in the mass market segment.
I think there is an inherent challenge for companies that own both a mass market and a luxury division - the challenge is separation.
If you sit inside a KIA Optima EX, you will notice leather stitched dash, more premium and realistic-looking wood accents, perforated leather ventilated seats, etc. The interior surpasses most entry-level luxury cars including the IS250.
You see this with Hyundai and KIA. Some of the newer Fords and Chryslers also have very luxurious options when you select higher trim levels. VW and Chevy do not.
Hyundai and Chrysler don't have a luxury brand to create separation from, so they can afford to go as far as the economics allow to create an exceptional degree of luxury features in a mass market car. Chrysler is even deploying 8-speed transmissions which I could not believe when I heard it.
So I think the challenge for Toyota is going to be prevent themselves from holding back to create separation to Lexus.
They need to run each as if they are completely independent, and try to beat the best of the competition.
So the 2012 Camry - design as far as I can tell looks nice. To be competitive they will need an interior quality better than the current IS. The XLE trim will need leather trimmed instrument cluster, much more premium wood finishes, soft touch materials, etc. The HS250h interior is what I think should be the interior of a Toyota vehicle, Lexus interiors should be more like what we see in the LF-GH concept. Also I think they should skip the 6 speed and go straight to a 7 or 8 speed transmission. Because these types of decisions would be what you do if you want to have the best product in the segment.
I hope they are willing to be the best - regardless of what it means for Lexus. If they worry too much about separation from current lexus models, they will gradually lose share to those who are prepared to over-deliver.
Last edited by *Batman*; 07-02-11 at 01:08 PM.
07-02-11, 01:36 PM
#63
This post is not for TRD Fantasy so please don't comment.
My hypothesis is that over time Hyundai will overtake Toyota in the mass market segment.
I think there is an inherent challenge for companies that own both a mass market and a luxury division - the challenge is separation.
If you sit inside a KIA Optima EX, you will notice leather stitched dash, more premium and realistic-looking wood accents, perforated leather ventilated seats, etc. The interior surpasses most entry-level luxury cars including the IS250.
You see this with Hyundai and KIA. Some of the newer Fords and Chryslers also have very luxurious options when you select higher trim levels. VW and Chevy do not.
Hyundai and Chrysler don't have a luxury brand to create separation from, so they can afford to go as far as the economics allow to create an exceptional degree of luxury features in a mass market car. Chrysler is even deploying 8-speed transmissions which I could not believe when I heard it.
So I think the challenge for Toyota is going to be prevent themselves from holding back to create separation to Lexus.
They need to run each as if they are completely independent, and try to beat the best of the competition.
So the 2012 Camry - design as far as I can tell looks nice. To be competitive they will need an interior quality better than the current IS. The XLE trim will need leather trimmed instrument cluster, much more premium wood finishes, soft touch materials, etc. The HS250h interior is what I think should be the interior of a Toyota vehicle, Lexus interiors should be more like what we see in the LF-GH concept. Also I think they should skip the 6 speed and go straight to a 7 or 8 speed transmission. Because these types of decisions would be what you do if you want to have the best product in the segment.
I hope they are willing to be the best - regardless of what it means for Lexus. If they worry too much about separation from current lexus models, they will gradually lose share to those who are prepared to over-deliver.
My hypothesis is that over time Hyundai will overtake Toyota in the mass market segment.
I think there is an inherent challenge for companies that own both a mass market and a luxury division - the challenge is separation.
If you sit inside a KIA Optima EX, you will notice leather stitched dash, more premium and realistic-looking wood accents, perforated leather ventilated seats, etc. The interior surpasses most entry-level luxury cars including the IS250.
You see this with Hyundai and KIA. Some of the newer Fords and Chryslers also have very luxurious options when you select higher trim levels. VW and Chevy do not.
Hyundai and Chrysler don't have a luxury brand to create separation from, so they can afford to go as far as the economics allow to create an exceptional degree of luxury features in a mass market car. Chrysler is even deploying 8-speed transmissions which I could not believe when I heard it.
So I think the challenge for Toyota is going to be prevent themselves from holding back to create separation to Lexus.
They need to run each as if they are completely independent, and try to beat the best of the competition.
So the 2012 Camry - design as far as I can tell looks nice. To be competitive they will need an interior quality better than the current IS. The XLE trim will need leather trimmed instrument cluster, much more premium wood finishes, soft touch materials, etc. The HS250h interior is what I think should be the interior of a Toyota vehicle, Lexus interiors should be more like what we see in the LF-GH concept. Also I think they should skip the 6 speed and go straight to a 7 or 8 speed transmission. Because these types of decisions would be what you do if you want to have the best product in the segment.
I hope they are willing to be the best - regardless of what it means for Lexus. If they worry too much about separation from current lexus models, they will gradually lose share to those who are prepared to over-deliver.
But I dont think Toyota worries about that at all - Camry will have leather on the dashboard and two tone leather in the vehicle, 6.1" entertainment screen probably standard, etc, none of which Optima has. Probably a lot of other "luxurious" things.
07-02-11, 01:48 PM
#64
in fact, most people here think toyota is overall over-delivering compared to Lexus as it is, lots of people here recently were worried about things like Toyota getting standard 6.1" multimedia interface in many upcoming models, vs a lot of Lexus models still have 1 line LCD's in non nav versions.
I believe that >90% of not ALL next gen Toyotas (Prius V, Camry) will have 6.1" multimedia system standard, and probably most of even of under 20k models like next gen Tacoma coming soon.
KIA has UVO coming for instance but it has substantially smaller screen at 4.3".
I believe that >90% of not ALL next gen Toyotas (Prius V, Camry) will have 6.1" multimedia system standard, and probably most of even of under 20k models like next gen Tacoma coming soon.
KIA has UVO coming for instance but it has substantially smaller screen at 4.3".
07-02-11, 01:58 PM
#65
i think you need to double take both interiors if you need optima interior with a lot of black plastic overtakes IS series (all IS's have same plastics doesnt matter if it is IS250 or IS-F). In fact, cheap interior (by euro standards) of Optima is only thing worrying me with that car, just like Sportage which has great exterior, good engines and a lot of examples of early 2000's black matte plastics.
But I dont think Toyota worries about that at all - Camry will have leather on the dashboard and two tone leather in the vehicle, 6.1" entertainment screen probably standard, etc, none of which Optima has. Probably a lot of other "luxurious" things.
But I dont think Toyota worries about that at all - Camry will have leather on the dashboard and two tone leather in the vehicle, 6.1" entertainment screen probably standard, etc, none of which Optima has. Probably a lot of other "luxurious" things.
07-02-11, 02:00 PM
#66
in fact, most people here think toyota is overall over-delivering compared to Lexus as it is, lots of people here recently were worried about things like Toyota getting standard 6.1" multimedia interface in many upcoming models, vs a lot of Lexus models still have 1 line LCD's in non nav versions.
I believe that >90% of not ALL next gen Toyotas (Prius V, Camry) will have 6.1" multimedia system standard, and probably most of even of under 20k models like next gen Tacoma coming soon.
KIA has UVO coming for instance but it has substantially smaller screen at 4.3".
I believe that >90% of not ALL next gen Toyotas (Prius V, Camry) will have 6.1" multimedia system standard, and probably most of even of under 20k models like next gen Tacoma coming soon.
KIA has UVO coming for instance but it has substantially smaller screen at 4.3".
So the new Camry will have Entune. Terrific.
Btw any word on Lexus getting Entune yet? I assume they will just reskin and rename since it is already a world class product.
07-02-11, 02:08 PM
#67
High quality interior, leather dash (i think it is top of instruments like CTh, while next gen GS has complete dash in leather), two tone leather, better handling (apparently more like Acura's, less like Hyundai's), more mpg, Entune/Multimedia system.
basically whatever you want it is there... keep in mind that back in 2006, Camry was very advanced when it came out, for vanilla ice cream.
07-02-11, 02:17 PM
#68
Quite possibly Camry will have standard 6.1" screen or maybe from LE. We know Prius V will have it standatd in NA... so probably next gen Avalon standard, Rav4 Standard, etc.
07-02-11, 02:23 PM
#69
i dont think TMS is presenting their display audio enough... while TMME (Europe) is doing it right. Entune is great but Entune is extra $ option in almost all cars. Display audio (US name, Touch Touch is European name) is to me a lot more important than having some apps, and it will replace 1 line LCD's for "free".
Euro Verso-S with Toyota Touch (aka Display Audio in NA)
Prius V with Entune (same screen as Display Audi which will be standard).
Euro Verso-S with Toyota Touch (aka Display Audio in NA)
Prius V with Entune (same screen as Display Audi which will be standard).
07-02-11, 03:08 PM
#71
it is usual Toyota - slow to enter, but once they get into it, they do it the best :-).
There is no doubt that Sync was first, but now Sync is the reason that Ford's ratings have dropped due to many issues and also sync doesnt mean some great multimedia - it comes with 1 liner lcd on some models.
While Toyota Touch will be standard on most Toyota's (as they keep updating lineup), with 6.1" display, Bluetooth, USB, Ipod, Trip Computer, Remote Camera coming standard on most models.
It also probably means that GS will have that huge lcd standard :-).
There is no doubt that Sync was first, but now Sync is the reason that Ford's ratings have dropped due to many issues and also sync doesnt mean some great multimedia - it comes with 1 liner lcd on some models.
While Toyota Touch will be standard on most Toyota's (as they keep updating lineup), with 6.1" display, Bluetooth, USB, Ipod, Trip Computer, Remote Camera coming standard on most models.
It also probably means that GS will have that huge lcd standard :-).
07-02-11, 03:29 PM
#73
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07-02-11, 04:54 PM
#75
Lexus Champion
This post is not for TRD Fantasy so please don't comment.
My hypothesis is that over time Hyundai will overtake Toyota in the mass market segment.
I think there is an inherent challenge for companies that own both a mass market and a luxury division - the challenge is separation.
If you sit inside a KIA Optima EX, you will notice leather stitched dash, more premium and realistic-looking wood accents, perforated leather ventilated seats, etc. The interior surpasses most entry-level luxury cars including the IS250.
You see this with Hyundai and KIA. Some of the newer Fords and Chryslers also have very luxurious options when you select higher trim levels. VW and Chevy do not.
Hyundai and Chrysler don't have a luxury brand to create separation from, so they can afford to go as far as the economics allow to create an exceptional degree of luxury features in a mass market car. Chrysler is even deploying 8-speed transmissions which I could not believe when I heard it.
So I think the challenge for Toyota is going to be prevent themselves from holding back to create separation to Lexus.
They need to run each as if they are completely independent, and try to beat the best of the competition.
So the 2012 Camry - design as far as I can tell looks nice. To be competitive they will need an interior quality better than the current IS. The XLE trim will need leather trimmed instrument cluster, much more premium wood finishes, soft touch materials, etc. The HS250h interior is what I think should be the interior of a Toyota vehicle, Lexus interiors should be more like what we see in the LF-GH concept. Also I think they should skip the 6 speed and go straight to a 7 or 8 speed transmission. Because these types of decisions would be what you do if you want to have the best product in the segment.
I hope they are willing to be the best - regardless of what it means for Lexus. If they worry too much about separation from current lexus models, they will gradually lose share to those who are prepared to over-deliver.
My hypothesis is that over time Hyundai will overtake Toyota in the mass market segment.
I think there is an inherent challenge for companies that own both a mass market and a luxury division - the challenge is separation.
If you sit inside a KIA Optima EX, you will notice leather stitched dash, more premium and realistic-looking wood accents, perforated leather ventilated seats, etc. The interior surpasses most entry-level luxury cars including the IS250.
You see this with Hyundai and KIA. Some of the newer Fords and Chryslers also have very luxurious options when you select higher trim levels. VW and Chevy do not.
Hyundai and Chrysler don't have a luxury brand to create separation from, so they can afford to go as far as the economics allow to create an exceptional degree of luxury features in a mass market car. Chrysler is even deploying 8-speed transmissions which I could not believe when I heard it.
So I think the challenge for Toyota is going to be prevent themselves from holding back to create separation to Lexus.
They need to run each as if they are completely independent, and try to beat the best of the competition.
So the 2012 Camry - design as far as I can tell looks nice. To be competitive they will need an interior quality better than the current IS. The XLE trim will need leather trimmed instrument cluster, much more premium wood finishes, soft touch materials, etc. The HS250h interior is what I think should be the interior of a Toyota vehicle, Lexus interiors should be more like what we see in the LF-GH concept. Also I think they should skip the 6 speed and go straight to a 7 or 8 speed transmission. Because these types of decisions would be what you do if you want to have the best product in the segment.
I hope they are willing to be the best - regardless of what it means for Lexus. If they worry too much about separation from current lexus models, they will gradually lose share to those who are prepared to over-deliver.
-Luxury cars usually pioneer technologies we eventually end up seeing on more mainstream cars. For example, Lexus was first with active park assist and 8 speed trannies and we're beginning to see both become available on more mainstream cars. Next gen luxury cars are expected to pioneer next gen technologies.
-I've been in both the Sonata and the Optima, and while the interior designs are good, materials quality and build is no match for even the entry level Lexus CT. Most plastics are hard (this is a trend with most new Toyota interiors as well, for example the new Sienna has very little soft touch plastics compared to the old one). The top end Optima has just a sliver of stitched leather surrounding the center stack. These cars are budget cars with midsize room and tons of features, but features alone don't make them competitive with luxury cars.
-What you're describing would in theory affect other luxury brands as well, especially the Germans who option features available on mainstream cars and don't have things like stitched leather dash accents even on $50k 5 series/A6/E-class models.
Toyota does not need to hold back, it's Lexus that needs to go all out with next gen technologies and features on future cars. The next GS will hint at the future of Lexus interiors, and so far I like what we've seen (again stitched leather dash and 11-12 inch nav screen is not something you will find on any A6/5series/Eclass).