TRDFantasy

No, it's not okay for BMW to do that either. FYI, a big difference with the 3 Series coupe and sedan is that they are very similar, while the Genesis coupe and sedan are quite different.

So Toyota was cocky then but Hyundai isn't cocky now? Double standard.

I see it everywhere. Hyundai has no shame and makes no effort to hide the fact that they imitate and mimic much of the competition, primarily Toyota. The Sonata looks like a melted and deformed Camry. The Elantra looks like a mishmash of Toyota, Lexus styling cues, with the added Hyundai "melted" look.

You can see it in their marketing, which has a lot of attitude to it. For example, the recent Kia commercial which I pointed out in another thread where they call Peter Schreyer "Kia's automobile designer, considered the best in the world" .

This ad:
http://youtu.be/ZhYGqZL2mpQ

Please explain then, if that's not arrogant or obnoxious, then what is it?

Then there is the Kia Soul "hamster ad", which shows all other vehicles as cardboard appliances. Ironic then, because the Soul itself looks like a fridge. That again is an example of arrogance. Hyundai and Kia also explicitly call out and compare their new vehicles to Toyota in commercials as well.

mmarshall

Welcome to Club Lexus. Here in CAR CHAT, unlike other forums in CL, we talk not only about Lexus products, but any make and model of car (and sometimes motorcycles, too). So, if it's anything about Hyundais you want to talk about.......fire away. Just make sure to stay within the thread topic...but you can start a thread on any car-related topic you want. We talk cars here around the clock....24 hours a day.

(I myself, BTW, like Subarus as daily-drivers, but I also owned a Lexus IS300)

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

Madoka, please exit this thread for personal comments towards others in this thread, bringing up years-old arguments, making sweeping generalizations (posts removed). Take a look at the sense of community sticky at the top of this forum and our Terms of Service. If you can't follow those guidelines, do not post here again.

Members, let's keep the conversation on the posts in the thread, not on the people posting in it.

Lexuslvr, please use the multi-quote feature if you don't mind if you are going to respond to a bunch of comments sequentially , thanks

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

toyota got complacent in the 00's focusing on sales rather than product and it hurt them bad. hyundai isn't doing that, so it's not a double standard.

i find it neither. it's called humor.

i'd say that's going after it and being edgy, not arrogant.

Fulorian

Car companies compete with each other. It's not a news flash to anyone, I hope - gently deriding your competition while promoting yourself is not exactly 'new' to the industry, or marketing in any way. That's not arrogance, that's competitiveness.

Toyota was arrogant because they believed they could shovel out uninspired, cheap vehicles and continue to skate by on their prior reputation. Hyundai isn't doing that, they're making claims that they can reasonably well back up.

I keep hearing the argument over and over that nobody will buy Genesis/Equus because of the lack of prestige, but they do sell, and there are plenty of people who don't care about the service department/hobnobbing with the guy in the Accent. They just want the best bang for the least buck.

It's funny - I saw my first Equus in the wild a couple weeks ago. It was in the parking garage at the Crescent, in Dallas, underneath the main office tower. That tower is pretty much 100% hedge funds and wealth management - the supermajority of those who work in that buildings are millionaires, or well on their way. I was just a guest there seeing a speaker, that car had a parking pass. So someone with money definitely was willing to make the leap.

But honestly, it doesn't matter if they sell tons of them. If the profile of the rest of the lineup is raised - if they can sell a Sonata for $1000 more, and increase sales by 20% at that price level, who cares if they aren't getting huge margins or sales numbers on the Equus or Genesis? You have to look at its effect on the whole line, holistically, not in isolation.

TRDFantasy

Toyota has been criticized for years for rushing out product too fast over the last several years. Now they are slowing down a bit to make quality a priority. Hyundai is rushing out product like crazy, yet they are getting praised for it. This is a double standard. Period. The previous-gen Sonata only had a 4 year life cycle. The new Sonata already has a bunch of quality problems that the media and those on the Hyundai bandwagon are mostly silent on.

Many of Hyundai and Kia's new products were rushed to market. This is the same thing that Toyota did years ago. Quality problems for Hyundai will happen with all this rushed product. It happened to Toyota, and there is no way Hyundai will avoid this.

Focusing on sales is exactly what Hyundai is doing now. Hyundai desperately wants to be the next Toyota. Call it aggressive, or call it whatever you want, but the fact is they are chasing sales not quality product. If Hyundai was after quality, they would not be desperate to compare themselves to Toyota at every turn, or rushing out new product so quickly. They would be releasing new product a bit slower to focus on quality.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

really? i've never seen it. they've been criticized for other things though, like tacked on trim for 'S' or 'Sport' models (from the Corolla to even their top of the line LS460 - smh) or obviously cheapened interiors and boring designs, but not rushing.

again, false dichotomy. hyundai is praised for what toyota DIDN'T do, which is launch a bunch of fresh stylish and different products that represent an incredible value. people say all hyundai does is copy, but i see nothing like the sonata and elantra on the road. sure other things are more copies like genesis (more like a longer 3 series sedan or last gen M35, not really anything like E/5/GS), and sorrento (cheaper RX knockoff).

i disagree. hyundai is focusing on product, knowing if the product is great, the sales will follow. toyota forgot that for a while, figuring anything they do will sell. it won't.

a slower product cycle does not guarantee higher quality. and being 'desperate to compare themselves to toyota' doesn't mean they're not after quality - i don't understand your logic at all.

i will say this though, putting out a lot of product fast is definitely risky and hyundai could well trip and stumble at some point. so far, they haven't.

mmarshall

I have to agree with Paul on this one. I am not a fan of the latest styling-trends on the Hyundai Sonata/Elantra/Accent/Tucson by any means, but I have to admit that they are unique......no one can truly call them a copy of any other automaker.


Yep. Jaguar and Land Rover certainly proved that.

TRDFantasy

All I will say is I encourage you to talk to some mechanics about Hyundai's supposed "quality" and "reliability". I've talked to several mechanics, and I've seen first hand where Hyundai cuts corners in their new vehicles, in areas that many competitors do not. The reason Hyundai/Kia offers so much perceived value is not due mostly due their undervalued currency. Contrary to popular belief, Hyundai/Kia offer so much value in their products because they cut corners in a lot of ways. Consumers will notice these once the cars have many many miles on them and long-term issues start to pop up.

mmarshall

What did these mechanics/technicians you talked to have to say, and how were corners being cut?

I don't claim to be an expert, but I look at and review a lot of new vehicles, from Hyundai/Kia as well as from other makes, and I'm generally impressed with what I see from Hyundai (though the new Hyundai styling is a bit much). Overall Hyundai quality, right now, to me, seems to be at a par with what we were seeing from Toyota and Honda up to just a few years ago. Sure, there's a lot of plastic in the interiors, but that is the case with most vehicles nowadays.

So, if you have seen some things on new Hyundai vehicles that you think go beyond the usual cost-cutting that one sees from many manufacturers today (manual hood prop-rods, temporary spare tires, lack of body-side moldings, etc...), please share them with us.

TRDFantasy

Well you can start with Hyundai's warranty, which applies to original owners only. If you buy a Hyundai used, you automatically lose out on Hyundai's 10 year warranty. Hyundai obviously doesn't advertise this aspect of their warranty. This is compared to most of the competition, where the warranty will still be valid no matter who is the owner of the car, as long as the warranty period has not run out.

Several mechanics I talked to say that on used Hyundais they work on, they commonly repair or change suspension control arms and sub-frames. A friend of mine that works in service at a Hyundai dealership says in their garage they have a huge stack of sub-frames for Hyundai models, because sub-frames apparently get replaced quite often, mainly due to rust problems.

Other mechanics I've talked to say Hyundai uses lower quality steel, and for many mechanical components thinner steel than some competitors. One mechanic also told me that Hyundai does not use forged cranks, compared to some of the competition which does use forged cranks in their engines.

It's little details like that which show how Hyundai is offering so much perceived value. Then there is the problem of refinement and ride on new Hyundai/Kia models. Many of their new models have noisy or rough engines, and poor and uncomfortable rides on rough roads. Making a vehicle refined in a variety of driving conditions take time and money, and that is something that Hyundai has cut corners in, so to speak. There are other little things, like an apparent alignment or front suspension problem on the new Sonata, turbo problems on both the Sonata and Genesis, and the electrical wiring problems on the Kia Soul, as examples.

Some owners of new Hyundai/Kia models have been complaining as well about thinly padded seats that get uncomfortable after a while.

My0gr81

Hyundai cars have a bad long term reliability records, that was true in the past. Can't really say for the new generation as not enough time has passed. I think GM cars are the same aren't they? This is reflected in the purchase price, as well as in resale value. The market takes care of these things.

Hasn't Toyota adjusted the MTTF of certain components based on planned obsolescense and costs efficiency? Any car will have issues after they have many many miles on them, regardless of manufacturer. Some more than others, but again, that usually shows up in the value proposition from purchase price to resale value.

TRDFantasy

That's the point. Not enough time has passed for the new Hyundai/Kia models to prove themselves as being reliable, yet many on the internet are proclaiming Hyundai/Kia overall quality and reliability is very close to Toyota and Honda now, with little facts to back it up.

Perhaps in the models over the last few years Toyota may have adjusted MTTF for certain parts, but MTTF now is going up for Toyota, not down. Toyota warranty rates remain one of, if not the lowest in the industry. A lot of 2006 model year Toyotas, that had some minor quality issues are overall still running strong for many owners.

GSteg

iTrader: (15)

First off, the subframes are there due to a recall. Any company that has a recall will have a stack of parts laying around somewhere. It doesn't mean they cut corners. Lots of times you do not see the long term effect until the product is out there for a while and it's not until then you find the problem(s). Every company goes through this.

And I wouldn't count on the mechanic's word on anything. Most of them just fix cars, but they try to act like engineers. Mechanics aren't metallurgist and anyone in the industry will know that you cannot judge a book by its cover, which makes it more laughable that the 'mechanics' said Hyundai does not use forged cranks. Yes there are Hyundai that uses forged cranks. Here is another news: Not all cars need forged cranks. Regular steel crank that's been nitrided will suffice, and not all Toyota uses forged cranks either. Many of them are cast from the factory. Does that mean Toyota cut corners? No. It just means it works well enough in that particular application.

TRDFantasy

To try and discount a mechanic's word is a bit silly as well. No they're not engineers, but they ARE working on cars daily, and have expertise and experience with parts in terms of how they are constructed, how easily repairable they are, and what car brands have trouble spots and problem areas.

I've had several mechanics tell me the same thing about Hyundai and their supposed quality, so it is not mere coincidence and there is definitely something to it.