Lexus it is time! Can we please get a car that man, woman and child all lust after?
08-13-11, 10:38 PM
#16
I understand that they aren't high volume sellers but do they have to be? I think Toyota/Lexus has the capital and resources to develop and successfully market a car of this caliber. In all likelihood, I think it would actually outsell these other "niche" cars. I totally agree that Lexus has other issues it needs to address. But in many ways, sexy aggressively desiged sedan may address some of their issues especially if it drives sporty and has F-Sport styling. As for a loyalty base, I think they have a core audience of repeat buyers and would actually only increase sales by breaking from their mold with a non conventional model.
toyota has the capital for sure, but doesn't mean they should spend it like that (look at US government). if you look at mb, when did they push out cars like cls? porsche with panamera? audi with a7? not until they have a much stronger consistent base.
AND this is when they all have some other solid performance cars already, which imho is crucial in attracting impulse buyers who are more into cool factors. toyota and lexus buyers today, they are mostly sensible buyers. they buy lexus because it makes sense. best bang for the bucks. but those aren't what it takes to sell niche vehicles
08-13-11, 10:54 PM
#17
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^^ very good post 
the cls for example is a niche car, and only makes sense with other more steady sellers already in place.
the cls for example is a niche car, and only makes sense with other more steady sellers already in place.
08-13-11, 11:27 PM
#18
Lexus Test Driver
For the most part, Lexus has gone after a more conservative, executive, and subdue class of people. The RX and ES, and the IS to some extent, have been nice cars for those who don't want to drive something that makes a huge statement and creates a lot of attention. As enthusiasts, we see it differently. But the masses like Lexus's position and I think it works well for the company.
I predict the new GS will be edgier, but will not sell much better than the current conservative GS.
I predict the new GS will be edgier, but will not sell much better than the current conservative GS.
08-13-11, 11:42 PM
#19
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lexus has good loyalty base, but it's mostly in the ES and RX imho. look at the sales numbers of GS and LS and with the sharp decline over the years, imho that's not loyalty. by comparison if you look at the sales of E and 5, or S and 7, they are relatively more consistent, indicating a stronger loyalty base.
toyota has the capital for sure, but doesn't mean they should spend it like that (look at US government). if you look at mb, when did they push out cars like cls? porsche with panamera? audi with a7? not until they have a much stronger consistent base.
AND this is when they all have some other solid performance cars already, which imho is crucial in attracting impulse buyers who are more into cool factors. toyota and lexus buyers today, they are mostly sensible buyers. they buy lexus because it makes sense. best bang for the bucks. but those aren't what it takes to sell niche vehicles
toyota has the capital for sure, but doesn't mean they should spend it like that (look at US government). if you look at mb, when did they push out cars like cls? porsche with panamera? audi with a7? not until they have a much stronger consistent base.
AND this is when they all have some other solid performance cars already, which imho is crucial in attracting impulse buyers who are more into cool factors. toyota and lexus buyers today, they are mostly sensible buyers. they buy lexus because it makes sense. best bang for the bucks. but those aren't what it takes to sell niche vehicles
Though Lexus isn't a huge global player the way Audi and BMW are or have the financial backing of Porsche with VW's deep pockets, I think Lexus is strong enough here in the states to at least put their toe in the water. I also agree that they have to address their lack of coupes and a temporarily defunct SC. With all of the cash that they haul in from the RX and ES, I honestly feel they can take the plunge much in the way that Porsche did with all of that Cayenne money to develop the Panamera. Now I realize that SUV had a HUUUUGE profit margin for them, there has to be someone on the design team in Torrance or Toyota City waiting for the green light to make a game changer for Lexus. The F sport idea is great in theory but what good is it if it will only be executed on bland cars. AMG and M// means something for a reason. They aren't desired purely because of the history behind them. People see those models and think WANT. They symbolize fast, sex appeal, wealth and exclusivity. Perhaps not on the level of a Bugatti, but rare enough. Lexus jumped the line 20 years ago to become a genuine Luxury brand and I think they can do it again if they really had a desire to.
08-14-11, 01:47 PM
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An old 1st Generation Camry in exceptional shape will get my attention more than an Audi R8 or one of those god-awful Mercedes CLS, which is a car Lexus shouldn't waste their time with IMO.
08-14-11, 03:33 PM
#22
For the most part, Lexus has gone after a more conservative, executive, and subdue class of people. The RX and ES, and the IS to some extent, have been nice cars for those who don't want to drive something that makes a huge statement and creates a lot of attention. As enthusiasts, we see it differently. But the masses like Lexus's position and I think it works well for the company.
I predict the new GS will be edgier, but will not sell much better than the current conservative GS.
I predict the new GS will be edgier, but will not sell much better than the current conservative GS.
Hard to argue that. You've made great points. I just feel that Lexus can expand their base by actually taking this initiative. Though it may be risky, I honestly think it would work. Over the past 3 or 4 years they added 3 years they've added 4 all new models all with mixed results of course. I would have much rather have seen a GS in CLS skin rather than the HS250 or IS-C. Easier to develop off of an existing platform and it would have easily outsold whatever numbers the HS and IS-C are doing.
Though Lexus isn't a huge global player the way Audi and BMW are or have the financial backing of Porsche with VW's deep pockets, I think Lexus is strong enough here in the states to at least put their toe in the water. I also agree that they have to address their lack of coupes and a temporarily defunct SC. With all of the cash that they haul in from the RX and ES, I honestly feel they can take the plunge much in the way that Porsche did with all of that Cayenne money to develop the Panamera. Now I realize that SUV had a HUUUUGE profit margin for them, there has to be someone on the design team in Torrance or Toyota City waiting for the green light to make a game changer for Lexus. The F sport idea is great in theory but what good is it if it will only be executed on bland cars. AMG and M// means something for a reason. They aren't desired purely because of the history behind them. People see those models and think WANT. They symbolize fast, sex appeal, wealth and exclusivity. Perhaps not on the level of a Bugatti, but rare enough. Lexus jumped the line 20 years ago to become a genuine Luxury brand and I think they can do it again if they really had a desire to.
Though Lexus isn't a huge global player the way Audi and BMW are or have the financial backing of Porsche with VW's deep pockets, I think Lexus is strong enough here in the states to at least put their toe in the water. I also agree that they have to address their lack of coupes and a temporarily defunct SC. With all of the cash that they haul in from the RX and ES, I honestly feel they can take the plunge much in the way that Porsche did with all of that Cayenne money to develop the Panamera. Now I realize that SUV had a HUUUUGE profit margin for them, there has to be someone on the design team in Torrance or Toyota City waiting for the green light to make a game changer for Lexus. The F sport idea is great in theory but what good is it if it will only be executed on bland cars. AMG and M// means something for a reason. They aren't desired purely because of the history behind them. People see those models and think WANT. They symbolize fast, sex appeal, wealth and exclusivity. Perhaps not on the level of a Bugatti, but rare enough. Lexus jumped the line 20 years ago to become a genuine Luxury brand and I think they can do it again if they really had a desire to.
toyota definitely has the cash, but another factor i didn't mention yet is what dragged them for the past 5 years -- quality. if their quality on both toyota and lexus side didn't degrade the way it's been, maybe they are more ready. but as of now they need to fix that much bigger problem before they can move forward. we all need to keep in mind. toyota and lexus are successful not because of their cool factor, but largely their incredible quality and reliability. they cannot afford to lose out on that.
i truly believe lexus can do it and i definitely hope so, but i think they need to fix a few other issues first. i have owned 5 lexus in the past 9 years and i clearly see the ups and downs. it seems like they want to change things around with the 4gs, i have high hope of that, especially after seeing the ct (which i still think is a cool great idea)
08-14-11, 04:14 PM
#23
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I will say, being an outsider that the sexiest car to have ever worn the Lexus badge is the SC coupes. I saw one rolling yesterday, pearl, slammed on what looks like 19 inch wheels, simply stunning. When modded right, not even the best executed ISF can touch an SC coupe. To this day I can't fathom why they killed that car....
08-14-11, 04:17 PM
#24
to be completely fair, i don't think that's a "wrong" decision by any means, because for all i care toyota is damn successful and they make a lot of money. but of course, to us driving enthusiasts, it's been disappointing for at least the last decade.
you brought up a great point yourself, lack of coupes. if lexus hasn't even secured the coupe section in a solid fashion, i don't think it's time for 4 door coupe or other cool cars. look at bmw with 3 coupe, 6, and z4 (as ugly as it is). mb with c coupe (coming), e coupe, slk, sl, cl, and sls (if you go that far). porsche well, they started out with coupes, haha... but lexus has a totally broken isc (i don't think we need to go there), sc430 that's discontinued after 10 yrs, lfa is great idea but rarer than rare. one good thing i see now is the ct, that's a step in the right direction.
toyota definitely has the cash, but another factor i didn't mention yet is what dragged them for the past 5 years -- quality. if their quality on both toyota and lexus side didn't degrade the way it's been, maybe they are more ready. but as of now they need to fix that much bigger problem before they can move forward. we all need to keep in mind. toyota and lexus are successful not because of their cool factor, but largely their incredible quality and reliability. they cannot afford to lose out on that.
i truly believe lexus can do it and i definitely hope so, but i think they need to fix a few other issues first. i have owned 5 lexus in the past 9 years and i clearly see the ups and downs. it seems like they want to change things around with the 4gs, i have high hope of that, especially after seeing the ct (which i still think is a cool great idea)
you brought up a great point yourself, lack of coupes. if lexus hasn't even secured the coupe section in a solid fashion, i don't think it's time for 4 door coupe or other cool cars. look at bmw with 3 coupe, 6, and z4 (as ugly as it is). mb with c coupe (coming), e coupe, slk, sl, cl, and sls (if you go that far). porsche well, they started out with coupes, haha... but lexus has a totally broken isc (i don't think we need to go there), sc430 that's discontinued after 10 yrs, lfa is great idea but rarer than rare. one good thing i see now is the ct, that's a step in the right direction.
toyota definitely has the cash, but another factor i didn't mention yet is what dragged them for the past 5 years -- quality. if their quality on both toyota and lexus side didn't degrade the way it's been, maybe they are more ready. but as of now they need to fix that much bigger problem before they can move forward. we all need to keep in mind. toyota and lexus are successful not because of their cool factor, but largely their incredible quality and reliability. they cannot afford to lose out on that.
i truly believe lexus can do it and i definitely hope so, but i think they need to fix a few other issues first. i have owned 5 lexus in the past 9 years and i clearly see the ups and downs. it seems like they want to change things around with the 4gs, i have high hope of that, especially after seeing the ct (which i still think is a cool great idea)
even after the recalls, most of which have been for mats, many surveys are rating Lexus and Toyota as #1 Luxury and non-Luxury brands.
So I dont see why Lexus need to "fix" their #1 status, while it is ok for BMW to be rated awful but it is ok since it is BMW as you as an customer expect them to fail.
08-14-11, 06:42 PM
#25
quality did not drag toyota or lexus for the past 5 years. toyota has become #1 manufacturer in 2007, not before. In fact, Toyota has become #1 manufacturer due to these models on sale today, not due to anything else.
even after the recalls, most of which have been for mats, many surveys are rating Lexus and Toyota as #1 Luxury and non-Luxury brands.
So I dont see why Lexus need to "fix" their #1 status, while it is ok for BMW to be rated awful but it is ok since it is BMW as you as an customer expect them to fail.
even after the recalls, most of which have been for mats, many surveys are rating Lexus and Toyota as #1 Luxury and non-Luxury brands.
So I dont see why Lexus need to "fix" their #1 status, while it is ok for BMW to be rated awful but it is ok since it is BMW as you as an customer expect them to fail.
if you actually put your hands WORKING on these vehicles like i do rather than just reading silly survey reports, and also talk to people in the industry, then you will see how quality is nothing like the 01-05 era anymore. i talk to a lot of people who take apart cars for a living, they agree that the current lexus is nothing like the early 2000s anymore, from fit and finish to the durability. and this includes lexus technicians as well.
and btw, my 5 lexus so far pretty much tell me the same thing as well, including my ls460l. a lot of things don't line up and they often don't fit well. to some extend, every gs i work on they don't fit the same. that's real world experience. it's not something survey can tell by talking to owners who hardly touch their cars to the extend of revealing the details
08-14-11, 06:43 PM
#26
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For the most part, Lexus has gone after a more conservative, executive, and subdue class of people. The RX and ES, and the IS to some extent, have been nice cars for those who don't want to drive something that makes a huge statement and creates a lot of attention. As enthusiasts, we see it differently. But the masses like Lexus's position and I think it works well for the company.
I predict the new GS will be edgier, but will not sell much better than the current conservative GS.
I predict the new GS will be edgier, but will not sell much better than the current conservative GS.
The ISF is a great car as is the LS and top dog LS Hybrid. Well executed designs with signature Lexus craftsmanship. There just needs to be more offered along those lines.
I'm your same age, and I love cars like the ES (yes, you read right), IS, LS, GS, and of course the LF-A. I love nice, good looking cars like that and I don't get why other so called "enthusiasts" rag on them all the time when often they drive something that doesn't appeal to me or is a straight up POS.
An old 1st Generation Camry in exceptional shape will get my attention more than an Audi R8 or one of those god-awful Mercedes CLS, which is a car Lexus shouldn't waste their time with IMO.
An old 1st Generation Camry in exceptional shape will get my attention more than an Audi R8 or one of those god-awful Mercedes CLS, which is a car Lexus shouldn't waste their time with IMO.
I feel where you're coming from regarding the 1st paragraph, however you lost me with the R8 and CLS. You ARE joking right?
I totally understand that beauty is subjective but seriously....You can't possibly tell us that you break your neck for a Camry, let alone a 20 something year old one, over an R8. Not to sound like Iverson with the infamous "practice" press conference....But Camry? We're talking about a Camry? J/k it's all good we all are moved by different things.
08-14-11, 08:04 PM
#27
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It's possible, but I sure hope not. I think it will all depend on how well Lexus markets this car to the public....they need to offer a sportier product (this will happen) and then follow through big time by letting people know why it deserves their attention. I'm really curious how the new GS and FR-S commericals and print ads are gonna look.
08-14-11, 09:18 PM
#28
Lexus Test Driver
I disagree that Lexus is a Tier 1 brand.......Its farther from it now then it was in the late 90s to early 2000s.
IMO its Tier 2 along with Audi, Cadillac and Jaguar. The reason for this is their lineup is incomplete to take on BMW or MB. Lexus has huge shortcomings when it comes to Coupes(ie MB SL, SLK, E coupe, C coupe, CL or BMW Z, 3series, 1series, 6series), Performance models (AMG or M), Technology (nothing new), Design (No common design language), and Customization (I can build any Bimmer or MB with myriads of options/colors, Lexus has none of this....Good luck getting RWD model in NYC)
BTW the LFA is cool, but having a supercar doesnt make up for all the other shortcomings. I hope they build on the excitement of the LFA and not let it go to waste.
There is ZERO interest for me in any current Lexus vehicles. I hope the 4GS will change this, but the news of no V8 and same old V6 and 6speed Auto is def not good. Can anyone explain why the hell there is no V8 option? Are we targeting Acura or MB/BMW these days? Even Infiniti M, Jaguar and Caddies have V8s. Not a good sign as far as prestige.
Cars like the 1st gen LS, SC, RX and 2nd gen GS were segment leaders in power, luxury and technology. The current lineup has none of that. WTF happened? The Germans woke up and Lexus has given up pretty much. Hyundai is putting up more of a fight imo.
BTW my family which previously owned over the years 2 LSs, 3 RXs, and 2 GSs has no Lexus cars. Switched to BMW.
I'm still a huge fan of Lexus and respect the brand but they need to start over or they will be a failure like Acura.
IMO its Tier 2 along with Audi, Cadillac and Jaguar. The reason for this is their lineup is incomplete to take on BMW or MB. Lexus has huge shortcomings when it comes to Coupes(ie MB SL, SLK, E coupe, C coupe, CL or BMW Z, 3series, 1series, 6series), Performance models (AMG or M), Technology (nothing new), Design (No common design language), and Customization (I can build any Bimmer or MB with myriads of options/colors, Lexus has none of this....Good luck getting RWD model in NYC)
BTW the LFA is cool, but having a supercar doesnt make up for all the other shortcomings. I hope they build on the excitement of the LFA and not let it go to waste.
There is ZERO interest for me in any current Lexus vehicles. I hope the 4GS will change this, but the news of no V8 and same old V6 and 6speed Auto is def not good. Can anyone explain why the hell there is no V8 option? Are we targeting Acura or MB/BMW these days? Even Infiniti M, Jaguar and Caddies have V8s. Not a good sign as far as prestige.
Cars like the 1st gen LS, SC, RX and 2nd gen GS were segment leaders in power, luxury and technology. The current lineup has none of that. WTF happened? The Germans woke up and Lexus has given up pretty much. Hyundai is putting up more of a fight imo.
BTW my family which previously owned over the years 2 LSs, 3 RXs, and 2 GSs has no Lexus cars. Switched to BMW.
I'm still a huge fan of Lexus and respect the brand but they need to start over or they will be a failure like Acura.
08-14-11, 10:16 PM
#29
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I disagree that Lexus is a Tier 1 brand.......Its farther from it now then it was in the late 90s to early 2000s.
IMO its Tier 2 along with Audi, Cadillac and Jaguar. The reason for this is their lineup is incomplete to take on BMW or MB. Lexus has huge shortcomings when it comes to Coupes(ie MB SL, SLK, E coupe, C coupe, CL or BMW Z, 3series, 1series, 6series), Performance models (AMG or M), Technology (nothing new), Design (No common design language), and Customization (I can build any Bimmer or MB with myriads of options/colors, Lexus has none of this....Good luck getting RWD model in NYC)
BTW the LFA is cool, but having a supercar doesnt make up for all the other shortcomings. I hope they build on the excitement of the LFA and not let it go to waste.
There is ZERO interest for me in any current Lexus vehicles. I hope the 4GS will change this, but the news of no V8 and same old V6 and 6speed Auto is def not good. Can anyone explain why the hell there is no V8 option? Are we targeting Acura or MB/BMW these days? Even Infiniti M, Jaguar and Caddies have V8s. Not a good sign as far as prestige.
Cars like the 1st gen LS, SC, RX and 2nd gen GS were segment leaders in power, luxury and technology. The current lineup has none of that. WTF happened? The Germans woke up and Lexus has given up pretty much. Hyundai is putting up more of a fight imo.
BTW my family which previously owned over the years 2 LSs, 3 RXs, and 2 GSs has no Lexus cars. Switched to BMW.
I'm still a huge fan of Lexus and respect the brand but they need to start over or they will be a failure like Acura.
IMO its Tier 2 along with Audi, Cadillac and Jaguar. The reason for this is their lineup is incomplete to take on BMW or MB. Lexus has huge shortcomings when it comes to Coupes(ie MB SL, SLK, E coupe, C coupe, CL or BMW Z, 3series, 1series, 6series), Performance models (AMG or M), Technology (nothing new), Design (No common design language), and Customization (I can build any Bimmer or MB with myriads of options/colors, Lexus has none of this....Good luck getting RWD model in NYC)
BTW the LFA is cool, but having a supercar doesnt make up for all the other shortcomings. I hope they build on the excitement of the LFA and not let it go to waste.
There is ZERO interest for me in any current Lexus vehicles. I hope the 4GS will change this, but the news of no V8 and same old V6 and 6speed Auto is def not good. Can anyone explain why the hell there is no V8 option? Are we targeting Acura or MB/BMW these days? Even Infiniti M, Jaguar and Caddies have V8s. Not a good sign as far as prestige.
Cars like the 1st gen LS, SC, RX and 2nd gen GS were segment leaders in power, luxury and technology. The current lineup has none of that. WTF happened? The Germans woke up and Lexus has given up pretty much. Hyundai is putting up more of a fight imo.
BTW my family which previously owned over the years 2 LSs, 3 RXs, and 2 GSs has no Lexus cars. Switched to BMW.
I'm still a huge fan of Lexus and respect the brand but they need to start over or they will be a failure like Acura.
Lexus is Tier 1, but still below both BMW and Mercedes (both of which have newer lineups) and due to a stagnating lineup they have slipped a bit in both sales and image.
As for the GS, it will be packed with technology, both in terms of chassis/platform tech and convenience features. It should have no problem keeping up with the A6, 5er and E-class in this area, it may even be shooting for the top spot. Lexus wants to replace the V8 with a hybrid, whether that works in the end will depend on specs and performance. Audi though seems to be managing just fine, the 3.0T can keep up with the heavier V8 Germans without problem and the GS is even lighter than the A6. Newer engines should come a year or so after the car is launched if we go by past models. Similarly if past models are an indication sales wise this car will be third in the segment, again Tier 1. There will also likely be an "F" version sporting a high performance V8 a few years in, probably after the new engines are introduced with the LS redesign.
The GS will also preview Lexus' future design language which will be applied across the line. This car is the first new real Lexus in a long time and how it turns out has big implications on the future of the brand.
BMW is almost finished redoing their entire lineup and Mercedes is 3/4 way there, but Lexus is just getting started. Fooling around with compact Toyota based hybrids is great and all, but the core models like the IS, GS (coupe and F version) and LS will all be redesigned over the next 18 months. It's with these models that new technology and competitive performance will be introduced.
Last edited by Mr. Burns; 08-14-11 at 10:24 PM.
08-14-11, 10:48 PM
#30
Lexus Test Driver
I disagree.....Lexus is not Tier 1 even in the US, maybe at one point it was about a decade ago.
Jaguar with the XF and amazing XJ, and Audi with the A/S5, A7, R8 are much more desirable and carry more prestige than any current Lexus.
Hell i see more Panameras and Cayenes now then LS and GX/LX.
Camry based RX and ES sales are the bulk of Lexus sales. IS, HS, GS, GX, LX and LS all sell poorly. So I wouldn't be bragging too much of sales volume.
What new tech is the 4GS debuting? This is news to me. Isn't the powertrain the most important part? - I do like Fsport option and new Nav.
BMW is just getting started.....New 3 series, New 4 series, New 6 series (4door coupe), i Models, New M3, New M5.
Lexus - Where is the SC, new F models, new V8, new tech, new segment maker (ie RX or hybrid models).
Jaguar with the XF and amazing XJ, and Audi with the A/S5, A7, R8 are much more desirable and carry more prestige than any current Lexus.
Hell i see more Panameras and Cayenes now then LS and GX/LX.
Camry based RX and ES sales are the bulk of Lexus sales. IS, HS, GS, GX, LX and LS all sell poorly. So I wouldn't be bragging too much of sales volume.
What new tech is the 4GS debuting? This is news to me. Isn't the powertrain the most important part? - I do like Fsport option and new Nav.
BMW is just getting started.....New 3 series, New 4 series, New 6 series (4door coupe), i Models, New M3, New M5.
Lexus - Where is the SC, new F models, new V8, new tech, new segment maker (ie RX or hybrid models).