Toyota, BMW may build green cars together
11-29-11, 07:34 AM
#16
This could hurt Lexus, the one thing they bank on is Hybrids. If BMW gets their tech, they lose their one distinct selling point in Europe. Badge snobs won't care if Lexus gets diesels unfortunately.
11-29-11, 12:20 PM
#17
Lead Lap
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: MI
Posts: 562
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
11-29-11, 12:22 PM
#18
I drive a BMW with a diesel engine and I've had no issues. My car is now at 80,871 km and the engine runs and feels like the day I bought the [used] car.
BMW diesel engines have a reputation for reliability. And don't forget that there are suppliers that provide certain parts for engines for all manufacturers out there.
BMW diesel engines have a reputation for reliability. And don't forget that there are suppliers that provide certain parts for engines for all manufacturers out there.
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/reli...our-car/258307
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/jd-p...-winner/257096
However Toyota definitively does not make enough Lexus and Toyota vehicles to constantly develop these higher end diesels.
I dont think they would replace their 124hp and 150hp engines, just their top end 177hp engine (which has truck transmission and no Auto), and probably for next gen IS and possibly GS, as well as top versions of rest of their cars. But I see this more relevant to Lexus than actual Toyota.
BMW used to use Toyota's 1.4 D4D engine in Mini Cooper but switched to Peugeot in later versions. They also dont have small diesels either. Currently main issue with Toyota range is low end diesels and not top end ones.
11-30-11, 06:55 PM
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
I find it to be great news.
11-30-11, 07:16 PM
#21
Driver
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: GA
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think that this is a very interesting merge of companies. I believe that it will help out BMW far greater then Toyota though. Sure Toyota is going to game some knowledge about diesel engines for their truck line but in retrospect BMW is going to gain knowledge for their whole line of products.
12-01-11, 08:32 AM
#22
Lexus Test Driver
12-01-11, 03:19 PM
#23
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
despite what we read on message boards in the UK, fact is that JD Powers keeps constantly rating IS220d as most reliable car in the UK.
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/reli...our-car/258307
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/jd-p...-winner/257096
However Toyota definitively does not make enough Lexus and Toyota vehicles to constantly develop these higher end diesels.
I dont think they would replace their 124hp and 150hp engines, just their top end 177hp engine (which has truck transmission and no Auto), and probably for next gen IS and possibly GS, as well as top versions of rest of their cars. But I see this more relevant to Lexus than actual Toyota.
BMW used to use Toyota's 1.4 D4D engine in Mini Cooper but switched to Peugeot in later versions. They also dont have small diesels either. Currently main issue with Toyota range is low end diesels and not top end ones.
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/reli...our-car/258307
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/jd-p...-winner/257096
However Toyota definitively does not make enough Lexus and Toyota vehicles to constantly develop these higher end diesels.
I dont think they would replace their 124hp and 150hp engines, just their top end 177hp engine (which has truck transmission and no Auto), and probably for next gen IS and possibly GS, as well as top versions of rest of their cars. But I see this more relevant to Lexus than actual Toyota.
BMW used to use Toyota's 1.4 D4D engine in Mini Cooper but switched to Peugeot in later versions. They also dont have small diesels either. Currently main issue with Toyota range is low end diesels and not top end ones.
The biggest problem the IS diesel has in Europe is that it's the only diesel available for the IS. You need more to compete with the Europeans and create appeal. The IS needs say two or three differently tuned 4-cylinder diesels and a top-of-the-line 6-cylinder diesel to act as a flagship diesel.
But more than that, the lack of an IS wagon means people don't even take a glance at Lexus.
My wife and I are considering buying a used W204 Mercedes C class diesel wagon because the trunk space is enormous (bigger than that of the A4 and 3er wagons). My wife will need this car for her photography business as she is buying more and more equipment for herself.
12-01-11, 03:44 PM
#24
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: CA
Posts: 2,010
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think that this is a very interesting merge of companies. I believe that it will help out BMW far greater then Toyota though. Sure Toyota is going to game some knowledge about diesel engines for their truck line but in retrospect BMW is going to gain knowledge for their whole line of products.
Last edited by ydooby; 12-01-11 at 07:36 PM.
12-01-11, 10:52 PM
#25
Official: BMW and Toyota agree to collaborate on future green technology
BMW and Toyota agree to collaborate on future green technology
BMW has confirmed the German automaker will join forces with Toyota to create new green technologies. The two companies have signed a memorandum of understanding for mid-to-long-term collaboration on next-generation lithium-ion battery technology, with the option to expand the partnership into additional areas. BMW has also announced the company will supply Toyota with 1.6-liter and 2.0-liter diesel engines beginning in 2014. That doesn't mean we'll be seeing a clean-diesel Prius in the U.S. anytime soon, however. BMW stresses that the engines will be used exclusively in Toyota products destined for the European market.
What other sorts of tech could be spread between the two automakers? BMW may have an eye on gleaning some hybrid knowledge from the fiercely successful Prius program, and we wouldn't be surprised if BMW slipped its new partner a few hints on carbon-fiber construction, either. Either way, the partnership will likely save both automakers plenty of research and development dollars, helping to bring new tech to customers with a slimmer price tag than would otherwise be possible.
BMW Group and Toyota Agree to Mid-to-long-term Research Collaboration in Environment-friendly Technologies
BMW Group to Supply 1.6L and 2.0L BMW Fuel Efficient Diesel Engines to Toyota Motor
Tokio/München - December 1, 2011... BMW Group and Toyota Motor Corporation (TMC) announce that they today signed a memorandum of understanding (MOU) concerning a mid-to-long-term collaboration on next-generation environment-friendly technologies.
Under the MOU, the two companies agreed on a collaborative research in the field of next-generation lithium-ion battery technologies. Furthermore, they have agreed to identify and discuss other possible collaborative projects.
In addition, Toyota Motor Europe (TME), TMC's European subsidiary, and BMW Group have entered into a contract under which BMW Group is to supply 1.6 liter and 2.0 liter diesel engines to TME starting in 2014. The engines will be installed in certain Toyota-produced vehicles planned for sale in the European market. Through this agreement, Toyota plans to expand its European lineup and sales of fuel-efficient, low CO2-emission diesel-powered vehicles.
Marking the announcement, Norbert Reithofer, Chairman of the Board of Management of BMW AG, said: "Toyota is the leading provider of environment-friendly series technology in the volume segment and the BMW Group is the most innovative and sustainable manufacturer of premium automobiles. We are now joining forces to further develop environment-friendly technologies and to expand our innovation leadership in each of our segments. Supplying Toyota with our fuel efficient and dynamic diesel engines represents another important step in the planned expansion of our sales activities for engines and powertrain systems."
Representing TMC, President Akio Toyoda said: "It is a great joy and a thrill to enter into this mid-to-long-term collaborative relationship with BMW, a company with its own culture and history from its many years of car manufacturing in Europe, and a company that makes cars that are fun to drive. In the spirit of contributing to furthering the development of the auto industry and society, both companies will bring their wide-ranging knowledge - starting with that concerning environmental technologies - to the table and make ever-better cars."
BMW Group to Supply 1.6L and 2.0L BMW Fuel Efficient Diesel Engines to Toyota Motor
Tokio/München - December 1, 2011... BMW Group and Toyota Motor Corporation (TMC) announce that they today signed a memorandum of understanding (MOU) concerning a mid-to-long-term collaboration on next-generation environment-friendly technologies.
Under the MOU, the two companies agreed on a collaborative research in the field of next-generation lithium-ion battery technologies. Furthermore, they have agreed to identify and discuss other possible collaborative projects.
In addition, Toyota Motor Europe (TME), TMC's European subsidiary, and BMW Group have entered into a contract under which BMW Group is to supply 1.6 liter and 2.0 liter diesel engines to TME starting in 2014. The engines will be installed in certain Toyota-produced vehicles planned for sale in the European market. Through this agreement, Toyota plans to expand its European lineup and sales of fuel-efficient, low CO2-emission diesel-powered vehicles.
Marking the announcement, Norbert Reithofer, Chairman of the Board of Management of BMW AG, said: "Toyota is the leading provider of environment-friendly series technology in the volume segment and the BMW Group is the most innovative and sustainable manufacturer of premium automobiles. We are now joining forces to further develop environment-friendly technologies and to expand our innovation leadership in each of our segments. Supplying Toyota with our fuel efficient and dynamic diesel engines represents another important step in the planned expansion of our sales activities for engines and powertrain systems."
Representing TMC, President Akio Toyoda said: "It is a great joy and a thrill to enter into this mid-to-long-term collaborative relationship with BMW, a company with its own culture and history from its many years of car manufacturing in Europe, and a company that makes cars that are fun to drive. In the spirit of contributing to furthering the development of the auto industry and society, both companies will bring their wide-ranging knowledge - starting with that concerning environmental technologies - to the table and make ever-better cars."
12-02-11, 11:12 AM
#26
Rookie
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Only cars with very low torque at low revs can get fuel economy numbers close to reality with the NEDC.
I think Lexus should not bother with diesel. After all the noise and vibrations of a diesel engine are fundamental contradiction to the attributes a premium vehicle should have.
Oh, and that 8 seconds 0-100 for the 320d ED just makes me laugh. My 2003 Lexus IS300 is rated at 8.2 s and guess what? It will totally destroy any 320d.
12-02-11, 11:36 AM
#27
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: CA
Posts: 2,010
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BMW fuel economy numbers in Europe is like what Hyundai does with EPA numbers - pure fiction. European Test Cycle (NEDC) is very easy to "beat" by selecting appropriate gear ratios because it consists of few constans speeds and few very slow acceleration/decelerations between them.
Only cars with very low torque at low revs can get fuel economy numbers close to reality with the NEDC.
I think Lexus should not bother with diesel. After all the noise and vibrations of a diesel engine are fundamental contradiction to the attributes a premium vehicle should have.
Oh, and that 8 seconds 0-100 for the 320d ED just makes me laugh. My 2003 Lexus IS300 is rated at 8.2 s and guess what? It will totally destroy any 320d.
Only cars with very low torque at low revs can get fuel economy numbers close to reality with the NEDC.
I think Lexus should not bother with diesel. After all the noise and vibrations of a diesel engine are fundamental contradiction to the attributes a premium vehicle should have.
Oh, and that 8 seconds 0-100 for the 320d ED just makes me laugh. My 2003 Lexus IS300 is rated at 8.2 s and guess what? It will totally destroy any 320d.
Also I don't know why you can be so sure that the 320d ED's 8-second 0-100km/h claim is false. Have you tested it yourself? With proper launches and shifting and on optimal track surface? Manufacturers' claimed performance data are all obtained by professional drivers under optimum conditions. They represent the best possible performances the cars can dish out. So even if you or someone you race against can't do 0-100km/h in 8 seconds in a 320d ED, someone else might just be able to.
Last edited by ydooby; 12-02-11 at 01:21 PM.
12-03-11, 12:41 PM
#28
Rookie
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What you say might be true for a test which is modelled after real-world trafic conditions. NEDC is not. It only measures the car efficiency under very light loads thus it doesnt translate very well into the real world.
An example - IS220d used to be rated 7.4 L/100km. Some real world data shows 7.38 L/100km average consumption.
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/uebers...09&powerunit=2
BMW 320d from the same period was rated 5.4 - 5.6 L/100km (xDrive vagon included) while some real world data shows 6.53 L/100km.
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/uebers...xactmodel=320d
See the difference?
As for 320d vs first gen IS300 - I had a buddy with 320d, non ED, the one rated at 7.5 sec 0-100, manual and despite his numerous efforts he never managed to beat me.
Finally, appologies for the generated offtopic.
An example - IS220d used to be rated 7.4 L/100km. Some real world data shows 7.38 L/100km average consumption.
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/uebers...09&powerunit=2
BMW 320d from the same period was rated 5.4 - 5.6 L/100km (xDrive vagon included) while some real world data shows 6.53 L/100km.
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/uebers...xactmodel=320d
See the difference?
As for 320d vs first gen IS300 - I had a buddy with 320d, non ED, the one rated at 7.5 sec 0-100, manual and despite his numerous efforts he never managed to beat me.
Finally, appologies for the generated offtopic.
12-03-11, 02:27 PM
#29
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for letting me know that the people buying a 320d care about raw performance. I used to think they'd go for an M3.
12-04-11, 06:10 AM
#30
The biggest problem the IS diesel has in Europe is that it's the only diesel available for the IS. You need more to compete with the Europeans and create appeal. The IS needs say two or three differently tuned 4-cylinder diesels and a top-of-the-line 6-cylinder diesel to act as a flagship diesel.
But more than that, the lack of an IS wagon means people don't even take a glance at Lexus.
My wife and I are considering buying a used W204 Mercedes C class diesel wagon because the trunk space is enormous (bigger than that of the A4 and 3er wagons). My wife will need this car for her photography business as she is buying more and more equipment for herself.
But more than that, the lack of an IS wagon means people don't even take a glance at Lexus.
My wife and I are considering buying a used W204 Mercedes C class diesel wagon because the trunk space is enormous (bigger than that of the A4 and 3er wagons). My wife will need this car for her photography business as she is buying more and more equipment for herself.
Problem in Europe is that IS itself is considerably smaller car than its competition when it comes to back space and trunk.
As you said, Europeans are looking for this segment as their family vehicle, unlike Americans where it is completely different.
So to raise sales of 2012/3 IS in Europe (to come late this year), they have to make it more spacious and offer smaller powerplants... CTh sells great right now in Europe, despite not having a diesel :-). Camry-Like powerplant and lighter but bigger IS would increase IS sales in Europe a lot. Even smaller version in between (with 2.0l engine for instance), but I doubt that it will happen due to limited appeal worldwide.
CTh has been great sucess and for luxury models i think with more hybrid options (you now that for Europeans, 300-340hp 450h is 100-150hp too much :P), and models designed for Europe and European taxing structure, Lexus can start doing well. I mean I just checked and CTh has managed to singlehandledly raise Lexus Holland sales by 500%, and now Lexus outsells Honda for instance. CTh is not cheap anywhere, and it is always starting at a lot more than base 1 series or A3, but obviously it sells.
Everywhere I look at European charts, sales are up between 80% and 500%, and thats despite waiting lists as they are still not readily available.