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Quick Spin: We try Honda's cutting-edge electric SH-AWD system

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Old 12-07-11, 08:53 PM
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Default Quick Spin: We try Honda's cutting-edge electric SH-AWD system

We try Honda's cutting-edge electric SH-AWD system


"How Honda Is Working To Get Its Groove Back"


For decades, Honda successfully cultivated a hard-earned reputation for technological innovation and thoughtful engineering, but the Japanese automaker has seemingly grown content to let other automakers lead the way with new technologies in recent years. To this point, Honda has stubbornly resisted the engine-downsizing movement, direct injection, as well as more sophisticated gearboxes and hybrids, instead focusing on refining existing technologies and relying on its lighter weight vehicles to keep their models' performance metrics in the hunt.

No more, says CEO Takanobu Ito. Honda has embarked on a multi-tier technology binge that Ito says will have Honda at the forefront of fuel economy metrics worldwide within three years. On the table? More advanced everything, from the aforementioned powertrain technologies including a new small-displacement diesel and a new CVT, to direct injection and a seven-speed dual-clutch transmission. Of course, we've seen similar products brought to market from other automakers already, so excellence in execution will need to be Honda's differentiator. But we tend to expect more innovative thinking from an automaker with such a rich history of elegant engineering, so we were pleased to learn that Soichiro's crew is hard at work on a hybrid evolution of the company's already trick Super Handling All-Wheel Drive serving in vehicles like the Acura TL, RDX and MDX.

In addition to the torque-vectoring rear axle already in production, Honda is incubating a new three-motor hybrid AWD architecture that it says will offer V8 power and a more nimble driving experience than typical all-wheel-drive systems, all while delivering four-cylinder fuel economy.

Just ahead of the Tokyo Motor Show, Honda bussed us to its Twin-Ring Motegi racetrack to sample its radical new SH-AWD system in an Accord mule.


Despite the plebeian bodywork of this evaluation model, make no mistake, hardware this costly will not debut in something with a Honda badge out front – it will be a technological linchpin for Acura's revival.

As shown here, this SH-AWD system relies on a direct-injected variant of Honda's 3.5-liter V6, tuned here to deliver 310 horsepower and 265 pound-feet of torque (for comparison's sake, the 3.5-liter six-cylinder in the 2012 Accord manages 271 hp and 254 lb-ft). Internal combustion is joined under the hood by a single 40-hp, 96-lb-ft electric motor mated directly to a Honda-developed seven-speed dual-clutch gearbox. Out back, a pair of 27-horsepower, 52-lb-ft electric motors power the rear wheels, providing through-the-road all-wheel drive (read: there's no mechanical connection between the front and rear wheels). By independently controlling the two motors, either positive or negative torque can be applied to an individual rear wheel, providing torque vectoring in corners while funneling power back into the lithium-ion battery. Because the system can simultaneously flow positive torque to the outside wheel and negative torque to the inside wheel in a corner, significantly improved cornering over Honda's current mechanical SH-AWD setup is possible.




The larger front-mounted motor can also drive the car independently during low-speed maneuvers when the engine is shut off by the start-stop system, as you might want while inching through rush-hour traffic or pulling away from a stoplight. Honda says the car can reach 25 mph running solely on electrons, but as this is a mule, all performance parameters remain subject to change.

So how well does it all work? Our time behind the wheel was extremely brief, consisting of little more than one lap of a handling course. Thus, we'll have to withhold judgment, but we will say that the system shows genuine promise. Whirring away from the pits under electric power and having the V6 seamlessly come to life was an encouraging start, but we didn't really get a feel for the SH-AWD until we started negotiating the corners and slalom. While carving through the orange pylons, the sedan felt significantly – and predictably – nimbler than a standard front-drive Accord, displaying genuine eagerness to change direction. In fact, with such brief exposure, it initially felt like the Honda's tail was drifting out a bit, so willing was its rump to rotate. Thankfully, the liveliness was wholly under control, with no drama or tire squealing, just quicker-than-expected turn-in and faithful tracking. While certainly swift, claims of V8 acceleration feel a bit inflated, but given excellent traction and further tuning, such assertions seem possible.


We'd love to give you the full report on how well the Honda's new dual-clutch gearbox works, how heavy the system is, and how fuel efficient the car is out in the real world, but we'll need more wheel time in a production car to do so, and for the moment, officials remain tight-lipped on when this technology will debut. Regardless, it's encouraging to see Honda pushing to regain its powertrain innovation reputation... and to see it investing in Acura.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/07/w...sh-awd-system/
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Old 12-07-11, 09:44 PM
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This is actually pretty damn neat. Rather than letting the inside wheel do nothing, it's generating power for the outer wheel.


The original SH-AWD was good, but the engines mated to the system was rather mediocre. Hopefully they don't make the same mistake this time around.
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Old 12-08-11, 02:06 AM
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Hahahaha, I think Honda was waiting for Mike to stop being a moderator, and now they are on a roll!
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Old 12-08-11, 05:22 AM
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How does the powertrain and programming differ from what is used in the RX450h?
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Old 12-08-11, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Och
Hahahaha, I think Honda was waiting for Mike to stop being a moderator, and now they are on a roll!
How is this a roll? Something that isn't made yet that will be covered in an exterior that looks like one of Shockwave's hemroids?

The tech sounds fantastic, but its for AWD only. Most of us don't need nor want AWD. It adds weight and complexity. Acura has SH-AWD now, it was the best system in 2005/2006 and even today its arguably the best and no one cares. Hardly anyone tracks new Acura's, people that buy SH AWD SUVs go to Wal-Mart just like RX owners. OMG I took that corner at Home Depot 2 mph faster!

FYI, Benz wil roll this out with the electric SLS...


Seeing this tech covered in a USDM Honda Accord is all I need to know they still haven't learned ****.

.
 
Old 12-08-11, 09:56 AM
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Wow...negative torque on the inside wheel...just brilliant. This is real innovation. Hopefully this tech will apply to some RWD hybrids in the future as well.

EDIT: Actually this tech is only possible on AWD hybrids because the instant negative torque is only possible with an electric motor. Well it's possible to apply this to a pure electric RWD cars too but I don't believe the days of electric cars are here yet.

Last edited by ydooby; 12-08-11 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 12-08-11, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
How is this a roll? Something that isn't made yet that will be covered in an exterior that looks like one of Shockwave's hemroids?

The tech sounds fantastic, but its for AWD only. Most of us don't need nor want AWD. It adds weight and complexity. Acura has SH-AWD now, it was the best system in 2005/2006 and even today its arguably the best and no one cares. Hardly anyone tracks new Acura's, people that buy SH AWD SUVs go to Wal-Mart just like RX owners. OMG I took that corner at Home Depot 2 mph faster!

FYI, Benz wil roll this out with the electric SLS...


Seeing this tech covered in a USDM Honda Accord is all I need to know they still haven't learned ****.

.

I don't always agree with you, but I vote "Shockwave's hemroids" for ClubLexus line of the year!
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Old 12-08-11, 10:22 AM
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I'm a strong supporter of the SH-AWD system (since day one) and I believe that this is one of the best things that the Honda Automobile Division has done in ages.

Heck, it was imho the best thing that defined the KB2. The KB2 may probably the only four-door vehicle in the group that is 100% SH-AWD only.





The first-gen SH-AWD was already a brilliant piece of technological engineering in the context of torque-vectoring AWD systems. Now with a newer-generation product, such awesomeness can only go nowhere but up.

Props to Honda on this one for improving an already fantastic piece of drivetrain technology even further
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Old 12-08-11, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Hardly anyone tracks new Acura's
This reminds me of when the 2009 TL SH-AWD was introduced. Acura held a press and track day where they pitted a G35, G35x, 335i, 335ix, and an S4 against the TL SH-AWD. Suffice to say, it owned all 5 of the aforementioned models on the track. An impressive feat to say the least
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Old 12-08-11, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
How is this a roll? Something that isn't made yet that will be covered in an exterior that looks like one of Shockwave's hemroids?

The tech sounds fantastic, but its for AWD only. Most of us don't need nor want AWD. It adds weight and complexity. Acura has SH-AWD now, it was the best system in 2005/2006 and even today its arguably the best and no one cares. Hardly anyone tracks new Acura's, people that buy SH AWD SUVs go to Wal-Mart just like RX owners. OMG I took that corner at Home Depot 2 mph faster!

FYI, Benz wil roll this out with the electric SLS...


Seeing this tech covered in a USDM Honda Accord is all I need to know they still haven't learned ****.

.
It remains to be seen whether this is all talk, or whether this time Honda is serious and will come through with their intentions. They have made a ton of new in the last couple weeks, and they better make it happen if they want to stay credible. For some reason, I think this time they actually won't disappoint... we'll see.

As far as this AWD tech, this is simply the future. People don't care about this tech when its mated to a crappy, underpowered car, but when its put into a car where the rest of components are also as good, it becomes incredible. Just watch Clarkson's latest DVD, where the GTR (same tech as sh-awd) takes the same curve nearly 10mph faster than cars costing 4x as much.
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Old 12-08-11, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
How is this a roll? Something that isn't made yet that will be covered in an exterior that looks like one of Shockwave's hemroids?
I'm a Transformers G1 fanboy and I resent that remark

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Old 12-08-11, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by AutoUnion
It also had better tires than the rest of the cars. Not to mention, it is an Acura-sponsored event, therefore it has to be best. I've been to BMW events where you drive the competition. I remember driving a C300 4MATIC and it was one POS on the course. I then drove one at the dealer and it was better.
Unless you have credible proof Acura threw in a ringer or did something to the other cars to make them not perform as well then you are just throwing out baseless assumptions.

I have not read any articles later saying the 6 speed TL does not feel as quick or handle as well as it did in the test or the competitors cars felt different. If you are going to say Acura does that then you might as well say all competitors due that including Lexus at their driving events. The testers are experienced auto journalists and would have noted the competition what they are familiar with had poor tires or felt "detuned" which is not easy to do. I am sure they equipped the other cars with tires that come standard and did not use some off the wall poor performing tire just to get desired results. Acura has nothing to gain by showing how well their model performs at a sponsored event only for it to due poorer in later tests and real world test drives because they did something to it to enhance performance and degrease the competitions performance. They are going to get caught and it will do more damage then good for them.

The TL is a very impressive car when it comes to handling and it can easily compete with and beat RWD competition with more power, that has been demonstrated before in a filmed track race with an a older TL type S beating rwd cars that were lighter with more hp. There was a more recent comparison test at a track with the new 6 speed TL against an Audi S4 where it performed just as well despite the Audi being smaller, costing 16K more, and having more performance credibility. In a straight line TLs may not be as quick as some of its competition but they make up for it in the handling department.
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Old 12-08-11, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by AutoUnion
It also had better tires than the rest of the cars. Not to mention, it is an Acura-sponsored event, therefore it has to be best. I've been to BMW events where you drive the competition. I remember driving a C300 4MATIC and it was one POS on the course. I then drove one at the dealer and it was better.
Here we go!

2010 Acura TL SH-AWD Manual - First Drive Review
Adding a manual transmission makes the robotic TL more human.

When designing the manual transmission for the 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD, engineers actually measured the shift stroke of its competitive cars. Obviously—why else would Acura tell us this?—the TL has the shortest throw in its class at 3.5 inches. Engineers also measured clutch pedal engagement and disengagement effort. We’re fans of short-throw shifters and smooth clutch pedals, but going so far as to quantify those normally subjective qualities is something we don’t see very often. We’re not about to complain, though, given Honda/Acura’s reputation for slick-shifting manuals. Take a test drive of an Acura TSX or a Honda Civic Si or S2000 if you doubt us.

In case you’re not familiar with the new TL, we’ll bring you up to speed. For 2009, the TL is all-new, and it looks like the giant shovel that hit the front end was left where the grille should be. If that sounds harsh, we’ll apologize by saying that at least the newest Acura face looks better on the TL than the TSX or RL. The TL now comes in front- and all-wheel-drive versions, the latter known as SH-AWD. The standard TL gets a 280-hp, 3.5-liter V-6, similar to the previous TL Type-S. SH-AWD versions get a power and displacement bump to 305 horsepower and 3.7 liters, and have the added availability of 19-inch wheels shod with Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 tires. Both 2009 versions come standard with a five-speed automatic transmission.

And Then Acura Created Manual

The lack of a manual transmission will be remedied for the 2010 model year when the six-speed comes out around November of 2009. Acura says the price will be the same as that of the automatic TL SH-AWD with the technology package, and EPA fuel economy will be the same at 17 mpg city and 25 highway. The goal of the stick shift is two-part: to keep former self-shifting TL Type-S owners happy, and to get some conquest purchases from enthusiasts who might have discounted the TL’s front-wheel-drive setup and slushbox as not sporty enough.

Still, the goals of the six-speed TL are modest. Of the projected annual TL volume of 70,000 units, Acura only predicts five percent—or 3500—will be the TL SH-AWD with the manual transmission. Weight in the manual car is reduced by 88 pounds, so the front springs, shocks, and power steering have been retuned for the weight reduction. In addition, the front driveshafts and engine and transmission mounts have been beefed up. The basic gearbox is the same as the six-speed from the old TL Type-S, but almost every component is improved for a higher torque capacity. Thanks to the reduced weight and the ability to do clutch-abusing high-rpm launches, Acura says the 0-to-60-mph time should improve by 0.7 second over the auto-equipped cars, which would put the manual in the mid- to high-five-second range..

We got a sneak peak of the six-speed TL at the Transportation Research Center in central Ohio, Acura/Honda’s de facto North American proving grounds. Eager to prove that the TL is all that and a bag of chips, they brought out a BMW 335i and 335xi, Infiniti G35, and Audi S4 to compare as we lapped around the Dynamic Handling Course, a twisting track circuit penned by Allen Wilson, designer of Miller Motorsports Park and Barber Motorsports Park. All five cars, including the TL, were fitted with sport packages and the most aggressive summer tires available from the factory.

Although our driving impression is limited to the track, a few things are readily apparent in the TL six-speed. First: all that measuring was worth it. The clutch pedal is as smooth and progressive as any car we’ve driven, in stark contrast to the spasmodic pedal in the Infiniti G35 (although Infiniti has made improvements with the G37). The same goes for the shift lever, which continues in the Honda/Acura tradition. Shifting in the TL is so easy that it requires almost no attention, leaving your focus on the road ahead. Another revelation was that the BMWs, both equipped with optional active steering, have less than satisfactory steering feel. Perhaps Acura is using those cars for their benchmark, because the TL’s electric power steering has better weight but is notable for its distinct lack of communication with the driver.

Compared to the TL, the BMW is still the benchmark for balanced handling. At almost every point on the track, either 3-series is perfectly neutral and very responsive to driver inputs. But—surprise, surprise—the TL is quicker around the track than any of the other cars. That’s by Acura’s timing of both its own test driver and of every journalist present at this press event. Given the unfamiliarity with the track and our aversion to crashing, we weren’t driving as hard as Acura’s hot shoe, but the results back up our impression.

So how does the Acura beat the more balanced BMWs, the more powerful S4, and the better power-to-weight ratio of the G35? For starters, this is honestly a good chassis, and the Michelin tires lend plenty of grip. Also the rear-wheel torque vectoring of the SH-AWD system does an excellent job of mitigating the TL’s inherent understeer, so you can enter a corner faster without worrying about pushing wide, and you can hit the gas sooner on exit. It doesn’t feel as natural as the balance of the BMW, but there’s a lot of thrill in knowing you’re going faster.

So is the TL SH-AWD six-speed going to win over any BMW loyalists? We doubt it, but it won’t take many to fill up Acura’s order quota. Anyone looking at a G37x should take a look at this TL as well. Even Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution and Subaru Impreza WRX STI shoppers willing to give up some speed for extra (read: any) luxury might be interested. The standard attributes and deficiencies of the TL are still here—plenty of technology and a good interior, but questionable styling, numb steering, and button overload—but those willing to give the six-speed a test drive next year should be impressed, if not completely swayed

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t_drive_review
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Old 12-08-11, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Och
It remains to be seen whether this is all talk, or whether this time Honda is serious and will come through with their intentions. They have made a ton of new in the last couple weeks, and they better make it happen if they want to stay credible. For some reason, I think this time they actually won't disappoint... we'll see.

As far as this AWD tech, this is simply the future. People don't care about this tech when its mated to a crappy, underpowered car, but when its put into a car where the rest of components are also as good, it becomes incredible. Just watch Clarkson's latest DVD, where the GTR (same tech as sh-awd) takes the same curve nearly 10mph faster than cars costing 4x as much.
Honda/Acura= . Talk. I'm happy they finally have a hybrid nearly 10 years after Lexus at this point. This technology sounds great. Do you realize Acura's new 3.5 V-6 makes a whopping 4hp more than the old Lexus unit?

Again whats the point? Acura has lost most all their enthusiasts. Manual sales are 5% of sales and NO ONE tracks them. Its a moot point. Its great its offered but Acura has shot themselves too much for people to care.

Originally Posted by UDel
Unless you have credible proof Acura threw in a ringer or did something to the other cars to make them not perform as well then you are just throwing out baseless assumptions.

I have not read any articles later saying the 6 speed TL does not feel as quick or handle as well as it did in the test or the competitors cars felt different. If you are going to say Acura does that then you might as well say all competitors due that including Lexus at their driving events. The testers are experienced auto journalists and would have noted the competition what they are familiar with had poor tires or felt "detuned" which is not easy to do. I am sure they equipped the other cars with tires that come standard and did not use some off the wall poor performing tire just to get desired results. Acura has nothing to gain by showing how well their model performs at a sponsored event only for it to due poorer in later tests and real world test drives because they did something to it to enhance performance and degrease the competitions performance. They are going to get caught and it will do more damage then good for them.

The TL is a very impressive car when it comes to handling and it can easily compete with and beat RWD competition with more power, that has been demonstrated before in a filmed track race with an a older TL type S beating rwd cars that were lighter with more hp. There was a more recent comparison test at a track with the new 6 speed TL against an Audi S4 where it performed just as well despite the Audi being smaller, costing 16K more, and having more performance credibility. In a straight line TLs may not be as quick as some of its competition but they make up for it in the handling department.
No one cares. Sales suck complete ***, down 50% compared to the previous version and their sales goals. No one cares about SH-AWD, the cars are NOT tracked or anything. Its a technology that Porsche and BMW uses correctly as they offer cars with substantial power to take advantage. The TL has hardly any aftermarket support, it simply is not tuned for enthusiasts no matter what advertising says. 85% are FWD models and the TL is mainly ES competition.

The test was complete bull****, they used all the old models of the car and the TL of course beat the them on Honda's track with cars Honda brought. Its like a stripper telling us all she's a virgin and we are to believer her. But some fanbois have the mental capacity of a grapefruit so I guess Honda knows their market.

We all know SH-AWD is a great feature, even if it sounds OEM rice. Acura blew it packaging it in SUVs, ugly cars and vehicles still stuck in 1998 with 300hp.
 
Old 12-08-11, 10:35 PM
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If you build it, they will come. There is no denying that current state of Acura is just pathetic - they don't have a single competitive product besides the TL, and Honda is also slipping hard. Yet they have a very good chance to bounce back - just look at GM, Ford, and even Chrysler - just a measly five years ago they weren't building anything besides vomit inducing garbage, and now they actually have a number of impressive vehicles.
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