New Toyota Camry Excels in Consumer Reports’ Tests, VW Passat Not So Much
12-31-11, 08:47 AM
#16
Lexus Fanatic
Take the new Buick Verano, for instance....an all-new FWD compact I am VERY impressed with. It's getting some glowing reports from press-reviews (notwithstanding its few admitted faults), and I myself was virtually enamored with it in a static, showroom-review. But, nevertheless, I still have some misgivings about GM reliability (though Buick, in that department, has not been as bad as some of the other GM brands). I wouldn't buy one of the brand-new ones in the first couple of months of production.
Altima wishes it was as mediocre as the Camry
12-31-11, 08:49 AM
#17
Lexus Fanatic
12-31-11, 09:08 AM
#18
No, I disagree. Paul (bitkahuna) is correct. It DOESN'T make sense. The new Camry is substantially different from the old one, in many ways. CR itself, several years ago, said they would stop giving automatic recommendations to new or redesigned models based on past reliability.
they said they will stop giving recommendations automatically for all of the same brand models, but rather focus on car itself... meaning old Camry V6 got more complaints, hence new one is not automatically recommended.
there is no other way, and actually CR has really good history with recommendations.
I think CR has very very good way of rating cars overall, that really does apply to general public a lot more than other magazines like Motortrend and Car and Driver.
However that doesnt mean that we should all drive same cars and that all of us should have same priorities when buying cars.
As to the sound comment, it was overstressed in the carscoop article, actual CR article (i watched video), said slightly worse interior noise.
12-31-11, 09:23 AM
#19
Lexus Fanatic
no they did not... there is no other way to give reliability recommendations for new cars.
they said they will stop giving recommendations automatically for all of the same brand models, but rather focus on car itself... meaning old Camry V6 got more complaints, hence new one is not automatically recommended.
there is no other way, and actually CR has really good history with recommendations.
I think CR has very very good way of rating cars overall, that really does apply to general public a lot more than other magazines like Motortrend and Car and Driver.
they said they will stop giving recommendations automatically for all of the same brand models, but rather focus on car itself... meaning old Camry V6 got more complaints, hence new one is not automatically recommended.
there is no other way, and actually CR has really good history with recommendations.
I think CR has very very good way of rating cars overall, that really does apply to general public a lot more than other magazines like Motortrend and Car and Driver.
12-31-11, 10:37 AM
#20
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: NYC/ATL
Posts: 2,618
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
12-31-11, 10:44 AM
#21
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: CA
Posts: 2,010
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well being popular doesn't automatically make mediocre does it? It just means it excels at what its target demographics ask for.
12-31-11, 02:02 PM
#22
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
didn't see anyone rip it. the new camry is ugly but it's still seems like a good step up from the last one. 
except when it isn't, like:
but those issues were mostly completely overblown, and with gasoline thrown on the fire by govt to help bankrupt gm come back.
thank you my friend! CR's "ratings" based on consumers' feedback are useful, although the sample set is obviously tiny for MANY models (how many rolls royce owners read CR and get polled? 
). but making recommendations for new models based on old, mechanically, electronically, physically vastly different vehicles is ludicrous.
because CR isn't objective on some things. can't blame them for having a soft spot for toyota, which has made the best overall quality vehicles for over a decade. to quote a politician: they're entitled to their own opinions, but they're not entitled to their own facts.
agreed, and i would say it's likely to be highly reliable, but that remains to be seen.
exactly, which is why they shouldn't without a huge caveat/disclaimer.
Historically past Toyota quality has been an accurate indicator of the new models
... recent quality issues.
Totally agree, Paul. And, if you remember several years ago, that is EXACTLY what got CR in trouble with the 2006-redesign of the Camry, and its transmission problems. They recommended it based on the generally good reliability of previous models.....and the 2006 model just didn't stack up.
They said that they would stop doing that (recommending new or redesigned models based on reliability of past ones).
They said that they would stop doing that (recommending new or redesigned models based on reliability of past ones).
). but making recommendations for new models based on old, mechanically, electronically, physically vastly different vehicles is ludicrous.
Perhaps, with the Passat, CR is sticking to it no-recommendation policy without an established reliability record. Why it may not with the Camry is anybody's guess.....especially after the 2006 debacle.
In all fairness, however, the new 2012 Camry DOES seem to be better-built, overall, than the 2006 model, though it admittedly lacks some door and sheet-metal solidness.
No, I disagree. Paul (bitkahuna) is correct. It DOESN'T make sense. The new Camry is substantially different from the old one, in many ways. CR itself, several years ago, said they would stop giving automatic recommendations to new or redesigned models based on past reliability.
exactly, which is why they shouldn't without a huge caveat/disclaimer.
12-31-11, 02:03 PM
#23
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
on a related note, i saw a new white camry LE (that's the base or near base model, right?). i haven't seen washing machines with less exterior styling.
12-31-11, 10:41 PM
#24
Lexus Test Driver
The TDI's 51mpg highway is quite amazing for a midsize sedan though.The TDI gets 30 in the city and 40 on the highway. CR's "51" is one of those fantasy numbers that's written in fine print on the sticker for optimal conditions that no one ever achieves. CR is the ONLY auto publication to use these unrealistic measuring methods, confusing and misleading readers since the beginning. Do no take their mileage numbers at face value. If you do, you'll have to say the Passat TDI gets 20 mpg's on the highway, because that's the other end of the spectrum, which suddenly brings reality back in.
The EPA averages on the sticker is what 99% of what people go by, and that's 30/40 for the Passat TDI. Good numbers for a diesel, but the Toyota hybrid numbers are better.
01-01-12, 02:47 AM
#25
didn't see anyone rip it. the new camry is ugly but it's still seems like a good step up from the last one.
except when it isn't, like:
but those issues were mostly completely overblown, and with gasoline thrown on the fire by govt to help bankrupt gm come back.
thank you my friend! CR's "ratings" based on consumers' feedback are useful, although the sample set is obviously tiny for MANY models (how many rolls royce owners read CR and get polled?). but making recommendations for new models based on old, mechanically, electronically, physically vastly different vehicles is ludicrous.
because CR isn't objective on some things. can't blame them for having a soft spot for toyota, which has made the best overall quality vehicles for over a decade. to quote a politician: they're entitled to their own opinions, but they're not entitled to their own facts.
agreed, and i would say it's likely to be highly reliable, but that remains to be seen.
exactly, which is why they shouldn't without a huge caveat/disclaimer.
except when it isn't, like:
but those issues were mostly completely overblown, and with gasoline thrown on the fire by govt to help bankrupt gm come back.
thank you my friend! CR's "ratings" based on consumers' feedback are useful, although the sample set is obviously tiny for MANY models (how many rolls royce owners read CR and get polled?
). but making recommendations for new models based on old, mechanically, electronically, physically vastly different vehicles is ludicrous.because CR isn't objective on some things. can't blame them for having a soft spot for toyota, which has made the best overall quality vehicles for over a decade. to quote a politician: they're entitled to their own opinions, but they're not entitled to their own facts.
agreed, and i would say it's likely to be highly reliable, but that remains to be seen.
exactly, which is why they shouldn't without a huge caveat/disclaimer.
You problem with it is that you would like TDI to be rated better... well sorry. Doesnt mean CR is wrong.
:-)
01-01-12, 12:19 PM
#26
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: CA
Posts: 2,010
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is directed to everyone:
The TDI gets 30 in the city and 40 on the highway. CR's "51" is one of those fantasy numbers that's written in fine print on the sticker for optimal conditions that no one ever achieves. CR is the ONLY auto publication to use these unrealistic measuring methods, confusing and misleading readers since the beginning. Do no take their mileage numbers at face value. If you do, you'll have to say the Passat TDI gets 20 mpg's on the highway, because that's the other end of the spectrum, which suddenly brings reality back in.
The EPA averages on the sticker is what 99% of what people go by, and that's 30/40 for the Passat TDI. Good numbers for a diesel, but the Toyota hybrid numbers are better.
The TDI gets 30 in the city and 40 on the highway. CR's "51" is one of those fantasy numbers that's written in fine print on the sticker for optimal conditions that no one ever achieves. CR is the ONLY auto publication to use these unrealistic measuring methods, confusing and misleading readers since the beginning. Do no take their mileage numbers at face value. If you do, you'll have to say the Passat TDI gets 20 mpg's on the highway, because that's the other end of the spectrum, which suddenly brings reality back in.
The EPA averages on the sticker is what 99% of what people go by, and that's 30/40 for the Passat TDI. Good numbers for a diesel, but the Toyota hybrid numbers are better.
If they're from real-world driving then they're "real", but then of course everyone's mileage varies because everyone's "real world" is different.
If they're from dyno testings then they're fantasy numbers like you said, but no more so than the EPA numbers, although the EPA numbers, after the latest revision, have gotten quite close to real-world averages with its artificially applied constant factors to the dyno test numbers.
Last edited by ydooby; 01-01-12 at 12:28 PM.
01-01-12, 12:26 PM
#27
Lexus Champion
Do you know if CR obtains its fuel economy figures from real-world driving like most magazines, or from a pre-programmed dyno testing like EPA?
If they're from real-world driving then they're "real", but of course everyone's mileage varies.
If they're from dyno testings then they're fantasy numbers like you said, but no more so than the EPA numbers, although the EPA numbers have gotten quite close to real-world averages with its artificially applied constant factors to the actual test numbers.
If they're from real-world driving then they're "real", but of course everyone's mileage varies.
If they're from dyno testings then they're fantasy numbers like you said, but no more so than the EPA numbers, although the EPA numbers have gotten quite close to real-world averages with its artificially applied constant factors to the actual test numbers.
01-01-12, 12:31 PM
#28
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: CA
Posts: 2,010
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, but my question is whether the "51mpg highway" figure of the TDI was obtained from a road test or a dyno test. From the sounds of it it seems that it's obtained from a road test, in which case there's nothing "fantasy" about it, as long as they test all the cars in the same way, although there will then be other variables such as the varying weather, road conditions, traffic and driver inputs.
Last edited by ydooby; 01-01-12 at 12:35 PM.
01-01-12, 01:22 PM
#29
Lexus Champion
Yeah, but my question is whether the "51mpg highway" figure of the TDI was obtained from a road test or a dyno test. From the sounds of it it seems that it's obtained from a road test, in which case there's nothing "fantasy" about it, as long as they test all the cars in the same way, although there will then be other variables such as the varying weather, road conditions, traffic and driver inputs.
In their road test the TDI got 37 mpg overall and the hybrid got 38 mpg.
01-01-12, 01:34 PM
#30
Lexus Test Driver
Here's what makes no sense about CR's EPA numbers. They take the low and high end of what people may obtain a few times per ownership and use that as their core numbers. This is so far-fetched and useless. That's why the EPA puts the average number on window stickers, because the average is what the majority of buyers obtain. CR's number ratings may ring true for perhaps 5-10% of the driving population. Useless.