Motortrend sport sedans comparo: Lexus GS Dominates
04-11-12, 05:32 PM
#91
the only thing holding us back trading in our Acura TL for a GS350 f-sport is i'm kind of worry about the lifetime of the existing motor. i don't think this generation GS will use the same 3.5 V6 throughout its model cycle. remember the current 3.5 motor debuted back in 2006 as the 2007 model GS350. i have a hunch Lexus gonna upgrade to a newer better V6 midway through the GS cycle.
04-11-12, 08:16 PM
#92
Lexus Champion
I think if Lexus was German, that fact alone (and no other changes) would propel it to be seen as among the makers of the finest cars in the world. Just imagine for a second that the stylized L represented a German brand.
04-12-12, 04:50 AM
#93
First off the reason for this is the F10 gained 400lbs of luxury over its E60 predecessor. Secondly an I6 is smoother than a V6
The 4.4L TT V8 from BMW puts out 400hp and 450lbft. The Ford 5.0L V8 is rated at 420hp and 390lbft. The difference is in the torque. The Boss puts out 444hp and a higher redline but 10 less lbft. The amazing thing is that the 5.0 does NOT have direct injection. So plenty of power to be had. That all said the Lexus 5.0 has a tunable range from both stock base 416hp 371lbft all the way up to the LS TMG edition running the ring with 641hp (albeit supercharged)
The 4.4L TT V8 from BMW puts out 400hp and 450lbft. The Ford 5.0L V8 is rated at 420hp and 390lbft. The difference is in the torque. The Boss puts out 444hp and a higher redline but 10 less lbft. The amazing thing is that the 5.0 does NOT have direct injection. So plenty of power to be had. That all said the Lexus 5.0 has a tunable range from both stock base 416hp 371lbft all the way up to the LS TMG edition running the ring with 641hp (albeit supercharged)
I6s ARE smoother than a V6, usually... Lexus has been WELL KNOWN for YEARS for having extremely smooth engines (the best in class). Go watch an old LS400 commercial, that 1uz motor was as smooth at idle as the 2jz was.
If you really believe the 550i only makes 400hp (like the 335i only made 300hp), then I think you're putting too much stock into bench racing. The 550i from what I saw will be pushing the same trap speeds as the base 5.0 Mustang, and the 550i weighs A LOT more. Yeah, I just double-checked: C&D test. 4300lbs, "400hp", and 109mph traps.
And yes, that was my point about the Coyote motor, it's in a cheap car and makes awesome power (more than 420 from my sources, and a simple ECU tune will put out Boss 302 numbers, a friend of mine was running 115mph traps with a ECU and other basic boltons)
The Lexus 5.0 is NOT tunable compared to the rest of the cars in its class. Show me the tuners out there that can program the ECU. Adding an aftermarket supercharger and only making 641hp isn't all that impressive these days. I'll bet you'll see new M3s knocking over 600hp with bolt-ons and a tune, same goes for the M5.
Last edited by Bean; 04-12-12 at 05:02 AM.
04-12-12, 04:54 AM
#94
I think Lexus should seriously set the bar here, they've proven they can make a car handle well, but their engine tech is behind everyone else (except Infiniti of course - who is catatonic along with Acura)
Last edited by Bean; 04-12-12 at 05:05 AM.
04-12-12, 05:07 AM
#96
Is that what this is all about? Winning a magazine test? It's still a pretty slow car, and while it handles great, in daily driving, power is also important. I'd hate to be out-accelerated by a base model Mustang V6 (because that's what would happen) as boring as they are. Also... manual transmission option? Or at least the IS-F transmision? (This criticism is leveled at the other manufacturers too - these are supposed to be sport sedans!)
04-12-12, 06:09 AM
#97
Is that what this is all about? Winning a magazine test? It's still a pretty slow car, and while it handles great, in daily driving, power is also important. I'd hate to be out-accelerated by a base model Mustang V6 (because that's what would happen) as boring as they are. Also... manual transmission option? Or at least the IS-F transmision? (This criticism is leveled at the other manufacturers too - these are supposed to be sport sedans!)
I think Lexus should seriously set the bar here, they've proven they can make a car handle well, but their engine tech is behind everyone else (except Infiniti of course - who is catatonic along with Acura)
I think Lexus should seriously set the bar here, they've proven they can make a car handle well, but their engine tech is behind everyone else (except Infiniti of course - who is catatonic along with Acura)
04-12-12, 06:11 AM
#98
Pole Position
Slow car? But the GS350 F-sport has the same 0-60 time as the 535i and better 1/4 time and has a higher trap speed.And most importantly, BETTER PASSING TIMES, which is important for overtaking and real world road manouevers.
That's embarrassing for BMW on 2 counts.
1) Even with the newest turbocharged engine and spanking new 8-speed auto, it still can't outrun an "old" engine/drivetrain combination(the 2GR-FSE in the GS350 engine has been around since 2005 and the Lexus 6 speed is a carryover from the 3rd Gen)
2) It shows how seriously overweight BMWs specifically the 5 series, have become. That completely betrays the purpose of BMW, which has always been about "the ultimate driving machine" and the hallmark of the 5 series, which has always been about the optimum balance of sport and luxury.
Just how sporty can a shrunken 7 series be?(which is essentially what the F10 5 series is). 400 POUNDS--that's how much weight the 5 series gained--there's no way all the high tech wizardry in the world can conceal that extra mass during spirited driving.
It's not Lexus that has to step up their game, it's BMW that was caught napping and has to scramble now to regain its sporty credentials.
Like I said before, Mercedes can coast on being fast furniture, Audi has the gimmick of AWD but BMW was defined as the best ride and handling combo - IMO it has lost that "BMW"ness with the new 5 series.
That's embarrassing for BMW on 2 counts.
1) Even with the newest turbocharged engine and spanking new 8-speed auto, it still can't outrun an "old" engine/drivetrain combination(the 2GR-FSE in the GS350 engine has been around since 2005 and the Lexus 6 speed is a carryover from the 3rd Gen)
2) It shows how seriously overweight BMWs specifically the 5 series, have become. That completely betrays the purpose of BMW, which has always been about "the ultimate driving machine" and the hallmark of the 5 series, which has always been about the optimum balance of sport and luxury.
Just how sporty can a shrunken 7 series be?(which is essentially what the F10 5 series is). 400 POUNDS--that's how much weight the 5 series gained--there's no way all the high tech wizardry in the world can conceal that extra mass during spirited driving.
It's not Lexus that has to step up their game, it's BMW that was caught napping and has to scramble now to regain its sporty credentials.
Like I said before, Mercedes can coast on being fast furniture, Audi has the gimmick of AWD but BMW was defined as the best ride and handling combo - IMO it has lost that "BMW"ness with the new 5 series.
Last edited by natnut; 04-12-12 at 06:26 AM.
04-12-12, 06:28 AM
#100
Slow car? But the GS350 F-sport has the same 0-60 time as the 535i and better 1/4 time and has a higher trap speed.And most importantly, BETTER PASSING TIMES, which is important for overtaking and real world road manouevers.
That's embarrassing for BMW on 2 counts.
1) Even with the newest turbocharged engine and spanking new 8-speed auto, it still can't outrun an "old" engine/drivetrain combination(the 2GR-FSE in the GS350 engine has been around since 2005 and the Lexus 6 speed is a carryover from the 3rd Gen)
2) It shows how seriously overweight BMWs specifically the 5 series, have become. That completely betrays the purpose of BMW, which has always been about "the ultimate driving machine" and the hallmark of the 5 series, which has always been about the optimum balance of sport and luxury.
Just how sporty can a shrunken 7 series be?(which is essentially what the F10 5 series is). 400 POUNDS--that's how much weight the 5 series gained--there's no way all the high tech wizardry in the world can conceal that extra mass during spirited driving.
It's not Lexus that has to step up their game, it's BMW that was caught napping and has to scramble now to regain its sporty credentials.
Like I said before, Mercedes can coast on being fast furniture, Audi has the gimmick of AWD but BMW was defined as the best ride and handling combo - IMO it has lost that "BMW"ness with the new 5 series.
That's embarrassing for BMW on 2 counts.
1) Even with the newest turbocharged engine and spanking new 8-speed auto, it still can't outrun an "old" engine/drivetrain combination(the 2GR-FSE in the GS350 engine has been around since 2005 and the Lexus 6 speed is a carryover from the 3rd Gen)
2) It shows how seriously overweight BMWs specifically the 5 series, have become. That completely betrays the purpose of BMW, which has always been about "the ultimate driving machine" and the hallmark of the 5 series, which has always been about the optimum balance of sport and luxury.
Just how sporty can a shrunken 7 series be?(which is essentially what the F10 5 series is). 400 POUNDS--that's how much weight the 5 series gained--there's no way all the high tech wizardry in the world can conceal that extra mass during spirited driving.
It's not Lexus that has to step up their game, it's BMW that was caught napping and has to scramble now to regain its sporty credentials.
Like I said before, Mercedes can coast on being fast furniture, Audi has the gimmick of AWD but BMW was defined as the best ride and handling combo - IMO it has lost that "BMW"ness with the new 5 series.
04-12-12, 09:54 AM
#101
Guest
Posts: n/a
Slow car? But the GS350 F-sport has the same 0-60 time as the 535i and better 1/4 time and has a higher trap speed.And most importantly, BETTER PASSING TIMES, which is important for overtaking and real world road manouevers.
That's embarrassing for BMW on 2 counts.
1) Even with the newest turbocharged engine and spanking new 8-speed auto, it still can't outrun an "old" engine/drivetrain combination(the 2GR-FSE in the GS350 engine has been around since 2005 and the Lexus 6 speed is a carryover from the 3rd Gen)
2) It shows how seriously overweight BMWs specifically the 5 series, have become. That completely betrays the purpose of BMW, which has always been about "the ultimate driving machine" and the hallmark of the 5 series, which has always been about the optimum balance of sport and luxury.
Just how sporty can a shrunken 7 series be?(which is essentially what the F10 5 series is). 400 POUNDS--that's how much weight the 5 series gained--there's no way all the high tech wizardry in the world can conceal that extra mass during spirited driving.
It's not Lexus that has to step up their game, it's BMW that was caught napping and has to scramble now to regain its sporty credentials.
Like I said before, Mercedes can coast on being fast furniture, Audi has the gimmick of AWD but BMW was defined as the best ride and handling combo - IMO it has lost that "BMW"ness with the new 5 series.
That's embarrassing for BMW on 2 counts.
1) Even with the newest turbocharged engine and spanking new 8-speed auto, it still can't outrun an "old" engine/drivetrain combination(the 2GR-FSE in the GS350 engine has been around since 2005 and the Lexus 6 speed is a carryover from the 3rd Gen)
2) It shows how seriously overweight BMWs specifically the 5 series, have become. That completely betrays the purpose of BMW, which has always been about "the ultimate driving machine" and the hallmark of the 5 series, which has always been about the optimum balance of sport and luxury.
Just how sporty can a shrunken 7 series be?(which is essentially what the F10 5 series is). 400 POUNDS--that's how much weight the 5 series gained--there's no way all the high tech wizardry in the world can conceal that extra mass during spirited driving.
It's not Lexus that has to step up their game, it's BMW that was caught napping and has to scramble now to regain its sporty credentials.
Like I said before, Mercedes can coast on being fast furniture, Audi has the gimmick of AWD but BMW was defined as the best ride and handling combo - IMO it has lost that "BMW"ness with the new 5 series.
Again it has a lot to do with the LFA and its DNA trickling down.
04-12-12, 10:20 AM
#102
400lbs of luxury? Is that what we're calling it now? lol
I6s ARE smoother than a V6, usually... Lexus has been WELL KNOWN for YEARS for having extremely smooth engines (the best in class). Go watch an old LS400 commercial, that 1uz motor was as smooth at idle as the 2jz was.
If you really believe the 550i only makes 400hp (like the 335i only made 300hp), then I think you're putting too much stock into bench racing. The 550i from what I saw will be pushing the same trap speeds as the base 5.0 Mustang, and the 550i weighs A LOT more. Yeah, I just double-checked: C&D test. 4300lbs, "400hp", and 109mph traps.
And yes, that was my point about the Coyote motor, it's in a cheap car and makes awesome power (more than 420 from my sources, and a simple ECU tune will put out Boss 302 numbers, a friend of mine was running 115mph traps with a ECU and other basic boltons)
The Lexus 5.0 is NOT tunable compared to the rest of the cars in its class. Show me the tuners out there that can program the ECU. Adding an aftermarket supercharger and only making 641hp isn't all that impressive these days. I'll bet you'll see new M3s knocking over 600hp with bolt-ons and a tune, same goes for the M5.
I6s ARE smoother than a V6, usually... Lexus has been WELL KNOWN for YEARS for having extremely smooth engines (the best in class). Go watch an old LS400 commercial, that 1uz motor was as smooth at idle as the 2jz was.
If you really believe the 550i only makes 400hp (like the 335i only made 300hp), then I think you're putting too much stock into bench racing. The 550i from what I saw will be pushing the same trap speeds as the base 5.0 Mustang, and the 550i weighs A LOT more. Yeah, I just double-checked: C&D test. 4300lbs, "400hp", and 109mph traps.
And yes, that was my point about the Coyote motor, it's in a cheap car and makes awesome power (more than 420 from my sources, and a simple ECU tune will put out Boss 302 numbers, a friend of mine was running 115mph traps with a ECU and other basic boltons)
The Lexus 5.0 is NOT tunable compared to the rest of the cars in its class. Show me the tuners out there that can program the ECU. Adding an aftermarket supercharger and only making 641hp isn't all that impressive these days. I'll bet you'll see new M3s knocking over 600hp with bolt-ons and a tune, same goes for the M5.
were not talking about the Lexus 1UZ motor, but rather that an I6 is inherently smoother than V6. The current DI 3.5 is well rounded and super refined, but the power from the Inline feels more linear
It's pretty common for German makes to underrate their numbers, in which the "quoted" hp/lbft figures actually reflect CLOSER to whp rather than fly-wheel. So if you want to go off that, then it makes the GS even more impressive given its rwhp is no where near that of the 5.
Not once did I say a tuner can reprogram the ECU. THE MANUFACTUER i.e. Toyota/Lexus is the only one, hence there is plenty of capability. Also note I said "albeit likely supercharged" regarding the LS TMG. Look at the pictures and you won't see an intercooler, but at the same time it can't be disproved. So if in fact it isn't SC'd, 641hp out of a 5.0L V8 is right on par with cars with a full liter more of displacement. Thus proving Toyota did TUNE the motor
04-12-12, 02:30 PM
#103
Lexus Fanatic
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlgrym3
the only thing holding us back trading in our Acura TL for a GS350 f-sport is i'm kind of worry about the lifetime of the existing motor. i don't think this generation GS will use the same 3.5 V6 throughout its model cycle. remember the current 3.5 motor debuted back in 2006 as the 2007 model GS350. i have a hunch Lexus gonna upgrade to a newer better V6 midway through the GS cycle.
I felt really bad for the 2006 GS owners. For them to boost the power by almost 60 hp it was like adding a supercharger to the old motor. I also think buying a first year model is usually asking for trouble. My 03 G35 that was purchased in July of 2002 was a nightmare of little issues. Even my 07 GS still had vibration and rattle issues, and to be honest I am having the same issues with my first year 07 LS460. From this point I will never buy a first or second year model if I can help it
I would asume that Lexus will boost the new motor to the 320-340 HP range to meet the new class benchmarks.
Originally Posted by stlgrym3
the only thing holding us back trading in our Acura TL for a GS350 f-sport is i'm kind of worry about the lifetime of the existing motor. i don't think this generation GS will use the same 3.5 V6 throughout its model cycle. remember the current 3.5 motor debuted back in 2006 as the 2007 model GS350. i have a hunch Lexus gonna upgrade to a newer better V6 midway through the GS cycle.
I felt really bad for the 2006 GS owners. For them to boost the power by almost 60 hp it was like adding a supercharger to the old motor. I also think buying a first year model is usually asking for trouble. My 03 G35 that was purchased in July of 2002 was a nightmare of little issues. Even my 07 GS still had vibration and rattle issues, and to be honest I am having the same issues with my first year 07 LS460. From this point I will never buy a first or second year model if I can help it
I would asume that Lexus will boost the new motor to the 320-340 HP range to meet the new class benchmarks.
04-12-12, 02:46 PM
#104
Lexus Test Driver
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlgrym3
the only thing holding us back trading in our Acura TL for a GS350 f-sport is i'm kind of worry about the lifetime of the existing motor. i don't think this generation GS will use the same 3.5 V6 throughout its model cycle. remember the current 3.5 motor debuted back in 2006 as the 2007 model GS350. i have a hunch Lexus gonna upgrade to a newer better V6 midway through the GS cycle.
I felt really bad for the 2006 GS owners. For them to boost the power by almost 60 hp it was like adding a supercharger to the old motor. I also think buying a first year model is usually asking for trouble. My 03 G35 that was purchased in July of 2002 was a nightmare of little issues. Even my 07 GS still had vibration and rattle issues, and to be honest I am having the same issues with my first year 07 LS460. From this point I will never buy a first or second year model if I can help it
I would asume that Lexus will boost the new motor to the 320-340 HP range to meet the new class benchmarks.
Originally Posted by stlgrym3
the only thing holding us back trading in our Acura TL for a GS350 f-sport is i'm kind of worry about the lifetime of the existing motor. i don't think this generation GS will use the same 3.5 V6 throughout its model cycle. remember the current 3.5 motor debuted back in 2006 as the 2007 model GS350. i have a hunch Lexus gonna upgrade to a newer better V6 midway through the GS cycle.
I felt really bad for the 2006 GS owners. For them to boost the power by almost 60 hp it was like adding a supercharger to the old motor. I also think buying a first year model is usually asking for trouble. My 03 G35 that was purchased in July of 2002 was a nightmare of little issues. Even my 07 GS still had vibration and rattle issues, and to be honest I am having the same issues with my first year 07 LS460. From this point I will never buy a first or second year model if I can help it
I would asume that Lexus will boost the new motor to the 320-340 HP range to meet the new class benchmarks.
If anything, my guess is the improvements we'll likely see with a new motor are going to lean more towards efficiency and fuel economy. Again, the current car is already doing pretty good there too.
I'd go for today's GS. Even with the "old" engine, it's still an impressive leader. Not too mention every model year there's going to be improvements that would be nice to have. Have to bite the bullet eventually.
04-12-12, 04:04 PM
#105
I too felt bad for 2006 GS owners. But think about this... how much higher can Lexus actually improve the current base V6? The car is already fast for a base motor. Plus how much faster can one go in day to day driving? For the entry model, it's already in the 5's, which is pretty amazing. I think adding a faster V6 would entail adding a higher trim level, which takes it out of the base model setting and price range.
If anything, my guess is the improvements we'll likely see with a new motor are going to lean more towards efficiency and fuel economy. Again, the current car is already doing pretty good there too.
I'd go for today's GS. Even with the "old" engine, it's still an impressive leader. Not too mention every model year there's going to be improvements that would be nice to have. Have to bite the bullet eventually.
If anything, my guess is the improvements we'll likely see with a new motor are going to lean more towards efficiency and fuel economy. Again, the current car is already doing pretty good there too.
I'd go for today's GS. Even with the "old" engine, it's still an impressive leader. Not too mention every model year there's going to be improvements that would be nice to have. Have to bite the bullet eventually.
8AT wont do miracles... just like with RX F-Sport, it would increase MPG by 1 for highway and add a bit more power into the midrange due to another gear exploiting the engine better.