Lexus GS 450h, Porsche Panamera S Hybrid, or Infiniti M35h?
05-26-12 | 05:08 PM
#46
To my surprise, the GS wins again. Looks like the new 4GS has won every comparo. We are so accustomed to losing them all that this is becoming curious. Makes me wonder if Lexus Corp has paid off the mags. Nothing to get up in arms about. In my day it was common for record companies to slip a little cash to radio stations to put the latest artist high in the rotation. Companies donate to the Police Athletic League for the benefit of riding around with police stickers on their car hoping to be immune from being stopped.
Lobbyists pany millions to get in the good graces of politicians. So I'm not above believing Lexus is capable of a little payola. I'm sure BMW has done it....how can their cars win comparo's repeatedly the last 20 years?
Why do I believe something like this is possible? As good as the new GS is, I just don't believe it could win an objective comparo against the 100K Panamera.
One thing came to mind when I first entered a Pan....butter baby. That thing was so sweet I melted. I didn't feel any emotion when I got in the 4GS.
The writer stated the Pan was a superior driving car. They said it shrank at high speed, meaning it was very sporty for such a big car. The Pan was faster as well.
The only attribute where the GS came on top....gas mileage. It wins one criteria and it wins the comparo? Against a 100K car??? Not in my book.
I'm am extremely happy our favorite brand is doing so well....but I am an enthusiast first. I am also a realist. The fix is in!
Lobbyists pany millions to get in the good graces of politicians. So I'm not above believing Lexus is capable of a little payola. I'm sure BMW has done it....how can their cars win comparo's repeatedly the last 20 years?
Why do I believe something like this is possible? As good as the new GS is, I just don't believe it could win an objective comparo against the 100K Panamera.
One thing came to mind when I first entered a Pan....butter baby. That thing was so sweet I melted. I didn't feel any emotion when I got in the 4GS.
The writer stated the Pan was a superior driving car. They said it shrank at high speed, meaning it was very sporty for such a big car. The Pan was faster as well.
The only attribute where the GS came on top....gas mileage. It wins one criteria and it wins the comparo? Against a 100K car??? Not in my book.
I'm am extremely happy our favorite brand is doing so well....but I am an enthusiast first. I am also a realist. The fix is in!
05-27-12 | 04:47 AM
#47
Pole Position
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,602
Likes: 88
From: Singapore
The crux is LIVING with the car. You missed the part where they said the Panamera's all round driver visibility was poor and that the HUGE physical dimensions of the car made it a poor daily driver.
Your short test drive only tells you about handling (which a 100,000 Porsche SHOULD win). Motor trend reviewers had to live with the cars for a few days to several weeks at the very least - that should be more informative right?
Besides, there's a forumer here who wons a 4GS and who traded in his Panamera for the 4GS beacuse his wife HATED the poor visibility of the Panny. So there you have it, REAL WORLD evidence that the Panamera might be a less desirable cat to own on a long-term basis despite its superior handling.
Also did you read the part where the Motortrend reviewers actually preferred the subjective feel of the 4GS over the Panny? They said that the Porsche broke grip abruptly and uncomfortably despite its superior grip and slalom time. Whereas the 4GS was slower on the handling circuit but it lost grip in a more predictable and progressive manner.
Your short test drive only tells you about handling (which a 100,000 Porsche SHOULD win). Motor trend reviewers had to live with the cars for a few days to several weeks at the very least - that should be more informative right?
Besides, there's a forumer here who wons a 4GS and who traded in his Panamera for the 4GS beacuse his wife HATED the poor visibility of the Panny. So there you have it, REAL WORLD evidence that the Panamera might be a less desirable cat to own on a long-term basis despite its superior handling.
Also did you read the part where the Motortrend reviewers actually preferred the subjective feel of the 4GS over the Panny? They said that the Porsche broke grip abruptly and uncomfortably despite its superior grip and slalom time. Whereas the 4GS was slower on the handling circuit but it lost grip in a more predictable and progressive manner.
05-27-12 | 06:32 AM
#48
there's a forumer here who wons a 4GS and who traded in his Panamera for the 4GS beacuse his wife HATED the poor visibility of the Panny.
So there you have it, REAL WORLD evidence that the Panamera might be a less desirable cat to own on a long-term basis despite its superior handling because it's too big for singapore, and cuz one guy's wife didn't like the visibility
Also did you read the part where the Motortrend reviewers actually preferred the subjective feel of the 4GS over the Panny? They said that the Porsche broke grip abruptly and uncomfortably despite its superior grip and slalom time. Whereas the 4GS was slower on the handling circuit but it lost grip in a more predictable and progressive manner.
to me they're pretty different vehicles, and if i had the choice of purchasing either one, i'd get the panamera. 
if i had the choice of a 4gs and an m35, i'd get the 4gs.
05-27-12 | 07:35 AM
#49
Pole Position
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,602
Likes: 88
From: Singapore
Isn't Motortrend based in the US? And their reviewers live in the US? Still they said the large dimensions of the Panamera made it a handful during normal driving. So its not a problem confined to Singapore.
The forumer whose wife hated the Panamera appears to be from the US :
Out of the horse's mouth. And it wasn't just his wife - even he found lane changing a handful in the Panamera.
The forumer whose wife hated the Panamera appears to be from the US :
Sorry it has taken so long for me to answer. The reason is simple-the Panamera has terrible visibility and a huge blind spot. I even put an extra wide view adjustable mirror on the outside mirrors which helped, but even when I drove it I had to check three times before changing lanes because the side and rear visibility is so awful. Additionally, the PDK transmission wasn't smooth driving when starting from a stop.
Other areas where GS350 surpasses the Panamera: Superior seat comfort in front but especially in the rear seats, ease of driving, visibilty, sound quality of base stereo system, NAV ease of use, Lexus Enform, huge video display, clarity or rear camera.
What made me switch was that despite the fact that we loved the look of the Panny, my wife continually complained about it. It drives like a large car and is very wide. I borrowed my father in law's 2013 GS F sport for the weekend and my wife loved it. After driving it all day, I asked her if we could get out of our lease 16 months into a 36 mo lease without it costing anything, would she want to get one of these. After sleeping on the idea, she said to see what I could get for it. Since Carmax paid my father in law $7000 over his lease buyout on his 2009 GS350 with 15,000 miles(and over $5000 more than JM Lexus offered), I went to Carmax too. The purchase price of my Panamera new was $79,000 (MSRP 84,500) and lease buyout was $65,000-they offered me $71,000 and wrote me a check for $6000 to take the car. It was a no brainer.
We are loving the new GS. Since we are both in our late 40's and reasonably fit, there were no issues with seat position or ease of entry/exit on the Porsche. The F sport seats are just far more comfortable for a performance luxury car. No matter what you do to it, the Panamera is just that. It is really not a true sports car. It's a large performance luxury sedan.
One other huge benefit. With the GS Fsport MSRP $56,442, 23 payments of $742/mo taxes included costs me $530 less per month that the Panny. The $6000 from Carmax covers 8 payments and the first month was free ( cap cost was paid with multiple coupons/rebates/conquest dolllars). So figure 15 payments of $742 got me out of a Panamera and into a 2013 GS F Sport for 24 months.
Other areas where GS350 surpasses the Panamera: Superior seat comfort in front but especially in the rear seats, ease of driving, visibilty, sound quality of base stereo system, NAV ease of use, Lexus Enform, huge video display, clarity or rear camera.
What made me switch was that despite the fact that we loved the look of the Panny, my wife continually complained about it. It drives like a large car and is very wide. I borrowed my father in law's 2013 GS F sport for the weekend and my wife loved it. After driving it all day, I asked her if we could get out of our lease 16 months into a 36 mo lease without it costing anything, would she want to get one of these. After sleeping on the idea, she said to see what I could get for it. Since Carmax paid my father in law $7000 over his lease buyout on his 2009 GS350 with 15,000 miles(and over $5000 more than JM Lexus offered), I went to Carmax too. The purchase price of my Panamera new was $79,000 (MSRP 84,500) and lease buyout was $65,000-they offered me $71,000 and wrote me a check for $6000 to take the car. It was a no brainer.
We are loving the new GS. Since we are both in our late 40's and reasonably fit, there were no issues with seat position or ease of entry/exit on the Porsche. The F sport seats are just far more comfortable for a performance luxury car. No matter what you do to it, the Panamera is just that. It is really not a true sports car. It's a large performance luxury sedan.
One other huge benefit. With the GS Fsport MSRP $56,442, 23 payments of $742/mo taxes included costs me $530 less per month that the Panny. The $6000 from Carmax covers 8 payments and the first month was free ( cap cost was paid with multiple coupons/rebates/conquest dolllars). So figure 15 payments of $742 got me out of a Panamera and into a 2013 GS F Sport for 24 months.
Last edited by natnut; 05-28-12 at 03:52 AM.
05-27-12 | 08:49 AM
#50
Guest
Posts: n/a
My belief is they included the Panamera b/c it was a hybrid. It is pretty obvious those that want a Panamera will buy it and it doesn't compete with the GS at all, its priced and sized more like the LS and was actually in a comparo agains the LS and other D-class flagships recently. Having recently visited L.A/Hollywood/Beverly HIlls etc...I was STUNNED at the amount of Panamera's I saw. Porsche has a huge hit on their hands with it no matter the price or seemingly the engine option.
NatNut I like your posts but people don't buy these cars for "visibility" out the window, they do for "visibility" in a prestige car.
To me the main issue here is Infiniti who tries to be sportier than Lexus and advertised heavily for this new M35h and even insulted the 3GS 450h in ads is getting its clock cleaned by the new GS and even before the new GS simply wasn't very well received. The hybrid getting 1 less MPG than the GS and being faster than the GSh doesn't seem to matter with consumers at all. For whatever reason(s) its faring poorly with consumers and comparisons. Its like the Q45 all over again.
In regards to the GS 450h it is clear that even the base GS is one of, if not the best driving car in class. The exterior/interior might not be to traditional Lexus owners tastes but looking at sales and comparisons it is a hit. I haven't seen addiitonal Lexus advertising in print so I don't think they "paid off" anyone. Why do we doubt that Lexus has built a product best in class? Though back in 98-00 or so it seems it was some of the same arguments when the 2GS shook up the segment.
I do have to say 70k for a loaded GS 450h does make me ponder the pricing of it. I think that is too much even if its loaded to the gills. Lexus only expects to sell 200-250 a month and we wlll see how it does.
I haven't seen ANY marketing or ads for the 450h yet. Not a good sign to me.
NatNut I like your posts but people don't buy these cars for "visibility" out the window, they do for "visibility" in a prestige car.
To me the main issue here is Infiniti who tries to be sportier than Lexus and advertised heavily for this new M35h and even insulted the 3GS 450h in ads is getting its clock cleaned by the new GS and even before the new GS simply wasn't very well received. The hybrid getting 1 less MPG than the GS and being faster than the GSh doesn't seem to matter with consumers at all. For whatever reason(s) its faring poorly with consumers and comparisons. Its like the Q45 all over again.
In regards to the GS 450h it is clear that even the base GS is one of, if not the best driving car in class. The exterior/interior might not be to traditional Lexus owners tastes but looking at sales and comparisons it is a hit. I haven't seen addiitonal Lexus advertising in print so I don't think they "paid off" anyone. Why do we doubt that Lexus has built a product best in class? Though back in 98-00 or so it seems it was some of the same arguments when the 2GS shook up the segment.
I do have to say 70k for a loaded GS 450h does make me ponder the pricing of it. I think that is too much even if its loaded to the gills. Lexus only expects to sell 200-250 a month and we wlll see how it does.
I haven't seen ANY marketing or ads for the 450h yet. Not a good sign to me.
05-27-12 | 10:40 AM
#52
My belief is they included the Panamera b/c it was a hybrid. It is pretty obvious those that want a Panamera will buy it and it doesn't compete with the GS at all, its priced and sized more like the LS and was actually in a comparo agains the LS and other D-class flagships recently. Having recently visited L.A/Hollywood/Beverly HIlls etc...I was STUNNED at the amount of Panamera's I saw. Porsche has a huge hit on their hands with it no matter the price or seemingly the engine option.
NatNut I like your posts but people don't buy these cars for "visibility" out the window, they do for "visibility" in a prestige car.
To me the main issue here is Infiniti who tries to be sportier than Lexus and advertised heavily for this new M35h and even insulted the 3GS 450h in ads is getting its clock cleaned by the new GS and even before the new GS simply wasn't very well received. The hybrid getting 1 less MPG than the GS and being faster than the GSh doesn't seem to matter with consumers at all. For whatever reason(s) its faring poorly with consumers and comparisons. Its like the Q45 all over again.
In regards to the GS 450h it is clear that even the base GS is one of, if not the best driving car in class. The exterior/interior might not be to traditional Lexus owners tastes but looking at sales and comparisons it is a hit. I haven't seen addiitonal Lexus advertising in print so I don't think they "paid off" anyone. Why do we doubt that Lexus has built a product best in class? Though back in 98-00 or so it seems it was some of the same arguments when the 2GS shook up the segment.
NatNut I like your posts but people don't buy these cars for "visibility" out the window, they do for "visibility" in a prestige car.
To me the main issue here is Infiniti who tries to be sportier than Lexus and advertised heavily for this new M35h and even insulted the 3GS 450h in ads is getting its clock cleaned by the new GS and even before the new GS simply wasn't very well received. The hybrid getting 1 less MPG than the GS and being faster than the GSh doesn't seem to matter with consumers at all. For whatever reason(s) its faring poorly with consumers and comparisons. Its like the Q45 all over again.
In regards to the GS 450h it is clear that even the base GS is one of, if not the best driving car in class. The exterior/interior might not be to traditional Lexus owners tastes but looking at sales and comparisons it is a hit. I haven't seen addiitonal Lexus advertising in print so I don't think they "paid off" anyone. Why do we doubt that Lexus has built a product best in class? Though back in 98-00 or so it seems it was some of the same arguments when the 2GS shook up the segment.
I do have to say 70k for a loaded GS 450h does make me ponder the pricing of it. I think that is too much even if its loaded to the gills. Lexus only expects to sell 200-250 a month and we wlll see how it does.
I haven't seen ANY marketing or ads for the 450h yet. Not a good sign to me.
I haven't seen ANY marketing or ads for the 450h yet. Not a good sign to me.
05-27-12 | 10:55 AM
#53
The crux is LIVING with the car. You missed the part where they said the Panamera's all round driver visibility was poor and that the HUGE physical dimensions of the car made it a poor daily driver.
Your short test drive only tells you about handling (which a 100,000 Porsche SHOULD win). Motor trend reviewers had to live with the cars for a few days to several weeks at the very least - that should be more informative right?
Besides, there's a forumer here who wons a 4GS and who traded in his Panamera for the 4GS beacuse his wife HATED the poor visibility of the Panny. So there you have it, REAL WORLD evidence that the Panamera might be a less desirable cat to own on a long-term basis despite its superior handling.
Also did you read the part where the Motortrend reviewers actually preferred the subjective feel of the 4GS over the Panny? They said that the Porsche broke grip abruptly and uncomfortably despite its superior grip and slalom time. Whereas the 4GS was slower on the handling circuit but it lost grip in a more predictable and progressive manner.
Your short test drive only tells you about handling (which a 100,000 Porsche SHOULD win). Motor trend reviewers had to live with the cars for a few days to several weeks at the very least - that should be more informative right?
Besides, there's a forumer here who wons a 4GS and who traded in his Panamera for the 4GS beacuse his wife HATED the poor visibility of the Panny. So there you have it, REAL WORLD evidence that the Panamera might be a less desirable cat to own on a long-term basis despite its superior handling.
Also did you read the part where the Motortrend reviewers actually preferred the subjective feel of the 4GS over the Panny? They said that the Porsche broke grip abruptly and uncomfortably despite its superior grip and slalom time. Whereas the 4GS was slower on the handling circuit but it lost grip in a more predictable and progressive manner.
Even the LS can't touch the Panny. The Panny is an excellent daily driver and I see no logic in this comparo nor the results. They admit the Panny is faster and handles better but rates the Lexus better?
Something is amiss.
05-27-12 | 08:54 PM
#54
Pole Position
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,602
Likes: 88
From: Singapore
You say that so confidently (that the Porsche is an excellent daily driver) without having lived with the Panny for any extended period of time, unlike the Motortrend reviewers.And conveniently ignore the feedback of a forumer who DID live with the Porsche and found it a poor enough DD that he traded it for a 4GS.
Last piece of the puzzle : they're also rating the cars as hybrids. On that score, the GS450h is the clear winner.
If you were rating the cars solely from a performance/handling standpoint, yes,the Panamera is clearly superior.HOWEVER, liveability, ease of use and fuel efficiency allowed the Lexus HYBRID to overtake the Panamera HYBRID in the overall evaluation in this comparo.
Final thought : sure if someone were to offer the cars to me for free, I'd take the Porsche no questions asked ( and sell it immediately for cash towards my new 4GS F-Sport/ GS-F lol).
The nub of the matter is : what if you have to pay with your own cash? Is the Porsche worth that extra 30,000?
Last piece of the puzzle : they're also rating the cars as hybrids. On that score, the GS450h is the clear winner.
If you were rating the cars solely from a performance/handling standpoint, yes,the Panamera is clearly superior.HOWEVER, liveability, ease of use and fuel efficiency allowed the Lexus HYBRID to overtake the Panamera HYBRID in the overall evaluation in this comparo.
Final thought : sure if someone were to offer the cars to me for free, I'd take the Porsche no questions asked ( and sell it immediately for cash towards my new 4GS F-Sport/ GS-F lol).
The nub of the matter is : what if you have to pay with your own cash? Is the Porsche worth that extra 30,000?
Last edited by natnut; 05-27-12 at 09:37 PM.
05-28-12 | 02:13 AM
#55
Lexus Champion
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 19,955
Likes: 173
Whatever your reasoning or rationale, there is no conceivable scenario where a GS could or should beat out a 100K luxury sport sedan. I've been in both and thius does not even make reasonable sense to me. When I can find logic I reach for the illogical or emotional cause. Lexus using their ample resources to influence people is not above believing.
Even the LS can't touch the Panny. The Panny is an excellent daily driver and I see no logic in this comparo nor the results. They admit the Panny is faster and handles better but rates the Lexus better?
Something is amiss.
Even the LS can't touch the Panny. The Panny is an excellent daily driver and I see no logic in this comparo nor the results. They admit the Panny is faster and handles better but rates the Lexus better?
Something is amiss.
05-28-12 | 03:54 AM
#56
Pole Position
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,602
Likes: 88
From: Singapore
05-28-12 | 04:36 AM
#57
You say that so confidently (that the Porsche is an excellent daily driver) without having lived with the Panny for any extended period of time, unlike the Motortrend reviewers.And conveniently ignore the feedback of a forumer who DID live with the Porsche and found it a poor enough DD that he traded it for a 4GS.
Last piece of the puzzle : they're also rating the cars as hybrids. On that score, the GS450h is the clear winner.
If you were rating the cars solely from a performance/handling standpoint, yes,the Panamera is clearly superior.HOWEVER, liveability, ease of use and fuel efficiency allowed the Lexus HYBRID to overtake the Panamera HYBRID in the overall evaluation in this comparo.
Final thought : sure if someone were to offer the cars to me for free, I'd take the Porsche no questions asked ( and sell it immediately for cash towards my new 4GS F-Sport/ GS-F lol).
The nub of the matter is : what if you have to pay with your own cash? Is the Porsche worth that extra 30,000?
Last piece of the puzzle : they're also rating the cars as hybrids. On that score, the GS450h is the clear winner.
If you were rating the cars solely from a performance/handling standpoint, yes,the Panamera is clearly superior.HOWEVER, liveability, ease of use and fuel efficiency allowed the Lexus HYBRID to overtake the Panamera HYBRID in the overall evaluation in this comparo.
Final thought : sure if someone were to offer the cars to me for free, I'd take the Porsche no questions asked ( and sell it immediately for cash towards my new 4GS F-Sport/ GS-F lol).
The nub of the matter is : what if you have to pay with your own cash? Is the Porsche worth that extra 30,000?
Do I believe journalists are capable of misleading the truth? Yes.....and capital YES!
The same way I didn't believe them in the past when they said how terrible Lexus cars were.
Here's the botton line, raise your hand if you'd rather have a GS over the Panamera. I love Lexus but I ain't stupid.
05-28-12 | 05:10 AM
#58
You don't go from losing every comparo to winning every one of them that quickly without a logical reason. The car isn't that great.
I felt no emotion or excitement on my test drive. None of the usual longing or wanting you get. I liked the drive but it didn't wow me.
If not money, maybe Lexus promised to loan out cars for long term testing. Maybe they promised to sponsor the editor's daughter sweet 16 party.
There's no logoc for the GS to beat out a Panamera. Its not the more desirable car and nothing anyone here says can make me believe otherwise.
Be objective, forget your love for Lexus for a moment. Does this really make sense?
I thought clublexus was different than the many other fanboy sites where they deify their car beyond reasoning or logic.
I consider Lexus to be the best auto brand on the planet....but no individual model Lexus is more desirable than a Panamera. Not to me. The Lexus may be more reliable but Porsche compensates by standing behind theirs cars to the utmost. I won't even talk about a 911 although I could. They have proven to be excellent daily drivers. They just can't seat adults in the back seat for long periods....wait, neither can a GS. The Pan can hold 2 men in the rear all day. You can hold a ton of grocery in it. You can go to the opera in it on a double date.
AND, for us enthusiasts....you can mount a sweet set os 22's it becomes semi-exotic looking. You definitely can not say that about a GS.
I've said enough. I love Lexus but........
I felt no emotion or excitement on my test drive. None of the usual longing or wanting you get. I liked the drive but it didn't wow me.
If not money, maybe Lexus promised to loan out cars for long term testing. Maybe they promised to sponsor the editor's daughter sweet 16 party.
There's no logoc for the GS to beat out a Panamera. Its not the more desirable car and nothing anyone here says can make me believe otherwise.
Be objective, forget your love for Lexus for a moment. Does this really make sense?
I thought clublexus was different than the many other fanboy sites where they deify their car beyond reasoning or logic.
I consider Lexus to be the best auto brand on the planet....but no individual model Lexus is more desirable than a Panamera. Not to me. The Lexus may be more reliable but Porsche compensates by standing behind theirs cars to the utmost. I won't even talk about a 911 although I could. They have proven to be excellent daily drivers. They just can't seat adults in the back seat for long periods....wait, neither can a GS. The Pan can hold 2 men in the rear all day. You can hold a ton of grocery in it. You can go to the opera in it on a double date.
AND, for us enthusiasts....you can mount a sweet set os 22's it becomes semi-exotic looking. You definitely can not say that about a GS.
I've said enough. I love Lexus but........
05-28-12 | 07:31 AM
#59
Super Moderator
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 30,120
Likes: 230
From: Canada
I still can't imagine getting a Porsche and going for the hybrid model, but I can definitely imagine getting a 4GS hybrid, so yes, if I am looking to get a hybrid, I will take the 4GS450h over the Porsche and save the cash, but for regular gasoline models, Panamera over any 4GS for sure regardless of price
05-28-12 | 10:00 AM
#60
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,764
Likes: 1
From: Treasury
4GS did great though, if thats what your budget allows it seems like a great car!