Lexus GS 450h, Porsche Panamera S Hybrid, or Infiniti M35h?
05-28-12, 10:09 AM
#61
If not money, maybe Lexus promised to loan out cars for long term testing. Maybe they promised to sponsor the editor's daughter sweet 16 party.
There's no logoc for the GS to beat out a Panamera. Its not the more desirable car and nothing anyone here says can make me believe otherwise.
Be objective, forget your love for Lexus for a moment. Does this really make sense?
There's no logoc for the GS to beat out a Panamera. Its not the more desirable car and nothing anyone here says can make me believe otherwise.
Be objective, forget your love for Lexus for a moment. Does this really make sense?
I thought clublexus was different than the many other fanboy sites where they deify their car beyond reasoning or logic.
Why did Motortrend like GS450h better than Panamera Hybrid?
While Infiniti and Porsche have performed targeted engineering interventions to net many of a hybrid's practical benefits with as little pain as possible, Lexus has spent the yen and brain-wattage in creating a fascinatingly original and integrated solution.
While the M35h and Panamera Hybrid periodically drive with the shuttering gait of gas/electric Frankensteins composed of imperfectly integrated parts, the GS is -- right down at a genetic level -- a new and better species
On the freeway drives, the Lexus led the mileage pack at 33.5 mpg, followed by the Infiniti (31.5) and Porsche (30.3). But in the stop-and-go miles approaching the mountain, the GS not only magnified its advantage (35.0 versus 30.2 and 29.5, respectively), but began to flaunt its almost Rolls-Royce-ian drivetrain velvety-ness. That was in stark relief (double meaning intended) to the M 35h's jolty acceleration and puzzling episodes of seeming lost in its gear changes.
But at least as unexpected was the GS' handling while trailing in the Porsche's wake. Though much slower, its tail actually drifted, its throttle modulations adeptly fine-tuned its understeer, and its turn-in was sweet. When I figure-eight-tested the car, I actually yelled out, "I can't believe this is a hybrid!" as it oversteered out of the corners (and with more delicacy than the Panamera, which tended to abruptly snap back into line -- ouch, the neck).
No farther than the first right turn, I shouted, "Curb!" -- because, from my side-window vantage, we were on a collision trajectory to scrape a wheel worth more than my first car. "You drive, then," she said and immediately pulled over. It took exactly one turn for the Panamera's lengthy wheelbase and porthole-view outward vision to cause an argument. A car shouldn't cause arguments this quickly, and there are many more examples like this that I can cite of the Porsche's unease at coexisting with humans. The Panamera is like having a 200-pound panther as a pet. It's happy racing through the neighborhood jungle, but around the house it tends to knock the coffee table over, wine glasses flying everywhere.
After our comparison drive, editor at large Angus MacKenzie asked me which of these cars I'd really prefer to drive. I responded, "Around a racetrack" -- suspecting that's what he was getting at -- "no question, the Porsche. But to the racetrack, the Lexus."
What exactly is there to wonder after reading the review? Lexus is rolls-royce like smooth, still fast enough and gets 20% better mpg, while being $40k cheaper. It is a lot easier to live with and still very much fun to drive... To me it read as if while Porsche was being a lot quicker in the corners, Lexus actually felt better to drive - standard reason why Lexus usually lost the comparos before.
Heck, we have user on forums that traded Panamera for GS450h because he felt it wasnt livable sedan.
05-28-12, 10:33 AM
#62
Pole Position
You're right, I haven't lived in either car. The Pans are all over the place in south Florida and I have questioned several owners in person and on 6speedonline.com and no one is complaining about the Pan's attributes as a daily. Many of the people I see driving them are women. At least half actually. So no....I don't believe there is a problem with daily driving the Pan.
Do I believe journalists are capable of misleading the truth? Yes.....and capital YES!
The same way I didn't believe them in the past when they said how terrible Lexus cars were.
Here's the botton line, raise your hand if you'd rather have a GS over the Panamera. I love Lexus but I ain't stupid.
Do I believe journalists are capable of misleading the truth? Yes.....and capital YES!
The same way I didn't believe them in the past when they said how terrible Lexus cars were.
Here's the botton line, raise your hand if you'd rather have a GS over the Panamera. I love Lexus but I ain't stupid.
You keep on going on about how Motortrend must be on the take simply because subjectively, you don't like the 4GS that much and you're projecting that dislike on the Motortrend editors' intentions.
What makes more sense : you're just biased against the 4GS or that a major automobile magazine wants to **** off a HUGE major car company (Volkswagen owns Porsche) just cause Toyota greased their palms and risk being blackballed from every VW, Audi, Porsche and Bugatti event in the future? Really??? Really??? (Repeated for emphasis)
My logic has been clear. Overall rating of the HYBRID car = fuel efficiency + liveability + performance. Panny wins in the performance . GS wins in everything else so wins overall. What's wrong with my logic? All you have is that you keep falling back on the price bracket of the car and how much more expensive it is, so it must be better? And that you see Panameras around all the time. How many of those are the only cars in the household? Chances are, most of these function as second or third cars in the family.
However, if you wanted a complete car/well rounded car to serve as the family workhorse, the 4GS hybrid would be a better prospect. And that's what MT essentially said when they rated GS450h over Panny hybrid. I don't undertstand why you you won't accept that : GS hybrid > Panamera hybrid as a more complete car. Panny hybrid > GS hybrid as a performance vehicle (or to show off to the neighbors).
Look, I agree that if the Panamera was a second car and if I wanted to make a statement at the country club, I'd choose the Panamera all day. But MT was judging the cars as DD/only car in the houshold and on that count, the GS wins.
PS : 4GS rear seats are pretty comfortable. You own a 3GS with cramped rear seats yet you're saying a 4GS rear seats which are significantly roomier can't pass muster? OK......
PPS : hand on my heart, I would never get the Panamera because it's a BOAT. That thing is huge. On a wide-open race track lovely, but how often am I going to track it? Most of my driving enjoyment will be a windy narrow deserted back roads when I get the chance on my daily commutes. The Panny would just scrape the kerbs of the backroads. The smaller more nimble GS will serve my need for driving enjoyment in a much more accessible fashion. However, I do note that Porsche is coming out with a smaller sedan positioned below the Panamera. If that comes out in time, I would look seriously at that car as an alternative to the 4GS.
Last edited by natnut; 05-28-12 at 10:54 AM.
05-28-12, 11:41 AM
#63
Sorry it has taken so long for me to answer. The reason is simple-the Panamera has terrible visibility and a huge blind spot. I even put an extra wide view adjustable mirror on the outside mirrors which helped, but even when I drove it I had to check three times before changing lanes because the side and rear visibility is so awful. Additionally, the PDK transmission wasn't smooth driving when starting from a stop.
Other areas where GS350 surpasses the Panamera: Superior seat comfort in front but especially in the rear seats, ease of driving, visibilty, sound quality of base stereo system, NAV ease of use, Lexus Enform, huge video display, clarity or rear camera.
What made me switch was that despite the fact that we loved the look of the Panny, my wife continually complained about it. It drives like a large car and is very wide. I borrowed my father in law's 2013 GS F sport for the weekend and my wife loved it. After driving it all day, I asked her if we could get out of our lease 16 months into a 36 mo lease without it costing anything, would she want to get one of these. After sleeping on the idea, she said to see what I could get for it. Since Carmax paid my father in law $7000 over his lease buyout on his 2009 GS350 with 15,000 miles(and over $5000 more than JM Lexus offered), I went to Carmax too. The purchase price of my Panamera new was $79,000 (MSRP 84,500) and lease buyout was $65,000-they offered me $71,000 and wrote me a check for $6000 to take the car. It was a no brainer.
We are loving the new GS. Since we are both in our late 40's and reasonably fit, there were no issues with seat position or ease of entry/exit on the Porsche. The F sport seats are just far more comfortable for a performance luxury car. No matter what you do to it, the Panamera is just that. It is really not a true sports car. It's a large performance luxury sedan.
One other huge benefit. With the GS Fsport MSRP $56,442, 23 payments of $742/mo taxes included costs me $530 less per month that the Panny. The $6000 from Carmax covers 8 payments and the first month was free ( cap cost was paid with multiple coupons/rebates/conquest dolllars). So figure 15 payments of $742 got me out of a Panamera and into a 2013 GS F Sport for 24 months.
Other areas where GS350 surpasses the Panamera: Superior seat comfort in front but especially in the rear seats, ease of driving, visibilty, sound quality of base stereo system, NAV ease of use, Lexus Enform, huge video display, clarity or rear camera.
What made me switch was that despite the fact that we loved the look of the Panny, my wife continually complained about it. It drives like a large car and is very wide. I borrowed my father in law's 2013 GS F sport for the weekend and my wife loved it. After driving it all day, I asked her if we could get out of our lease 16 months into a 36 mo lease without it costing anything, would she want to get one of these. After sleeping on the idea, she said to see what I could get for it. Since Carmax paid my father in law $7000 over his lease buyout on his 2009 GS350 with 15,000 miles(and over $5000 more than JM Lexus offered), I went to Carmax too. The purchase price of my Panamera new was $79,000 (MSRP 84,500) and lease buyout was $65,000-they offered me $71,000 and wrote me a check for $6000 to take the car. It was a no brainer.
We are loving the new GS. Since we are both in our late 40's and reasonably fit, there were no issues with seat position or ease of entry/exit on the Porsche. The F sport seats are just far more comfortable for a performance luxury car. No matter what you do to it, the Panamera is just that. It is really not a true sports car. It's a large performance luxury sedan.
One other huge benefit. With the GS Fsport MSRP $56,442, 23 payments of $742/mo taxes included costs me $530 less per month that the Panny. The $6000 from Carmax covers 8 payments and the first month was free ( cap cost was paid with multiple coupons/rebates/conquest dolllars). So figure 15 payments of $742 got me out of a Panamera and into a 2013 GS F Sport for 24 months.
05-28-12, 11:59 AM
#64
I'm not hearing objectivity from the article nor you guys. Here's what my senses tell me:
Motor Trend said.the Panamera handled better.
Motor Trend said the Panamera was faster.
I say The Panamera is more luxurious.
I say the Panamera has a better looking and better quality interior.
I say the Panamera looks better.
I say the Panamera has better prestige and pedigree.
Motor Trend said the GS gets better gas mileage.
I say the GS probably is more reliable.
Both are roomy and comfy.
Both have good tech but I didn't try the Panamera system as extensively as I did the GS so i can't say for sure.
What's not logical is the MT guys saying the Pan is a better drivers car but they'd rather live with the GS. Not drive but live with. The reason I remember them saying was visability...which I know is a load of crock.
Look, I'm happy Lexus is getting props....but I smell something fishy.
Just voicing my view. I'm done with comments. Peace out.
Motor Trend said.the Panamera handled better.
Motor Trend said the Panamera was faster.
I say The Panamera is more luxurious.
I say the Panamera has a better looking and better quality interior.
I say the Panamera looks better.
I say the Panamera has better prestige and pedigree.
Motor Trend said the GS gets better gas mileage.
I say the GS probably is more reliable.
Both are roomy and comfy.
Both have good tech but I didn't try the Panamera system as extensively as I did the GS so i can't say for sure.
What's not logical is the MT guys saying the Pan is a better drivers car but they'd rather live with the GS. Not drive but live with. The reason I remember them saying was visability...which I know is a load of crock.
Look, I'm happy Lexus is getting props....but I smell something fishy.
Just voicing my view. I'm done with comments. Peace out.
05-28-12, 12:41 PM
#65
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
05-28-12, 07:26 PM
#66
Guest
Posts: n/a
But it isn't the first time the GS has been picked over a vehicle not in its class. in CAR a few years ago they compared the
5
GS
CLS
And they picked
1. 5
2. GS
3. CLS
Also recently the GS was pitted against the Audi A7 and while it barely lost the comparo, it was seen as the better driving vehicle though the A7 is more expensive.
I've had extensive seat time in the 3/4GS and it is a night/day driving difference and the quality, features, build are a step up. I might not love the looks inside and out but on paper all the metrics are superior. It is simply that damn good to be winning comparisons.
I think its not just that the GS is winning comparos that is also bugging people. Its that people don't like the new GS and its winning comparos.
If anything Lexus needs to build a 4 door coupe A7/CLS/Pan/etc competitior and a coupe and maximize this incredible platform they have built.
5
GS
CLS
And they picked
1. 5
2. GS
3. CLS
Also recently the GS was pitted against the Audi A7 and while it barely lost the comparo, it was seen as the better driving vehicle though the A7 is more expensive.
I've had extensive seat time in the 3/4GS and it is a night/day driving difference and the quality, features, build are a step up. I might not love the looks inside and out but on paper all the metrics are superior. It is simply that damn good to be winning comparisons.
I think its not just that the GS is winning comparos that is also bugging people. Its that people don't like the new GS and its winning comparos.
If anything Lexus needs to build a 4 door coupe A7/CLS/Pan/etc competitior and a coupe and maximize this incredible platform they have built.
05-29-12, 12:56 AM
#67
05-29-12, 06:58 AM
#70
Lexus Test Driver
But it isn't the first time the GS has been picked over a vehicle not in its class. in CAR a few years ago they compared the
5
GS
CLS
And they picked
1. 5
2. GS
3. CLS
Also recently the GS was pitted against the Audi A7 and while it barely lost the comparo, it was seen as the better driving vehicle though the A7 is more expensive.
I've had extensive seat time in the 3/4GS and it is a night/day driving difference and the quality, features, build are a step up. I might not love the looks inside and out but on paper all the metrics are superior. It is simply that damn good to be winning comparisons.
I think its not just that the GS is winning comparos that is also bugging people. Its that people don't like the new GS and its winning comparos.
If anything Lexus needs to build a 4 door coupe A7/CLS/Pan/etc competitior and a coupe and maximize this incredible platform they have built.
5
GS
CLS
And they picked
1. 5
2. GS
3. CLS
Also recently the GS was pitted against the Audi A7 and while it barely lost the comparo, it was seen as the better driving vehicle though the A7 is more expensive.
I've had extensive seat time in the 3/4GS and it is a night/day driving difference and the quality, features, build are a step up. I might not love the looks inside and out but on paper all the metrics are superior. It is simply that damn good to be winning comparisons.
I think its not just that the GS is winning comparos that is also bugging people. Its that people don't like the new GS and its winning comparos.
If anything Lexus needs to build a 4 door coupe A7/CLS/Pan/etc competitior and a coupe and maximize this incredible platform they have built.
05-29-12, 07:28 AM
#71
Guest
Posts: n/a
Seriously..its not rocket science..take GS platform..put in new interior, new body, keep 4 doors, call it coupe, offer V-8, watch it sell like hotcakes
05-29-12, 07:43 AM
#72
Lexus Test Driver
Things that seem so simple to us...........
S7 optioned out will likely be 80k-ish
CLS 550 with 4matic is throwing down mid 4's with a TT v8 and "reasonable mpg" at 80k
Lexus, chop the GS a little, give us the power plant, DONE!
S7 optioned out will likely be 80k-ish
CLS 550 with 4matic is throwing down mid 4's with a TT v8 and "reasonable mpg" at 80k
Lexus, chop the GS a little, give us the power plant, DONE!
05-29-12, 08:40 AM
#73
05-29-12, 08:47 AM
#74
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
speaking of gs450h, when is it shipping, or is it already shipping (in u.s.)?