i don't think the sales figures will mean a whole lot because lexus has the es as well as the gs, and now, according to 1sicklex, ths isf should somehow be part of the mix too (doesn't make sense to me, being a much smaller car, but hey).

 

In the domestic market of Japan, not only does Lexus have the rear drive GS and the front drive ES, it also has the Crown and the Mark X [nee Cressida] as well.
So in a situation like this, we are forced to add all the midsize luxury units together.
Thus Lexus isn't fairing that badly in the midsize luxo market at all.
However, combined ES and GS sales could be even better than what it has been in the past.
Then Lexus will be a really dominant player in the midsize luxo market...




Toyota Motor Corp actually has 4 different midsize luxury skins - three of them rear drivers running on the one platform.
The Mark X [nee Cressida] is half way between a C and E Class for size...

 

Mike love ya like a big girl luvs cake lol, we will have to agree to disagree. It's not a correction when it's my opinion that I'm not thrilled with Lexus. However, I still drive a very purdy one daily, lol.

Not sure why the past is supposed to be forgotten, the 2GS may not mean much to you but I fell in love witht that car. And still get turned on when I turn the corner and see her sitting there parked and looking pissed off. Why would I not want Lexus to make me feel that way about its evolutionary next of kin. Jag and Audi are the only two companies offering anything close for me at the moment, but I'm not jumping ship just yet. Don't mistake my criticism as not having love for the brand, but I'm not planning to build an altar anytime soon either.

Like you I'm not a small person, taller actually so the F serves no purpose for me. (oh btw, had a very similar story to yours with an F not too long ago and some turns, l)

 

And the fact that the 3GS has a really competitive Infiniti M to compete with that was introduced at exactly the same time,whereas the 2GS did not have to deal with that, and I think the Infiniti M took A LOT of sales from the 3GS, and it has much less effect on the sales of the BMW 5 and the E class ... 2GS and 3GS sales cannot be directly compared because of the increased competition from Japan for the 3GS ...

 

Talking about rear ends and someone throwing in new Avalon here is something weird.

Same Avalon rear pic on the same page of Toyo website, one is distorted and one is not.

 

20 bucks says E class beats out the other 2 in sales from 1998 all the way to 2011

 

Disclaimer: These #s are from Wikipedia so keep that in mind:


1998
GS
5series
Eclass

1999
GS
5series 39,218
Eclass

2000
GS
5series 39,703
Eclass

2001
GS
5series 40,005
Eclass

2002
GS
5series 40,842
Eclass 44,445

2003
GS
5series 46,964
Eclass 42,598

2004
GS
5series 45,584
Eclass 58,954

2005
GS 33,457
5series 52,722
Eclass 50,383

2006
GS 27,390
5series 56,756
Eclass 50,195

2007
GS 23,381
5series 54,142
Eclass 48,950

2008
GS 15,759
5series 45,915
Eclass 38,576

2009
GS 7,430
5series 40,109
Eclass 43,072

2010
GS 7,059
5series 39,488
Eclass 60,922

2011
GS 3,746
5series 51,491
Eclass 62,736

 

Andrew and I are sales data'd out If someone wants to compile the work we did be my guest. Of the top of my head the 5/E sold around 50k units its best years and even when they got older around 40k units. The GS sold around 30k units its best years down to a couple thousand as it got older. Big difference.

I think Mr. Johnson is a very credible source, longtime members, makes tons of sense and owned a GS 400 then supercharged it and then an IS F. The GS 400 was the "bad boy" Lexus and the IS F took that title. All the things we were doing to the GS and wished for are in the IS F
-handles better
-more power
-better suspension
-better brakes
etc etc

You are 100% right though it is smaller. However "spiritual successor" means size can have little merit.

lol The 2GS means so much to me, hell I bought 2. I still love the car but I know its time passed and what market in 1998-2000 is simply completely different to 2012. I mean back in 1998 you didn't even have 240-300hp Nissan Altima/Maximas around. It is CLEARLY obvious for whatever reasons Lexus did not expand on the power jump from 2GS to 3GS. The 3GS should have offered the 380hp LS 4.6 and not some detuned 342hp engine. For whatever reasons the 3GS became the Lexus to experiment with high powered hybrids. Now back in 2007 the GS 450h was comparable to power and performance as V-8s. For 2012, no way! Again the bar moved and Lexus did not move with it or create a new bar with the GS that maybe an early GS 400 owner might have liked to see.

Hell I would have loved to see a 400hp 3GS etc but it didn't happen.

Andrew brings up a great point below.

Exactly, and I swear I've rehashed this point 1,000 times. 1998 is not 2005, 2012. Everything is DIFFERENT.

1998 the only cars worth a damn were GS/E/5. The auto market was so "stale" they were the "muscle cars" to have. There were no Chargers, Challengers, Camaros. The Mustang was a slug, the GT no faster than those V-8 luxury sedans. The STS, XJ, S80, A6 were all also rans. infiniti didn't even have a car in that segment. The RL has always been a failure.

2005
All cars made leaps. VQ V-6 changed the V-6 game. The Germans are in the midst of power war. Infniit and Acura have much better entries. The Jaguar XF is on the way. THe A6 and S80 are much better. Lincoln is better, everyone is better. Style has changed too. More cars are stylish from Altima's to Jaguars.

2012
More car leaps. Hyundai builds a damn GS/LS comeptitor. Turbo/S/Cs are now very popular. Audi has risen from the ashes. Non luxury cars are stylish with tons of power. The Germans now offer 400hp V-8s, 500/600hp sedans.


The segment has never been better or more competitive. A GS 500 could debut and unless it has 700hp it will simply be "another" entry in a crowded field! 400hp is the new 300hp and Lexus has got to get with it.

We had a thread where we went from 2 cars with 500hp to I think over 80 in just a few years.

My posts are not to just defend the GS which some people simply see. It take a full analysis of the past decade+ to offer a post/opinion that is not just fair and balanced but encompasses as much data as possible. Hell I didn't even touch on how GS leases always sucked (which hurts sales) compared to the Germans/Infiniti and how people bought GS's but leased the competition. Which is why it so frustrating to see "simple" posts "OMG IT LOOKS LIKE HYUNDAI" without no investigation on how these designs came to be.

The GS F better come and has to come to give the GS the boost it needs. There is no other way or option. THERE IS NONE. A coupe would help too

Lexus is pushing in all directions right now
-new tech
-new style
-new sport offerings/F sport
-new segments

That I don't expect it to all "make sense" until the end of this decade.

 

to gs69's #'s - (thank you, first of all, for posting), and add in 'es' and the picture changes entirely.

 

Damn, I was on the money with my E/5 series sales guess. Lol.

What recession? ****ing 5/E cost more than ever and sell better than ever. Crazy lol

 

2011 GS 3,746

Ouch. Hopefully Lexus has learned their lesson from 3rd Gen GS. Having options are key.

5 and E are so successful because of the wide range of choices you can have. From the base model plain jane car to the ones that hit $80K+!

 

The Mercedes E-class also offers a diesel...........something which many manufacturers (still) stubbornly won't offer in the U.S.

And even 80K is far from the limit.....E63 AMGs can run over 100K. I reviewed one, a few years ago, at 94K.

 

again, add ES sales in, and lexus is right there or above volumes of 5/e.

 

first of all thank you GS69 for all the numbers, awesome. too bad we don't have numbers on the 2gs to track

the 5 and e will win by big margins for sure. but that's not the point at all.

the way i see it, how all the cars fare with each other across the same generation is more interesting. fact is, more and more cars are sold year over year (overall). and there are also more and more competitors (but again, the competitors would go head to head to the "big" 3 so it's a fair game).

i think what's interesting is how the 2gs and 3gs sales taper off over the years, and the e / 5 would be the reference on what the market is like. if 3gs sales tapered off fast or the ratio of car sales is less than that of 2gs, that's some indication. just because lexus sold 3gs and 3gs had some good years that means nothing by itself.

and regarding the es, i don't think it's an excuse saying that it sells a lot and that's why the gs sales is low (and it's ok). bottom line is it's lexus decision to have the es, and btw that's a fantastic call, i am all for it. however, lexus is the one to decide releasing both cars so close to each other, limiting advertising and marketing on the gs, etc... all that causes the sales of the gs to lose traction. simple as that

 

I think what Paul is saying is also another good point. The GS wasn't meant to sell in the 5/E sales figures and Lexus has the ES which means its hard to make direct comparisons in regards to sales with the GS and even IS. The ES (which was before the IS/GS) has a wonderful role and does extremely well with sales. Its easy for people to say "OMG GS doesn't sell like Germans" but its not exactly an apples to apples comparison. What is important is the GS meet its sales goal which it is doing whereas a car like the HS didn't come close and got canned.

Ryan makes a good point that Lexus needs to find a way to keep GS sales rolling so they don't taper off so badly when the model is older.