DustinV

Both the Germans and Italians dominated motorsport racing in the early half of the 20th century: Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Auto Union, Mercedes-Benz and to a lesser extent Horch were the primary participants in this duel.

After World War II, most of the Italian brands pulled out of motorsport or focused on a particular motorsport niche in general. Lancia was adding FWD to their entire lineup and became involved in rallying (during the 1920s and 1930s Lancia was famous for their mountain racers) and basically stuck with this niche.

Only Alfa Romeo, Ferrari and Maserati had a consistant motorsport record after World War II competing mainly in Formula One, Le Mans, Touring Cars, Mountain Races.

Lamborghini has zero motorsport heritage. They only recently started participating in touring car championships.

Bugatti was a French brand, not Italian, and their racing heritage was confined from the mid-1900s to the late 1930s, possibly the early '40s.


The German brands, with the exception of Volkswagen (although VW has some motorsport heritage), were heavily involved in motorsports throughout their existence and they dominated these. I don't think it's a secret to look at the glorious history of Mercedes-Benz and Porsche and the various racing events that they dominated, won or participated in (Formula One, Formula Three, Indy Car, Le Mans, Carrera Panamericana, London-Sydney Rally, Algiers-Capetown, Truck Racing etc.). These two German brands have been the most consistent in their motorsport endeavors .

BMW as well was and still is a force to be reckoned with in motorsports. Auto Union, NSU, Wanderer and Horch (what would eventually become Audi) was involved in racing throughout the 1920s and 1930s and after World War II focused on rallying where they were very successful. And look at Audi now in Le Mans.



I would say the article is correct. The German car brands as a whole have far more motorsport heritage than the Italians. The Italians are in second place! Not that it really matters.

DustinV

What about the motorsport aspect? Or are you going to tell me you bought your Porsche because it looks cool and you like to go shopping with it?

Motorsport success is a great marketing tool and demonstrates the engineering prowess of the winning company and the talented drivers they hire. Motorsport victories literally sold the road cars of a firm in the old days, and to an extent still do because many people know that Porsche, or Mercedes or BMW for example have a solid and credible motorsport heritage.


I own two German cars and the running costs are very low. And I live in Europe, where everything is more expensive than back home in the US.

You say you drive a Porsche. Low running costs? Uh, yeah. Sure. Porsche dealerships are just as if not more expensive than their fellow German brands in terms of what they charge (or cost of parts).

As the article stated. The German brands have history and heritage, successful motorsport histories and are respected globally. People are willing to spend a lot of money on these cars because, let's face it, you're getting a quality product. The Germans make good cars. If they didn't, people wouldn't buy them.

mmarshall

The rear-engined, tail-heavy Auto-Unions (later, of course, to become Audi), were a real handful on a race track. With the relatively primitive suspensions of the 1930s, their sensitive tendency to swap-ends with little provoking made some of the best racing drivers in the world loath to drive them.

DustinV

I visited the Audi Museum in Ingolstadt a few months ago. They had an original Auto Union racer there that was confiscated by the Russians after World War II. A beautiful machine.

I have nothing but admiration for the men who drove those death traps!

speedflex

Only in North America. The article seems to be looking at the issue globally, not just form a U.S. perspective. Given that there is quite a gap between the Germans and the rest.

blacksc400

iTrader: (4)

True then, I know a lot of Asian countries still love Germans brand more than Japanese brand.

speedflex

Starting with Japan itself (at least when it comes to choosing an expensive luxury auto).

superchan7

I should distance my Cayman from this argument. It's a niche car and commands higher running costs by nature.

The point I tried to make relates to mass-market models. My VW Passat, nice interior and all, got stuck in Park at 5 months old. A rear bushing failed at 1 year old, and at 30k miles the steering tie rods were out. Light bulbs failed 1-2 times a year, sometimes the same light. This is not "quality", and $3000 front suspension overhauls at 100k miles is not "low maintenance." My friends' Jettas were similar money pits.

My MB CLK lost a $1200 catalytic converter and a seat motor at under 100k miles, with a struggling window motor too. Not as bad as the Passat, I'll admit!

All that is just ranting, but my point is that people buy storied, aspirational brands and put up with the costs. Doesn't necessarily mean the quality is better, and although performance is a big quality, reliability is a critical quality as well.

LexFather

I should get paid to write more lol...

The article was very good except for the weird slap at Lexus and Ferrari. Uhhh, Ferrari is not SUPPOSED to sell in Porsche volumes, the 2 brands prices are completely different. Lexus was at least mentioned, no other brand was mentioned so that shows Lexus is a force.

This is what myself and MPLexus touched on in the last few months. With Audi's ascension in America, Acura's and Infiniti's failure to elevate themselves the balance of power has shifted in America to what it is like in Europe and that hurts Lexus.

Lexus needed Infiniti and Acura to get their **** together so "Japanese Luxury" would be seen as completely legitimate. Instead we have Lexus as the sole true luxury entrant from Japan and the only one actually sold in Japan. Germany has the big 3, all arguably even when you judge the lineups. Big difference.

Japanese luxury here was all the rage in the 1990s and early 2000s. With Audi turning their fortunes around here they have blown past Acura and Infiniti with true Tier 1 product and their sales continue to increase. Acura outselling Audi here means nothing, Ford is supposed to outsell Jaguar for instance. The Yen has killed the value of Japanese luxury, something I noted over a year ago in a thread. With the value eroding of Asian luxury marques, what would happen? Infiniti stated recently they want to have price parity of the Germans. They only state it b/c they have NO CHOICE as the yen trades like crap. Look at how the Infiniti M struggles priced like the Germans.

The article hits home the perception problems that now are compounded for Japanese marques. Lexus fell off the #1 sales spot and is in a transitionary period trying to push sport into their brand. Infiniti sells 4 freaking SUVs and 2 car lines with 60% of sales one model the G in the past. Acura is now fighting with Buick and we all know their well documented problems. Contrarily Audi has produced interesting cars like the R8, expanded their S and RS line, became "Cool" with cars like the A5/S5 and their LED lights and has expanded their SUV range. Then they have true flagships like the A8 and now even the A7 series. Its no wonder people are knocking down Audi's door.

Lexus will be hurt in all this even as they improve. Lexus is clearly Tier 1 here and Tier 2 in Europe. It used to be the flipside for Audi, Tier 2 here and Tier 1 in Europe.

So get used to more German supremacy here and quite frankly its too late for Infiniti and Acura. They dropped the ball in their homecourt of America the latter half of the decade. We already see Hyudai's rise and in the next 2 decades Chinese luxury will be next. Its funny but this is EXACTLY what I predicted when the economy tanked, people will buy the familiar and respected luxury brands and the others will see sales dwindle.

Barring some abnormal catastrophic event in Europe, German luxury will reign supreme for those points listed. It doesn't hurt they offer everything from the A1 to twin turbo V-12s

As for Dustin, he will tell you Germany invented the space shuttle and a 1975 7 series is more reliable than a 2012 LS

Vh_Supra26

iTrader: (1)

I think BMWs are awful. I made a mistake of buying a E39 years ago. Part and labor cost an arm and leg. The thing always had issues. I'm never touching another German again.

LexPaul

True..

toy4two

Porsche - Good, but Panameria ... uh, when I was in Stuggart at the factory last year I didn't see any SUVs or sedans in the museum.. hmmm
Merc - stopped being interesting when you can' t buy a manual in the US, styling is "cheap" Hyundai looks better, their C series looks like a Chysler, even the SLS grille looks laughably like it came out of Detroit.
BMW - Good
Audi - unreliable and expensive (I own one).

mmarshall

As bad as with Mercedes and Porsche shops? Among mass-produced brands, those two brands generally set the screw-the-customer standard for parts/repair-prices.

spwolf

Wait, Lancia was competing in "niche" WRC (which was very successful worldwide), then where the heck did BMW compete, DTM? DTM can not be compared to WRC, unless you are german I guess. Nobody else cared about DTM though. Whole world watched WRC.
What else? It supplied engines to F1 in 80's and early 90's but thats not the same as for instance Scuderia Ferrari.

Italians have way more heritage than germans, not to mention that germans are still unable to field one truly exclusive brand since spectacular Maybach failure, so they are much better off with buying heritage from English and Italians.

Out of German brands today, only company actually spending some money in racing is Mercedes. Audi and BMW are very limited in their worldwide motorsport participation today. I doubt all 3 together can equal Ferrari when it comes to heritage in racing, which never stopped, while all germans have had their ups and downs.

As to the article, rise in sales mostly has to do with the fact that they added so many cheap models and now cost of entry is A1 with 86hp. VW sales are going up but how long is that going to last? Who really knows... as they are back to #3rd this year with Hyundai strongly on their tail.

I8ABMR

some good points made but extremely biased. If the Germans build the best cars then why has Lexus BLOWN UP since they hit the market in 1989 ??? Its because the German car companies cant design a car as reliable and durable as Lexus. Year after year the numbers do not lie.