SurfsUP

iTrader: (6)

So true about the 911 turbo's. My neighbor just received his special factory ordered 911 turbo with all the GT3 parts but without the body parts to look like a GT3. He even had them specially paint it brown so it wouldn't look too racy.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

want to try track stock to stock? why people just keep on saying a tuned 335 is superior to m3 is really beyond me. i know so many people with tuned 335, and they have nothing but great things to say about m3 (as in better than their cars, still)

rominl

iTrader: (4)

lol, actually for a dd, i think 335 is an overkill too

i hate to say, but i had the m3 for 3 years and it was a fantastic dd

GSteg

iTrader: (15)

No doubt they can sell more cars, but why tarnish the M-brand for the sole purpose of profit? They already have the bread and butter models to take care of sales.

Those people should be looking at the 335 instead of the M3. But because everyone must have an M-series, BMW is making the car less special by watering it down to meet those demands. "Hey Toyota, your IS-F rides too harsh and it's too noisy. Tone it down to the level of the IS350. Even though the IS350 makes more sense for me, I still want an IS-F."


They can coexist because they're two different cars. One will please the comfort crowd while the other satisfies the hardcore racers. One is produced in the ten-thousands, while the other in the hundred/thousand. What BMW did with their M5 is equivalent to making the GT3 soft and plushy as the 911, but offering a bit more power. It goes against the philosophy of the car and everything it stood for.

Why not just get a 550i?


I agree, but without the hardcore enthusiasts, you wouldn't have some of the brands you have today. What is BMW without the M-series, Mercedes without AMG, and to a certain extent, Lexus without the F-series? Their performance-oriented cars are game-changers and they shape the brand. When all your neighbors own the same car as you, it's no longer unique. It'll be just another 325i that you see every 4.2 seconds.

LexFather

Glad to see you get it.

This article isn't really anything new, its been discussed for sometime but Jalopnik is very good at getting attention Their recent Tesla article comes to mind.

Quite a few people now refer to M as "Mass" or "Marketing". It simply is nowhere near the purist sub-brand it was in the past. Which is fine, BMW themselves stated they are chasing sales, every company is chasing sales. Which is why the M brand as expanded to include everything from non M engine cars to SUVs.

Understand in my eyes they clearly are still incredible cars, the new ones. Even with them going softer and bigger they still are amazing. That said to me and to many people that once mythical "M" is gone. With AWD, Turbos, high weight, less manuals, etc etc they are like a AMG/RS/F car to me. With AMG/RS/F cars etc all getting sportier well the once unbeatable "M" is getting beat left and right. How many of you remember the times when it didn't matter what review the "M" car was in, it won, period, end of discussion. I want to say nearly 2 decades of wins!

What was so magical about the E39 M5 for example was while everyone else offered an auto, BMW offered a stick. ONLY. There was no automatic. If that isn't for purists, I don't know what is. While the E60 might have offered the manual as the option, it was offered. And that V-10 in a sedan inspired by F1, its magical just to think of it.

Technology has gotten better too. BMW's new SMGs are very well done compared to the past. We have a new generation of buyers who probably have never even seen or been in a manual car! Think about that for a second?!?!? What was once a niche brand of "M" cars is something that sells I believe in excess of 100,000 cars a year and surely VERY profitable for the company.

What I would love to see? Maybe sell the "M" cars as they are today and then sell "CSL" versions of each one for the true purists, manuals, ligther and more involving. I am sure they would sell well in limited quantities (they don't want everyone with one) and it will help keep the mythical nature of the M car. Porsche knows all about it with manual GT3/GT2 cars..

The bottom line is this article isn't stating anything new at all and the "death" of the purist "M" brand created life for the new M brand. No matter if you like it or not, its called EVOLUTION.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

and they sold, what, 5?

the REALITY is that CERTIFYING (yeah that govt b.s.) cars is EXPENSIVE. you cannot make cars in very small numbers without charging a fortune for them. BMW M cars are not like an MB SLS, or a Lexus LF-A. they're meant to be more accessible, without a stratospheric price. so there's a chicken and egg. if it's more 'niche' it will sell less, and the price has to be way higher to cover costs (unless it's pure halo and they know they'll lose money), which makes it sell less, which means the price has to be higher, which makes...

you can thank government regulations for killing small run vehicles. i have a picture in my mind of a euro govt bureaucrat checking the bumper height to see that blind squirrels aren't hurt, or a u.s. govt bureaucrat driving a ferrari as if it were a camry for some other worthless test...

rominl

iTrader: (4)

actually fwiw bmw sold a respectable number of e39 m5

but then again that's before people got too lazy, haha

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

Hyundai is competing at the same level as S-Class, 7-Series, A8, XJ and Lexus LS, never say never.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

regarding the topic, yeah all manufacturers love to make more money, they want profit, etc... gosh seriously, if that's the case, there shouldn't have been m (and amg) to begin with at all. it's been tons and tons of money, and the sales volume has never been "tons" anyway. but m was created for a reason, for the high end performance group, those looking for the real driving.

you tell me that mentality has not shifted / it's ok? come on, i don't see how it is ok. of course it's ok when it comes to making more money (similar engine, shared platform, etc...), but from a purist point of view? it's just a laugh.

again that's why i am somewhat not very interested in the f10 m5. i am sure it's a great car and very fast, but it somehow lost that identity. i almost call my e93 (e9x) marginal already. it still carries good m spirit (high rev NA), but the weight was already getting out of hand. after that...?

in the end, to me m is becoming more and more like amg. market wise it's probably the move, easier to compete, potentially more buyers (people with money rather than people with driving spirit). public loves amg, i am sure they will continue to love m.

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

"Most" people just focus on straight line acceleration on the street, in that case, a modded 335 is quicker then a stock M3.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

sure, but just like many things, most people don't really understand what something is really about.

LexFather

Seems 35,000 M5s were sold prior to the E60. Not sure how many were E39s but I would say at least half. Its not like people are not asking for and in the USA DEMANDING manuals. They are. BMW even stated around 15% are manuals for the M5. Thats a pretty good take rate! In comparison seems the take rate on the Ferrari California is .1% or something crazy.

Carmakers can build what they want. They choose not to build manuals, they choose to base it off the 7 series, they choose to play a fake engine note. BMW is way WAY WAY to talented of a company to try to tell us this is the only way.

And it is hurting their image. I was at Bimmerfest and there was tons of talk of how awesome the new M5 is but there was tons of talk of preference to the E39/E60. BMW performance shops are still smitten by the old cars too. They will surely work and mod the new cars but ask the employees, they will tell you things have changed and to them not for the better outside of more power.

That said the fact we can debate about a 550hp super-saloon is still credit to BMW. At least they are still building it. Like you and many, I think a "CSL" version would be amazing.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

i guess i am more critical here. given how they kept on saying no on m7, and then out of nowhere the x5m and x6m, i lost a lot of respect on the m division already. and now the f10 m5 makes it even more.

that's why i am right now so interested in looking into a e60 m5. yes it's not the powerful, yes it's horrible on gas. but yes it still has that m soul imho

from the bottom of my heard, 550hp so what, hp is "cheap" these days, especially when you are just using similar engine and FI the hell out of it. i mean, gosh 500hp so what, amg has done it way back in 2003 with the e55. people got 1000hp out of various cars too. but the overall driving package is what put brands like bmw and porsche on the map.

mmarshall

I'm aware that not everyone agrees with me on the 335-M3 comparison...and I respect that. But that doesn't necesarily mean that I "Don't get it". The M3, with its higher-HP/higher-revving powerplant, and track-ready suspension, is clearly the better choice on the track, where civility, low-moderate RPM, and a modicum of ride-comfort are not a factor. But, compare the M3 with the Sport-Package 335I (I've driven both), with the 335's greater torque at lower-RPM, superb ride/handling compromise, lower price, and, for the street as a DD, I still say the 335 wins.

1sWt2GS

iTrader: (6)

i didn't say the 335 is superior to the M3

i said a tuned 335i will take a m3 (assuming stock) and for most people, and IMO a 335i is way more affordable, does the job, and is more practical. I know plenty of people that picked up a 335i, tuned it to make more power and have left-over money to mod the heck outta their 335.

who doesn't want an M? I, myself, would love and wished I could afford an M. The prestige, the looks it gets, shape of the body, just saying you own an M, etc. but then again that last part you mentioned is getting into the discussion where its "my car is better than yours" and I don't believe that's necessary

That said, I wish I had the money to DD a M3 I can only imagine what your Weekend Car is