The Death Of BMW’s M Brand
07-10-12, 11:56 AM
#32
i didn't say the 335 is superior to the M3 
i said a tuned 335i will take a m3 (assuming stock) and for most people, and IMO a 335i is way more affordable, does the job, and is more practical. I know plenty of people that picked up a 335i, tuned it to make more power and have left-over money to mod the heck outta their 335.
who doesn't want an M? I, myself, would love and wished I could afford an M. The prestige, the looks it gets, shape of the body, just saying you own an M, etc. but then again that last part you mentioned is getting into the discussion where its "my car is better than yours" and I don't believe that's necessary
That said, I wish I had the money to DD a M3
I can only imagine what your Weekend Car is
i said a tuned 335i will take a m3 (assuming stock) and for most people, and IMO a 335i is way more affordable, does the job, and is more practical. I know plenty of people that picked up a 335i, tuned it to make more power and have left-over money to mod the heck outta their 335.
who doesn't want an M? I, myself, would love and wished I could afford an M. The prestige, the looks it gets, shape of the body, just saying you own an M, etc. but then again that last part you mentioned is getting into the discussion where its "my car is better than yours" and I don't believe that's necessary
That said, I wish I had the money to DD a M3
I can only imagine what your Weekend Car is
07-10-12, 12:00 PM
#33
i didn't say the 335 is superior to the M3
i said a tuned 335i will take a m3 (assuming stock) and for most people, and IMO a 335i is way more affordable, does the job, and is more practical. I know plenty of people that picked up a 335i, tuned it to make more power and have left-over money to mod the heck outta their 335.
who doesn't want an M? I, myself, would love and wished I could afford an M. The prestige, the looks it gets, shape of the body, just saying you own an M, etc. but then again that last part you mentioned is getting into the discussion where its "my car is better than yours" and I don't believe that's necessary
That said, I wish I had the money to DD a M3 I can only imagine what your Weekend Car is
i said a tuned 335i will take a m3 (assuming stock) and for most people, and IMO a 335i is way more affordable, does the job, and is more practical. I know plenty of people that picked up a 335i, tuned it to make more power and have left-over money to mod the heck outta their 335.
who doesn't want an M? I, myself, would love and wished I could afford an M. The prestige, the looks it gets, shape of the body, just saying you own an M, etc. but then again that last part you mentioned is getting into the discussion where its "my car is better than yours" and I don't believe that's necessary
That said, I wish I had the money to DD a M3
I can only imagine what your Weekend Car isagain, sorry about that
07-10-12, 12:08 PM
#34
I have a buddy who has a 335i. He's modded it to the point where it is as fast as an M3. He put in M3 suspension parts, upgraded the engine ECU, etc. Its a great car, but he's spent so much on it, that he could have just bought a real M3 in the beginning instead. At least from a depreciation perspective, a real M3 is going to keep its value alot more than a heavily modded 335i.
its definitely a trade off.I know its not the same comparison or similar at all and might not make sense
but some people prefer a modded ek (back in the 90's) than a potentially stock civic-sino need to apologize! m3 totally makes sense, its for those that want the prestige, the best BMW class has to offer and the looks and head turning from everyone on the street.
Last edited by 1sWt2GS; 07-10-12 at 12:11 PM.
07-10-12, 12:50 PM
#36
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
another reality, is that while the u.s. is still a hugely important market for all makes, it is less important than it once was. and many other big markets, especially emerging ones, have huge tarriffs and taxes and regulations, and so makers have to factor all that in too. tooling up to make a few thousand stick shift M5's for the u.s. may not make any economic sense at all.
i think all makers are feeling the squeeze, cost reducing where they can, many compromising their previous 'values' or image to do so, while having no choice but to conform to endless byzantine regulations, and add more, and more, and more safety stuff, which adds to cost, plus product and manufacturing complexity.
there's a reason apple only makes a couple of phones, 3 laptops, a few computers.
i think all makers are feeling the squeeze, cost reducing where they can, many compromising their previous 'values' or image to do so, while having no choice but to conform to endless byzantine regulations, and add more, and more, and more safety stuff, which adds to cost, plus product and manufacturing complexity.
there's a reason apple only makes a couple of phones, 3 laptops, a few computers.
07-10-12, 01:25 PM
#37
While I agree that the BMW M's are getting softer, I think lots of others are as well. Many drivers want comfort, power, style and technology all wrapped in one. They are less concerned with handling since so few of us have enough open road to enjoy curves.
I'm in the process of testing several cars. Everytime a salesman tries to explain the steering wheel paddle shifters I tell them never mind. I don't intend to use them. To me they are for posers. if there is no clutch it isn't real. Only a clutch/shifter providing heel and toe with hand coordination provide the exhileration and control of a performance car I grew up loving.
Who has a clutch these days? Very few.
Then we have so much tech in the new cars that it distracts the driver from truly enjoying the drive. The tech can be fun but since it takes such a big part of attention does the driver really care if the car is not high performance?
I've said many times I'm not into having the most horsepower. I want nice power but how the car handles is more important to me. I happen to like the combination of a luxury/sport ride. So the BMW and new 911 with electronically assisted steering don't bother me. I can handle the twisties very well with these set ups. Long as the car has a low center of gravity and low profile tires, I'm good. But traditionally, BMW was like driving on rails. Apparently, BMW thinks we want softer cars. We'll see if that works out.
What really bothers me is if they produce less quality cars. That's part of what I'm hearing from the purists. That is unforgivable.
I'm in the process of testing several cars. Everytime a salesman tries to explain the steering wheel paddle shifters I tell them never mind. I don't intend to use them. To me they are for posers. if there is no clutch it isn't real. Only a clutch/shifter providing heel and toe with hand coordination provide the exhileration and control of a performance car I grew up loving.
Who has a clutch these days? Very few.
Then we have so much tech in the new cars that it distracts the driver from truly enjoying the drive. The tech can be fun but since it takes such a big part of attention does the driver really care if the car is not high performance?
I've said many times I'm not into having the most horsepower. I want nice power but how the car handles is more important to me. I happen to like the combination of a luxury/sport ride. So the BMW and new 911 with electronically assisted steering don't bother me. I can handle the twisties very well with these set ups. Long as the car has a low center of gravity and low profile tires, I'm good. But traditionally, BMW was like driving on rails. Apparently, BMW thinks we want softer cars. We'll see if that works out.
What really bothers me is if they produce less quality cars. That's part of what I'm hearing from the purists. That is unforgivable.
07-10-12, 01:57 PM
#38
another reality, is that while the u.s. is still a hugely important market for all makes, it is less important than it once was. and many other big markets, especially emerging ones, have huge tarriffs and taxes and regulations, and so makers have to factor all that in too. tooling up to make a few thousand stick shift M5's for the u.s. may not make any economic sense at all.
i think all makers are feeling the squeeze, cost reducing where they can, many compromising their previous 'values' or image to do so, while having no choice but to conform to endless byzantine regulations, and add more, and more, and more safety stuff, which adds to cost, plus product and manufacturing complexity.
there's a reason apple only makes a couple of phones, 3 laptops, a few computers.
i think all makers are feeling the squeeze, cost reducing where they can, many compromising their previous 'values' or image to do so, while having no choice but to conform to endless byzantine regulations, and add more, and more, and more safety stuff, which adds to cost, plus product and manufacturing complexity.
there's a reason apple only makes a couple of phones, 3 laptops, a few computers.
07-10-12, 03:59 PM
#39
Guest
Posts: n/a
another reality, is that while the u.s. is still a hugely important market for all makes, it is less important than it once was. and many other big markets, especially emerging ones, have huge tarriffs and taxes and regulations, and so makers have to factor all that in too. tooling up to make a few thousand stick shift M5's for the u.s. may not make any economic sense at all.
i think all makers are feeling the squeeze, cost reducing where they can, many compromising their previous 'values' or image to do so, while having no choice but to conform to endless byzantine regulations, and add more, and more, and more safety stuff, which adds to cost, plus product and manufacturing complexity.
there's a reason apple only makes a couple of phones, 3 laptops, a few computers.
i think all makers are feeling the squeeze, cost reducing where they can, many compromising their previous 'values' or image to do so, while having no choice but to conform to endless byzantine regulations, and add more, and more, and more safety stuff, which adds to cost, plus product and manufacturing complexity.
there's a reason apple only makes a couple of phones, 3 laptops, a few computers.
That is exactly what is sounds like. The irony. Where are the enthusiasts in this thread? Does anyone here remember the threads BMW boasted in the past?-we will never do forced induction, not pure
-we choose manuals
-we want lightweight involving cars
-we will never do SUVs
We know thats a complete 180.
And again I and most surely cannot blame them as many stated here. Sales, $$$$ talks. There are more markets today. People simply want the badge, the cladding, the power, the rarity. Quite frankly while the initial thought of an X5 M or X6 M hurt my head, today I think its rather grand 
BMW also has billions in the bank, its not like they are struggling. They seem to be putting a ton of money into a supercar hybrid that is coming. Surely that is costly than anything they could do to make the M models more like the original versions. Which is why I would love to see CSL versions of their cars to keep the purists happy! You should see some of the BMWs guys, they are up in arms about where the "M" brand has gone and have left. They are outnumbered by a new generation of people that buy the car just because of the badge.EVO (99% sure its EVO but can't find the article online)did a "M" battle last year where they tested every single "M" car. All the old cars were in the top rankings and the new cars were in the back. But hey, they sell better.
Here CAR picked the E46 M3 CSL over the brand new much faster, more expensive GTS
http://www.bmwblog.com/2010/08/19/ca...e-greatest-m3/
I just remember growing up how undefeated "M" was and how it was the most left of all the luxury brands in regards to sport and now its in the middle. In the past there was NO DOUBT that BMW "M" was as sporty as a luxury vehicle came. I remember the E34 M5 brochure I taped open as a youth. Its a brand I have always admired and still admire and hell no you would not kick me out of bed in a F10 M5
But I know if an E39 M5 pulls up next to me, that is quite a bit more special. And isn't that the point?
Last edited by LexFather; 07-10-12 at 04:14 PM.
07-10-12, 05:03 PM
#40
Lexus Test Driver
Put simply today M= $, in the past it was M= Motorsport.
It is not just a BMW thing, even with more power, alot of this new tech is taking the fun out of cars.
Some cars are just special, an no amount of marketing hype to me make the new ones better..
A great example, Car and driver did a comparo recently, of new BMW M5, MB E63 AMG and Audi S6. Didn't really care for any of them, compared to a old comparo I remember of E39 BMW M5, MB E55 AMG, and Audi RS6. Now I can buy all three of the old sedans for the price of one of the newer, to filled with tech super sedans ! Anyway to me at least all three would be more fun to drive then the modern versions, and that is before adding mods !
It is not just a BMW thing, even with more power, alot of this new tech is taking the fun out of cars.
Some cars are just special, an no amount of marketing hype to me make the new ones better..
A great example, Car and driver did a comparo recently, of new BMW M5, MB E63 AMG and Audi S6. Didn't really care for any of them, compared to a old comparo I remember of E39 BMW M5, MB E55 AMG, and Audi RS6. Now I can buy all three of the old sedans for the price of one of the newer, to filled with tech super sedans ! Anyway to me at least all three would be more fun to drive then the modern versions, and that is before adding mods !
07-10-12, 05:16 PM
#41
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The only car in the BMW lineup that makes little to no sense to me is the 335iS.
A well-optioned 335iS runs around $61-$64k MSRP.
A base M3 sedan (no options) starts at $55k, and optioned up it'll probably hover around the $70k mark.
I don't understand the market for the 335iS. It seems like a no brainer to just spend a little more and get the M3 if you're willing to spend $60k+ on a 335iS.
A well-optioned 335iS runs around $61-$64k MSRP.
A base M3 sedan (no options) starts at $55k, and optioned up it'll probably hover around the $70k mark.
I don't understand the market for the 335iS. It seems like a no brainer to just spend a little more and get the M3 if you're willing to spend $60k+ on a 335iS.
07-10-12, 05:36 PM
#42
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Tell me what is performance related in the F-sport models? As I mentioned, a lightly modified suspension and EPS tuning. That's it. Everything else is race inspired cosmetic enhancements - steering wheel, shift ****, grill inserts, F-sport badges, spoilers, sport pedals and microfiber seat inserts. No drive train modifications - not even the already available intake and exhausts - again, you have to pay extra for that. But you could pay extra and not get the F-sport package. So needless to say, it is basically a cosmetic enhancement to the car, aka RICE.
07-10-12, 05:39 PM
#44
who doesn't want an M? I, myself, would love and wished I could afford an M. The prestige, the looks it gets, shape of the body, just saying you own an M, etc. but then again that last part you mentioned is getting into the discussion where its "my car is better than yours" and I don't believe that's necessary
07-10-12, 09:52 PM
#45
Lexus Fanatic
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thanks. 
key words: the past. things change. consumers change. driving conditions change. etc.
maybe so but eventually they realized they couldn't get the fuel economy without it. (gee, govt regs forced this again)
most americans are now fat, sit in traffic eating fast food, are older, and couldn't care less about manuals. things change.
i've also stated over and over that manuals don't make sense in cars with huge horsepower.
guess what - govt required cars to add mountains of safety stuff adding weight, but then had to drop weight to help with fuel economy and cost, using crap like run flats. things change.
guess what, suvs rock for millions (including me). making 'performance' suvs is awesome. i say the world is better off with a porsche cayenne gts! 
exactly.
that's adapting to changing requirements, market opportunities, threats, and changing consumer tastes.
no doubt earlier 'm' vehicles were simpler, more performance-oriented with less creature comforts, and sometimes quite crude. i remember high strung FOUR cylinder m3's.
your knowledge of car history is huge, but maybe you're not the target market any longer. i've found many people who buy really powerful cars are actually clueless about them!
Does anyone here remember the threads BMW boasted in the past?
-we will never do forced induction, not pure
-we choose manuals
things change.i've also stated over and over that manuals don't make sense in cars with huge horsepower.
-we want lightweight involving cars
-we will never do SUVs
Quite frankly while the initial thought of an X5 M or X6 M hurt my head, today I think its rather grand
We know thats a complete 180.
EVO (99% sure its EVO but can't find the article online)did a "M" battle last year where they tested every single "M" car. All the old cars were in the top rankings and the new cars were in the back. But hey, they sell better.
I just remember growing up how undefeated "M" was and how it was the most left of all the luxury brands in regards to sport and now its in the middle. In the past there was NO DOUBT that BMW "M" was as sporty as a luxury vehicle came. I remember the E34 M5 brochure I taped open as a youth. Its a brand I have always admired and still admire and hell no you would not kick me out of bed in a F10 M5 But I know if an E39 M5 pulls up next to me, that is quite a bit more special. And isn't that the point?
But I know if an E39 M5 pulls up next to me, that is quite a bit more special. And isn't that the point?