The Death Of BMW’s M Brand
07-10-12, 10:06 PM
#46
Lexus Fanatic
I wouldnt say that the M brand is going anywhere , but I will admit this "Special" M3 is a joke. If its doesnt add performance than there is nothing special about it. If the price difference is very small I dont see an issue with it but they try and charge a hefty premium for nothing significant added than it seems like a bit of a fraud. I have to say that the M5s system where they are pumping in fake engine noise through the speakers is straight up shameful for the M division. Its like a super model who pads her bra. There's no reason ! LOL If they wanted to keep the car as luxurious as possible than why not just add an exhaust system with actuated vales so it can be quiet when its supposed to and very throaty when needed
07-11-12, 03:14 AM
#47
Some of the posts mentioned SUV's.
I hate them. I hate that they block your view.
I hate that the driver usually drives them slower than you want to go.
I hate there are so many of them around you in traffic.
I just don't like them.
I knew their popularity would eventually change the way cars were made and they have.
Now we have people like BMW making high powered models....for what reason. Just to make money.
I'm sorta ok with the family that needs a big and roomy utility vehicle to accomodate a large family but these faux suv's with seating for 4 and no extra cargo space and big power are just blocking the flow of traffic. They are a joke.
I hate them. I hate that they block your view.
I hate that the driver usually drives them slower than you want to go.
I hate there are so many of them around you in traffic.
I just don't like them.
I knew their popularity would eventually change the way cars were made and they have.
Now we have people like BMW making high powered models....for what reason. Just to make money.
I'm sorta ok with the family that needs a big and roomy utility vehicle to accomodate a large family but these faux suv's with seating for 4 and no extra cargo space and big power are just blocking the flow of traffic. They are a joke.
07-11-12, 04:10 AM
#48
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07-11-12, 10:47 AM
#50
This guy is over reacting. This is just BMW trying to make a few extra bucks on a special package. Yes, this "Lime Rock Edition" does seem gaudy and doesn't add much but I'm sure their is a market for it.
07-15-12, 03:04 PM
#51
Lexus Test Driver
Is "death" an overstatement? Probably, but it's also just as likely to be a figurative statement. As others have mentioned in this thread, it's amazing that in the last 10 years or so, the Japanese and Germans (or perhaps it is more accurate to say, Toyota and the Germans) have completely changed the direction that their performance leaders are trending? How soon will it be until they have completely changed places?
It's flabbergasting the number of people in this thread who would defend companies on the notion that as long as they are chasing profits, it's OK. It might be easy to justify companies trying to squeeze every last penny out of their customers or nickel and dime them. It is a different question as to whether this is good for the industry and usually the opposite question as to whether this is good for enthusiasts. Profits are about the masses, but is that really what is good for us (and I think I can speak for "us" given we are all enthusiastic enough about our hobby/interest to take the time to post on internet forums)? After all, just ask yourself this:
When have enthusiasts in any industry ever been benefited by what the masses want?
Of course, don't answer that. It is a stupid rhetorical question, since enthusiasts always lead the masses; it is never the other way around. It is enthusiasts who pay premiums to buy cutting edge products and services, and it is enthusiasts who lead the way as far as getting companies to develop cutting edge products and services. That's what allows the masses to experience them.
If you really, actually sit there and defend companies by saying we should condone or even support profit-mongering rather than companies that have the ***** to be cutting edge and enthusiast-oriented, then apparently you want an alternate world. And guess what - in that alternate world where companies only care about profits, there is no Lexus LFA. There is no Lexus IS F. And there is probably no FT-86. Why are we posting on this forum, then?
Posters in this thread talk about how they want a combination of luxury and performance. I have no problem with that (that's why I love my IS F after all, even if some people here think even that's too hardcore). Consumers are free to express their values, so enjoy your 997 Turbo instead of a GT3, your 335i instead of an M3, whatever you like. That's fine, but only so long as you understand that if there is no GT3* there is probably no Turbo as you know it today, just as if there is no M3 there is probably no 335i as you know it today (and probably no Lexus IS either, for that matter). Cars that combine luxury and performance exist because hardcore performance cars exist. It is certainly not the other way around.
I have long said that the FT-86 is the last chance for the enthusiast auto industry as we know it. If the FT-86 fails, it is time to to buy your LFA, your GT3 RS 4.0, or whatever it may be, because these will be the last examples of great performance cars. The reason for that is evident from many of the posts in this thread, to which my only response can be: Be careful what you wish for.
* By GT3, I'm referring to the high-end performance marque of Porsche generally, not the GT3 name specifically (which has only existed since the 90s, but I guess could historically be traced back as far as the 962 anyway).
07-15-12, 05:15 PM
#52
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I was considering a new Z4 until I read BMW removed its world renowned steering feel and numbed it down. No point in owning a sports car that has no road feedback.
07-15-12, 08:02 PM
#53
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I have long said that the FT-86 is the last chance for the enthusiast auto industry as we know it. If the FT-86 fails, it is time to to buy your LFA, your GT3 RS 4.0, or whatever it may be, because these will be the last examples of great performance cars. The reason for that is evident from many of the posts in this thread, to which my only response can be: Be careful what you wish for.
07-15-12, 08:27 PM
#54
Lexus Test Driver
I call it the FT-86 so I don't have to call it "the FR-S/GT 86/86/BRZ", since I was clearly referring to the success of the platform no matter its actual name. I have no idea why you bring up the new GS. You would have a point if it had 4 different names under 3 different brands and 2 different companies, but it does not.
07-16-12, 08:42 AM
#55
I agree - if there was a time when the M brand started dying, it was with ridiculous crud like the X5m and X6m. They followed that up with giving up on naturally-aspirated engines because of fuel economy concerns, and the same with getting rid of manual transmissions. Porsche has been almost as bad, giving up the best feature of their cars (world-best steering feel) in favor of an electric steering system (that reviewers have criticized as even worse than the FT-86, a car the fraction of the cost), ostensibly again to chase fleetwide gas consumption targets. And people are happy that junk like the Cayenne exists, under the sham guise that the profits help them to make 911s? Well, the 911s are now worse, so "the end justifies the means" can't even be an excuse.
Is "death" an overstatement? Probably, but it's also just as likely to be a figurative statement. As others have mentioned in this thread, it's amazing that in the last 10 years or so, the Japanese and Germans (or perhaps it is more accurate to say, Toyota and the Germans) have completely changed the direction that their performance leaders are trending? How soon will it be until they have completely changed places?
It's flabbergasting the number of people in this thread who would defend companies on the notion that as long as they are chasing profits, it's OK. It might be easy to justify companies trying to squeeze every last penny out of their customers or nickel and dime them. It is a different question as to whether this is good for the industry and usually the opposite question as to whether this is good for enthusiasts. Profits are about the masses, but is that really what is good for us (and I think I can speak for "us" given we are all enthusiastic enough about our hobby/interest to take the time to post on internet forums)? After all, just ask yourself this:
When have enthusiasts in any industry ever been benefited by what the masses want?
Of course, don't answer that. It is a stupid rhetorical question, since enthusiasts always lead the masses; it is never the other way around. It is enthusiasts who pay premiums to buy cutting edge products and services, and it is enthusiasts who lead the way as far as getting companies to develop cutting edge products and services. That's what allows the masses to experience them.
If you really, actually sit there and defend companies by saying we should condone or even support profit-mongering rather than companies that have the ***** to be cutting edge and enthusiast-oriented, then apparently you want an alternate world. And guess what - in that alternate world where companies only care about profits, there is no Lexus LFA. There is no Lexus IS F. And there is probably no FT-86. Why are we posting on this forum, then?
Posters in this thread talk about how they want a combination of luxury and performance. I have no problem with that (that's why I love my IS F after all, even if some people here think even that's too hardcore). Consumers are free to express their values, so enjoy your 997 Turbo instead of a GT3, your 335i instead of an M3, whatever you like. That's fine, but only so long as you understand that if there is no GT3* there is probably no Turbo as you know it today, just as if there is no M3 there is probably no 335i as you know it today (and probably no Lexus IS either, for that matter). Cars that combine luxury and performance exist because hardcore performance cars exist. It is certainly not the other way around.
I have long said that the FT-86 is the last chance for the enthusiast auto industry as we know it. If the FT-86 fails, it is time to to buy your LFA, your GT3 RS 4.0, or whatever it may be, because these will be the last examples of great performance cars. The reason for that is evident from many of the posts in this thread, to which my only response can be: Be careful what you wish for.
* By GT3, I'm referring to the high-end performance marque of Porsche generally, not the GT3 name specifically (which has only existed since the 90s, but I guess could historically be traced back as far as the 962 anyway).
Is "death" an overstatement? Probably, but it's also just as likely to be a figurative statement. As others have mentioned in this thread, it's amazing that in the last 10 years or so, the Japanese and Germans (or perhaps it is more accurate to say, Toyota and the Germans) have completely changed the direction that their performance leaders are trending? How soon will it be until they have completely changed places?
It's flabbergasting the number of people in this thread who would defend companies on the notion that as long as they are chasing profits, it's OK. It might be easy to justify companies trying to squeeze every last penny out of their customers or nickel and dime them. It is a different question as to whether this is good for the industry and usually the opposite question as to whether this is good for enthusiasts. Profits are about the masses, but is that really what is good for us (and I think I can speak for "us" given we are all enthusiastic enough about our hobby/interest to take the time to post on internet forums)? After all, just ask yourself this:
When have enthusiasts in any industry ever been benefited by what the masses want?
Of course, don't answer that. It is a stupid rhetorical question, since enthusiasts always lead the masses; it is never the other way around. It is enthusiasts who pay premiums to buy cutting edge products and services, and it is enthusiasts who lead the way as far as getting companies to develop cutting edge products and services. That's what allows the masses to experience them.
If you really, actually sit there and defend companies by saying we should condone or even support profit-mongering rather than companies that have the ***** to be cutting edge and enthusiast-oriented, then apparently you want an alternate world. And guess what - in that alternate world where companies only care about profits, there is no Lexus LFA. There is no Lexus IS F. And there is probably no FT-86. Why are we posting on this forum, then?
Posters in this thread talk about how they want a combination of luxury and performance. I have no problem with that (that's why I love my IS F after all, even if some people here think even that's too hardcore). Consumers are free to express their values, so enjoy your 997 Turbo instead of a GT3, your 335i instead of an M3, whatever you like. That's fine, but only so long as you understand that if there is no GT3* there is probably no Turbo as you know it today, just as if there is no M3 there is probably no 335i as you know it today (and probably no Lexus IS either, for that matter). Cars that combine luxury and performance exist because hardcore performance cars exist. It is certainly not the other way around.
I have long said that the FT-86 is the last chance for the enthusiast auto industry as we know it. If the FT-86 fails, it is time to to buy your LFA, your GT3 RS 4.0, or whatever it may be, because these will be the last examples of great performance cars. The reason for that is evident from many of the posts in this thread, to which my only response can be: Be careful what you wish for.
* By GT3, I'm referring to the high-end performance marque of Porsche generally, not the GT3 name specifically (which has only existed since the 90s, but I guess could historically be traced back as far as the 962 anyway).
07-16-12, 12:38 PM
#56
But then the hardcore performance model always come out after the mainstream model though.
I know what you were trying to say, just picking on you
07-17-12, 10:50 AM
#57
I have long said that the FT-86 is the last chance for the enthusiast auto industry as we know it. If the FT-86 fails, it is time to to buy your LFA, your GT3 RS 4.0, or whatever it may be, because these will be the last examples of great performance cars. The reason for that is evident from many of the posts in this thread, to which my only response can be: Be careful what you wish for.
Reluctant to change and accept new concept is human nature. Eventually when the new idea is matured, everyone think is great.
Of course there are always exception to everything and all depends on how you look at it. That's why pre war vintage cars is still the coolest. Does that mean hand crank start is better then push button start?
I am surprise you like the LFA and ISF if you think that way, people who have your believes only think cars with a manual clutch pedal is a true real enthusiast car.
Last edited by BNR34; 07-17-12 at 10:54 AM.
07-17-12, 02:43 PM
#58
Lexus Test Driver
haha......good save, I was gonna diss you by saying the 911 Turbo came out in 1976 where the GT3 came out in 1999, then thinking deeper into it, the real spiritual ancestor of the GT3 is the 1973 911 2.7 RS, so yes the RS came out before the Turbo.
But then the hardcore performance model always come out after the mainstream model though.
I know what you were trying to say, just picking on you
But then the hardcore performance model always come out after the mainstream model though.
I know what you were trying to say, just picking on you
Also, I dispute the notion that the hardcore performance model always comes out after. Maybe that's true if you limit to a generation-by-generation view of a specific model, but that's certainly not what I meant (and not what I said) - a historical view shows something completely different.
Besides, the change we see today is bigger than manual transmission or not. We are talking about a forseeable, government-ruled future when internal combustion engines may no longer exist.
07-17-12, 10:24 PM
#59
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who has a MP3 of this BMW Fake Engine/Turbo noise, I want to burn it to a CD so my 4 banger can sound cool...I'll even roll down my windows at the street races
