House Republicans urge White House to delay 2017-2025 fuel economy standards
#76
Lexus Champion
Haha at least for once, we both agree on something.
But yeah, going back, I mean I'm not against regulation by any government. It's just that there has to be equal and equitable balance.......that has to be reasonable to all parties concerned. Unfortunately, it seems that it's getting out-of-hand.
The way that governments are doing............seems to heavily put AMG's V12 TWIN TURBO engine development and modernisation programme at risk. It *almost* happened once and with more intense and unreasonable over-regulation, there may be a future when Mercedes Benz will not make V12 engines anymore.
This is also happening in Formula 1 motorsport as well. From V10 engines, we've now gone to 2.4 liter V8 engines.........and by 2014, there is a proposal from the FIA that will now require F1 teams to use V6 turbo engines
Damn, too much interference from eco-terrorists like Greenpeace.
F1 engine downsizing = MAJOR FAIL
But yeah, going back, I mean I'm not against regulation by any government. It's just that there has to be equal and equitable balance.......that has to be reasonable to all parties concerned. Unfortunately, it seems that it's getting out-of-hand.
The way that governments are doing............seems to heavily put AMG's V12 TWIN TURBO engine development and modernisation programme at risk. It *almost* happened once and with more intense and unreasonable over-regulation, there may be a future when Mercedes Benz will not make V12 engines anymore.
This is also happening in Formula 1 motorsport as well. From V10 engines, we've now gone to 2.4 liter V8 engines.........and by 2014, there is a proposal from the FIA that will now require F1 teams to use V6 turbo engines
Damn, too much interference from eco-terrorists like Greenpeace.
F1 engine downsizing = MAJOR FAIL
#77
Lexus Test Driver
... because it was mentioned in the oversight report on the CAFE standards. The safety issue arises because in order to raise mpg, manufacturers will be incentivized to produce more superlight mini-cars which are less safe, according to the NHTSA.
#78
Forum Administrator
iTrader: (2)
Guys please drop the "childish" line of commentary and callouts.... Keep this on the topic being debated and not the people posting.
#79
Lexus Fanatic
We've been hearing Boy-Crying-Wolf and Chicken-Little/Sky-is-Falling stuff of $10 gas prices here in the U.S. for years now.....it's nothing new. And, despite all the turmoil and war in OPEC countries, Gulf Coast storms and oil-spills, tanker accidents, earthquakes, price manipulation by speculators, so-called oil-company "greed", refinery-capacity issues.....you name it, the fact is that, at least in the U.S., we've never been anywhere near $10. And, though admittedly no one has a crystal ball, I would highly doubt, barring some truly worldwide and massive catastrophe, that we will see that kind of price anytime soon. In fact, here in America, the highest I can ever remember gas prices, hands-down, was for a very short period of time during and immediately after the spot-shortages caused by Hurricane Katrina. Spot-prices at some pumps were rising 50-75 cents a day, and reached close to $6 (perhaps $7 in CA). But that was only for a few days, and some State Attorney-Generals, from special hot-line tips set up for the public to report possible gouging, quickly stepped in.
So, for people to say "they knew this was coming"........well, IMO, barring some unknown huge worldwide event, no, we don't know that.
#80
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The whole U.S. economy will collapse long before gas prices hit $10/gal, which is why that whole thread is merely a theoretical paper argument. Look what happened in 2007/8 after the economy crashed. Demand fell and prices dropped from whatever they were at the time $3/4 per gallon down below $2. I should have taken photos because I knew it'd be a long time before we ever saw prices like those again.
And if prices really do hit that high, believe me consumers will be DEMANDING highly efficient vehicles, and whomever is best able to provide them will be a big winner. No government regulations are needed. I agree with some subtle nudging here and there, as already stated.
Side note: I'm driving a BMW 335d loaner this week, while BMW tries to figure out why the heck the top keeps locking up on my E93. This car is fantastic. I'm totally smitten with it. Same engine as my wife's X5d, minus 1500 lbs of weight and an AWD system bogging it down. The torque blows me away, and it gets 36+ mpg highway. Yes please, more cars like these! If rumors are to be believed, BMW will be bringing not just a 335d back for the new F30 3-series, but also a 320d which should be able to get in the 40 mpg range highway. Even that won't be enough to satisfy these fuel regs though. Not hardly.
And if prices really do hit that high, believe me consumers will be DEMANDING highly efficient vehicles, and whomever is best able to provide them will be a big winner. No government regulations are needed. I agree with some subtle nudging here and there, as already stated.
Side note: I'm driving a BMW 335d loaner this week, while BMW tries to figure out why the heck the top keeps locking up on my E93. This car is fantastic. I'm totally smitten with it. Same engine as my wife's X5d, minus 1500 lbs of weight and an AWD system bogging it down. The torque blows me away, and it gets 36+ mpg highway. Yes please, more cars like these! If rumors are to be believed, BMW will be bringing not just a 335d back for the new F30 3-series, but also a 320d which should be able to get in the 40 mpg range highway. Even that won't be enough to satisfy these fuel regs though. Not hardly.
#81
Lexus Champion
and BTW -- just why do you think the 335d even exists in the US?
Major automakers such as General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) and Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500), which agreed to the new fuel standards when they were proposed by the Obama administration last year, are investing billions to develop new fuel-efficient cars and electric vehicles. "What we know is that consumers want higher fuel efficiency in their cars and trucks and GM is going to give that to them," said a statement from GM on Tuesday. "While the requirements are aggressive, we intend to pursue them vigorously."
http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/28/auto...P_LN&hpt=hp_t3
Last edited by bagwell; 08-28-12 at 06:42 PM.
#82
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As I've said about fifteen times now, I think the government nudging the market in the right direction is a GOOD thing, but that the timeline is way too aggressive way too soon and is just going to cause more problems than it's worth.
#83
Lexus Test Driver
LOL that's what they said about $100/bbl crude oil.
and BTW -- just why do you think the 335d even exists in the US?
Major automakers such as General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) and Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500), which agreed to the new fuel standards when they were proposed by the Obama administration last year, are investing billions to develop new fuel-efficient cars and electric vehicles. "What we know is that consumers want higher fuel efficiency in their cars and trucks and GM is going to give that to them," said a statement from GM on Tuesday. "While the requirements are aggressive, we intend to pursue them vigorously."
http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/28/auto...P_LN&hpt=hp_t3
and BTW -- just why do you think the 335d even exists in the US?
Major automakers such as General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) and Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500), which agreed to the new fuel standards when they were proposed by the Obama administration last year, are investing billions to develop new fuel-efficient cars and electric vehicles. "What we know is that consumers want higher fuel efficiency in their cars and trucks and GM is going to give that to them," said a statement from GM on Tuesday. "While the requirements are aggressive, we intend to pursue them vigorously."
http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/28/auto...P_LN&hpt=hp_t3
#84
Lexus Champion
BTW - the 335d is dead in the US, right?
Last edited by bagwell; 08-29-12 at 05:12 AM.
#85
Lexus Test Driver
The whole U.S. economy will collapse long before gas prices hit $10/gal, which is why that whole thread is merely a theoretical paper argument. Look what happened in 2007/8 after the economy crashed. Demand fell and prices dropped from whatever they were at the time $3/4 per gallon down below $2. I should have taken photos because I knew it'd be a long time before we ever saw prices like those again.
And if prices really do hit that high, believe me consumers will be DEMANDING highly efficient vehicles, and whomever is best able to provide them will be a big winner. No government regulations are needed. I agree with some subtle nudging here and there, as already stated.
Side note: I'm driving a BMW 335d loaner this week, while BMW tries to figure out why the heck the top keeps locking up on my E93. This car is fantastic. I'm totally smitten with it. Same engine as my wife's X5d, minus 1500 lbs of weight and an AWD system bogging it down. The torque blows me away, and it gets 36+ mpg highway. Yes please, more cars like these! If rumors are to be believed, BMW will be bringing not just a 335d back for the new F30 3-series, but also a 320d which should be able to get in the 40 mpg range highway. Even that won't be enough to satisfy these fuel regs though. Not hardly.
And if prices really do hit that high, believe me consumers will be DEMANDING highly efficient vehicles, and whomever is best able to provide them will be a big winner. No government regulations are needed. I agree with some subtle nudging here and there, as already stated.
Side note: I'm driving a BMW 335d loaner this week, while BMW tries to figure out why the heck the top keeps locking up on my E93. This car is fantastic. I'm totally smitten with it. Same engine as my wife's X5d, minus 1500 lbs of weight and an AWD system bogging it down. The torque blows me away, and it gets 36+ mpg highway. Yes please, more cars like these! If rumors are to be believed, BMW will be bringing not just a 335d back for the new F30 3-series, but also a 320d which should be able to get in the 40 mpg range highway. Even that won't be enough to satisfy these fuel regs though. Not hardly.
I been hearing about “$5 gas” for more than 5 years now and have not seen it. And much like your post noted, after it peaked, it crashed down into the $1.50’s, I think I even recall $1.47 around here and then for a good year or 2, it was in the $2.xx and low $3’s.
Those wanting to push their agenda, whatever it may be from green energy to hybrids use this fear mongering over and over again to freak people out and buy into “their way of thinking”.
How many people did a knee jerk reaction the last time gas went up and bought a small high mpg car, just to see gas at $1.60 later.
The sky is not falling, people need to quit panicking every time a micro trend develops and we will make progress in both technology and MPG over the next 20 years but the thought that it’s all going to happen overnight and using fear to change the markets is ridiculous.
#86
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Another good post….
I been hearing about “$5 gas” for more than 5 years now and have not seen it. And much like your post noted, after it peaked, it crashed down into the $1.50’s, I think I even recall $1.47 around here and then for a good year or 2, it was in the $2.xx and low $3’s.
Those wanting to push their agenda, whatever it may be from green energy to hybrids use this fear mongering over and over again to freak people out and buy into “their way of thinking”.
How many people did a knee jerk reaction the last time gas went up and bought a small high mpg car, just to see gas at $1.60 later.
The sky is not falling, people need to quit panicking every time a micro trend develops and we will make progress in both technology and MPG over the next 20 years but the thought that it’s all going to happen overnight and using fear to change the markets is ridiculous.
I been hearing about “$5 gas” for more than 5 years now and have not seen it. And much like your post noted, after it peaked, it crashed down into the $1.50’s, I think I even recall $1.47 around here and then for a good year or 2, it was in the $2.xx and low $3’s.
Those wanting to push their agenda, whatever it may be from green energy to hybrids use this fear mongering over and over again to freak people out and buy into “their way of thinking”.
How many people did a knee jerk reaction the last time gas went up and bought a small high mpg car, just to see gas at $1.60 later.
The sky is not falling, people need to quit panicking every time a micro trend develops and we will make progress in both technology and MPG over the next 20 years but the thought that it’s all going to happen overnight and using fear to change the markets is ridiculous.
As I stated before there seems to be an "out" clause that can be used in case these goals are not attainable by most. Also note that CAFE standards and MPG are not the same....a CAFE standard of 55 MPG could equal 40 MPG EPA....weird I know....
BTW here is what the car makers said...nuff said They state its tough but they can appreciate the singular goal and it will spur innovation. VW was the main stand out completely opposed to it but have you seen a new Jetta/Passat recently
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...light-vehicles
Reactions to the new standards
The long-awaited federal fuel efficiency standards were released today. Here are some official reactions to the 54.5 mpg fleet average for U.S vehicles by 2025.
Volkswagen Group of America:
"Volkswagen Group of America (VW) continues to support a single national standard for greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions regulation for 2017-25. However, VW did not endorse the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) in part because it believed the compliance burdens were not equitably shared across the industry. Following an initial review, the Final Rule reflects the NPRM by imposing very high GHG reductions on passenger cars, and much lower reductions on light trucks. VW continues to believe that this places an unfair burden on manufacturers focused primarily on passenger cars -- the segment of the fleet already delivering to consumers the most fuel efficient, low CO2 emitting vehicles -- and fails to achieve an equitable burden across the full range of light-duty vehicles. In addition, the Final Rule grants valuable compliance credits to certain fuel-saving technologies while failing to equitably recognize the environmental benefits of others."
Ford and Chrysler responded through the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers:
“The Auto Alliance has called for a single, national program because conflicting requirements from several regulatory bodies raise costs, ultimately taking money out of consumers' pockets and hurting sales. We all want to get more fuel-efficient autos on our roads, and a single, national program with a strong midterm review helps us get closer to that shared goal."
Toyota Motor Corp.:
“As we have said all along, the standards pose a formidable challenge for our engineers and product planners. But our overriding objective has been to avoid state-by-state regulation of fuel economy and greenhouse gas regulations. The agreement reached last year, and the regulations finalized today, are a step in the right direction toward this goal.”
General Motors Co.:
“While the requirements are aggressive, we intend to pursue them vigorously by utilizing our strong history of innovation and technology development. As the rule also provides, however, further assessments and reviews will be undertaken to see if the underlying assumptions used to set the fuel economy and greenhouse gas requirements are achievable and realistic in the years well into the future.”
Adam Lee, chairman of Lee Auto Malls of Maine:
"As a third-generation auto dealer, I can say with absolute confidence that my customers want cars, trucks and SUVs that go farther on a tank of gas. I support the 54.5 mpg standard because it will keep American automakers competitive in the world market, it will keep my customers happy, and it will help me to sell even more cars. Automakers, consumers and consumer experts, national security leaders and environmentalists all back the standards because they will save families money, cut America's oil dependence, drive greater innovation in the auto industry, and improve our environment."
UAW President Bob King:
"These new standards will help propel the auto industry forward by giving American families long-term relief from volatile fuel prices. Lowering the total cost of driving will make automobiles more affordable and expand the market for new vehicles. The standards will also provide certainty for manufacturers in planning their investments and creating jobs in the auto industry as they add more fuel-saving technology to their vehicles. Bringing this additional content to market requires more engineers and more factory workers, expanding employment in the industry."
Frances Beinecke, president of the Natural Resources Defense Council:
“Everybody is a winner today. Motorists win because they will have much more fuel-efficient cars to drive, thus saving thousands of dollars at the gas pump every year. The auto industry -- and its workers -- win because these standards will spur the creation of thousands of new jobs as well as state-of-the-art vehicles that go nearly twice as far on the same gallon of gasoline.”
Michelle Robinson, director of the clean vehicles program for the Union of Concerned Scientists:
“This is truly a watershed moment. Twenty years from now we'll be looking back on this as the day we chose innovation over stagnation. These standards will protect consumers from high gas prices, curb global warming pollution, cut our oil use, and create new jobs in the American auto industry and around the nation.”
U.S. Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich.:
“Of critical importance in the standard is the mid-term review, which will allow all parties to take a step back and reevaluate, making necessary adjustments. In addition, the flexibilities built into the program are of the utmost importance. Finally, and most importantly, this is one national standard. A patchwork of different standards would have been a disaster for the economy.”
Mark Cooper, director of research, Consumer Federation of America:
"This is not only a big win for consumers, it is vital to the U.S. auto industry and the single most important thing we can do to end America's addiction to oil - something President George W. Bush called “a serious problem" - and to improve our national energy security. The many benefits of this policy are so clear that is has garnered widespread support from the public, automakers, auto workers, national security experts, public health advocates and environmentalists."
Erika Nielsen, director of marketing at BorgWarner Inc.:
“Automakers are looking for solutions that provide better fuel economy and reduce emissions while maintaining performance. That means new opportunities for our company, because our turbochargers, variable cam timing, dual clutch transmission modules and other powertrain technologies can help provide cleaner vehicles while maintaining or improving performance.”
Jake Fisher, director of auto testing for Consumer Reports magazine:
“Gasoline prices and fuel economy are clearly on consumers' minds when they go to buy a new vehicle. Our surveys show that consumers are interested in finding new ways to achieve that, like turning to hybrids and other alternatively fueled vehicles. The new fuel-efficiency standard will help provide consumers with a fleet of vehicles that will reduce the bill at the gas station.”
-- Compiled by Vince Bond and Philip Nussel
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/2012...#ixzz24wmhld89
The long-awaited federal fuel efficiency standards were released today. Here are some official reactions to the 54.5 mpg fleet average for U.S vehicles by 2025.
Volkswagen Group of America:
"Volkswagen Group of America (VW) continues to support a single national standard for greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions regulation for 2017-25. However, VW did not endorse the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) in part because it believed the compliance burdens were not equitably shared across the industry. Following an initial review, the Final Rule reflects the NPRM by imposing very high GHG reductions on passenger cars, and much lower reductions on light trucks. VW continues to believe that this places an unfair burden on manufacturers focused primarily on passenger cars -- the segment of the fleet already delivering to consumers the most fuel efficient, low CO2 emitting vehicles -- and fails to achieve an equitable burden across the full range of light-duty vehicles. In addition, the Final Rule grants valuable compliance credits to certain fuel-saving technologies while failing to equitably recognize the environmental benefits of others."
Ford and Chrysler responded through the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers:
“The Auto Alliance has called for a single, national program because conflicting requirements from several regulatory bodies raise costs, ultimately taking money out of consumers' pockets and hurting sales. We all want to get more fuel-efficient autos on our roads, and a single, national program with a strong midterm review helps us get closer to that shared goal."
Toyota Motor Corp.:
“As we have said all along, the standards pose a formidable challenge for our engineers and product planners. But our overriding objective has been to avoid state-by-state regulation of fuel economy and greenhouse gas regulations. The agreement reached last year, and the regulations finalized today, are a step in the right direction toward this goal.”
General Motors Co.:
“While the requirements are aggressive, we intend to pursue them vigorously by utilizing our strong history of innovation and technology development. As the rule also provides, however, further assessments and reviews will be undertaken to see if the underlying assumptions used to set the fuel economy and greenhouse gas requirements are achievable and realistic in the years well into the future.”
Adam Lee, chairman of Lee Auto Malls of Maine:
"As a third-generation auto dealer, I can say with absolute confidence that my customers want cars, trucks and SUVs that go farther on a tank of gas. I support the 54.5 mpg standard because it will keep American automakers competitive in the world market, it will keep my customers happy, and it will help me to sell even more cars. Automakers, consumers and consumer experts, national security leaders and environmentalists all back the standards because they will save families money, cut America's oil dependence, drive greater innovation in the auto industry, and improve our environment."
UAW President Bob King:
"These new standards will help propel the auto industry forward by giving American families long-term relief from volatile fuel prices. Lowering the total cost of driving will make automobiles more affordable and expand the market for new vehicles. The standards will also provide certainty for manufacturers in planning their investments and creating jobs in the auto industry as they add more fuel-saving technology to their vehicles. Bringing this additional content to market requires more engineers and more factory workers, expanding employment in the industry."
Frances Beinecke, president of the Natural Resources Defense Council:
“Everybody is a winner today. Motorists win because they will have much more fuel-efficient cars to drive, thus saving thousands of dollars at the gas pump every year. The auto industry -- and its workers -- win because these standards will spur the creation of thousands of new jobs as well as state-of-the-art vehicles that go nearly twice as far on the same gallon of gasoline.”
Michelle Robinson, director of the clean vehicles program for the Union of Concerned Scientists:
“This is truly a watershed moment. Twenty years from now we'll be looking back on this as the day we chose innovation over stagnation. These standards will protect consumers from high gas prices, curb global warming pollution, cut our oil use, and create new jobs in the American auto industry and around the nation.”
U.S. Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich.:
“Of critical importance in the standard is the mid-term review, which will allow all parties to take a step back and reevaluate, making necessary adjustments. In addition, the flexibilities built into the program are of the utmost importance. Finally, and most importantly, this is one national standard. A patchwork of different standards would have been a disaster for the economy.”
Mark Cooper, director of research, Consumer Federation of America:
"This is not only a big win for consumers, it is vital to the U.S. auto industry and the single most important thing we can do to end America's addiction to oil - something President George W. Bush called “a serious problem" - and to improve our national energy security. The many benefits of this policy are so clear that is has garnered widespread support from the public, automakers, auto workers, national security experts, public health advocates and environmentalists."
Erika Nielsen, director of marketing at BorgWarner Inc.:
“Automakers are looking for solutions that provide better fuel economy and reduce emissions while maintaining performance. That means new opportunities for our company, because our turbochargers, variable cam timing, dual clutch transmission modules and other powertrain technologies can help provide cleaner vehicles while maintaining or improving performance.”
Jake Fisher, director of auto testing for Consumer Reports magazine:
“Gasoline prices and fuel economy are clearly on consumers' minds when they go to buy a new vehicle. Our surveys show that consumers are interested in finding new ways to achieve that, like turning to hybrids and other alternatively fueled vehicles. The new fuel-efficiency standard will help provide consumers with a fleet of vehicles that will reduce the bill at the gas station.”
-- Compiled by Vince Bond and Philip Nussel
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/2012...#ixzz24wmhld89
#88
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Chrysler CEO says V8s will be as "rare as white flies" under new EPA fuel economy standards
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/...-fuel-economy/
Did the President just kill the muscle car?
Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne told the Detroit Free Press that V8-powered cars like his company’s Dodge Challenger will become as “rare as white flies” under new fuel efficiency standards announced by the Obama administration yesterday.
The new regulations, which will require a fleet wide fuel economy average of 54.5 mpg by the year 2025 will “change the way the industry operates” and means that automakers must deploy significantly new technologies and must change the way cars are designed, according to Marchionne. "We are struggling with some big choices we need to make," he said.
Chrysler officially supports the new targets, and Marchionne believes they can be met, but the company currently lacks any high mileage hybrid or battery-powered cars in its lineup while offering four popular vehicles from its SRT high-performance division that are powered by a supercharged Hemi V8 engine and get 17 mpg combined or less.
Next year, the Fiat brand will begin selling a low-volume electric version of its 500 microcar, but Chrysler’s further efforts in the alternative fuel arena are unclear. Less so is the introduction later this year of the 640 hp V10-powered SRT Viper supercar, which sounds like it could end up being the only thing rarer than a white fly.
Get ‘em while they last.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/...#ixzz24z5QkaXa
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/...-fuel-economy/
Did the President just kill the muscle car?
Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne told the Detroit Free Press that V8-powered cars like his company’s Dodge Challenger will become as “rare as white flies” under new fuel efficiency standards announced by the Obama administration yesterday.
The new regulations, which will require a fleet wide fuel economy average of 54.5 mpg by the year 2025 will “change the way the industry operates” and means that automakers must deploy significantly new technologies and must change the way cars are designed, according to Marchionne. "We are struggling with some big choices we need to make," he said.
Chrysler officially supports the new targets, and Marchionne believes they can be met, but the company currently lacks any high mileage hybrid or battery-powered cars in its lineup while offering four popular vehicles from its SRT high-performance division that are powered by a supercharged Hemi V8 engine and get 17 mpg combined or less.
Next year, the Fiat brand will begin selling a low-volume electric version of its 500 microcar, but Chrysler’s further efforts in the alternative fuel arena are unclear. Less so is the introduction later this year of the 640 hp V10-powered SRT Viper supercar, which sounds like it could end up being the only thing rarer than a white fly.
Get ‘em while they last.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/...#ixzz24z5QkaXa
#89
Guest
Posts: n/a
SHOCKING Fox news doesn't like the President nor the legislation. And Chrysler isn't exactly who I would quote since they clearly need help running a business..and help by the government Guess who has helped FIat
Ford and Chrysler responded through the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers:
“The Auto Alliance has called for a single, national program because conflicting requirements from several regulatory bodies raise costs, ultimately taking money out of consumers' pockets and hurting sales. We all want to get more fuel-efficient autos on our roads, and a single, national program with a strong midterm review helps us get closer to that shared goal."
“The Auto Alliance has called for a single, national program because conflicting requirements from several regulatory bodies raise costs, ultimately taking money out of consumers' pockets and hurting sales. We all want to get more fuel-efficient autos on our roads, and a single, national program with a strong midterm review helps us get closer to that shared goal."