2014 gs f
09-11-12, 11:56 PM
#76
Rominl and 1Sicklex both have good points but I think they're not mutually exclusive :
The new GS-F MAY have slightly less absolute horsepower and torque compared to the M5/AMG/RS6 but due to its lighter, more agile chassis and its superior suspension tuning, its performance parameters will still be superior to the Germans
Specifically better 0-60,0-100,1/4 mile times, better lateral grip, faster slalom and track times.
So those paper warriors can have it both ways : better magazine numbers to lord it over their neighbors who overpaid for the German cars and actual real-life driving enjoyment that is superior to the M's/AMG's/RS's.
And probably not get slapped with a gas guzzler tax due to the superior fuel efficiency of the GS-F.
The new GS-F MAY have slightly less absolute horsepower and torque compared to the M5/AMG/RS6 but due to its lighter, more agile chassis and its superior suspension tuning, its performance parameters will still be superior to the Germans
Specifically better 0-60,0-100,1/4 mile times, better lateral grip, faster slalom and track times.
So those paper warriors can have it both ways : better magazine numbers to lord it over their neighbors who overpaid for the German cars and actual real-life driving enjoyment that is superior to the M's/AMG's/RS's.
And probably not get slapped with a gas guzzler tax due to the superior fuel efficiency of the GS-F.
my point has always been, how is lexus going to sell the car? against 550i and e550? or against m5 and e63? you can throw all the quarter and slalom times at the buyers but most of them would just yawn over them because most of them just don't care. all i am saying is it's going to be very hard to market the vehicle to a already very tiny crowd. i said similar things on lfa before. i want the car to sell well, why wouldn't i? but it's going to be one hell of a fight for lexus to convince m5 and e63 buyers to look this way, unlike what lexus did with the isf (which is comparable is every aspect).
and don't even mention about gas guzzler tax. i don't mean to offend anyone, but series buyers who is ready to throw 100k on a car, they would really care less about the 3% gas guzzler. just like when you go ask any lfa owners if they feel hurt about the gas guzzler they paid
09-12-12, 12:30 AM
#77
Lexus Test Driver
At least in the rendering, it's amazing how much better the front of the GS looks when they fill out the front corner edges. That IMO is the new GS's biggest design flaw- it's missing body right where body needs to be.
09-12-12, 12:48 AM
#78
I think the most important factor here is the weight. The new F10 weighs 400lbs more than the old E60. Lexus's new 13 GS weighs virtually the same as 2011. 461hp should be sufficient.
In fact Audi proved less is more in a recent Car and Driver comparo between the 13 Audi S6, 12 MBZ E 63 AMG, and the 13 BMW M5. The Audi bested both of them despite giving up 98hp and 140hp respectively
In fact Audi proved less is more in a recent Car and Driver comparo between the 13 Audi S6, 12 MBZ E 63 AMG, and the 13 BMW M5. The Audi bested both of them despite giving up 98hp and 140hp respectively
09-12-12, 04:21 AM
#79
Henry does have a point that from a marketing and competition level, anything less than 500 hp could have a negative affect on sales of a car in this segment.
I've been car shopping recently. Salesmen don't talk much about handling. When they do its secondary to power. They talk about 0-60 numbers.
People who buy cars like this want bragging rights. Like little boys comparing toys. I think its silly but we live in a superficial society and people are concerned with image. Just being able to say your car makes 500 hp is a big deal to boys.
I'd never say that power was a negative but I'm not one of the boys who chase it. I'm definitely not one of the boys who needs to express my manhood through toys. For me, 460 hp would be marvelous as I care much about the total driving experience. Heck, I'm happy with the power I have now.
But if Lexus wants to maximise sales, the magic number is 500.
They may not care about horsepower wars with competitors. They could have easily made the LFA with 600+ hp but they chose to focus on the total driving experience. That tells me there won't be a 500 hp GSF.
I've been car shopping recently. Salesmen don't talk much about handling. When they do its secondary to power. They talk about 0-60 numbers.
People who buy cars like this want bragging rights. Like little boys comparing toys. I think its silly but we live in a superficial society and people are concerned with image. Just being able to say your car makes 500 hp is a big deal to boys.
I'd never say that power was a negative but I'm not one of the boys who chase it. I'm definitely not one of the boys who needs to express my manhood through toys. For me, 460 hp would be marvelous as I care much about the total driving experience. Heck, I'm happy with the power I have now.
But if Lexus wants to maximise sales, the magic number is 500.
They may not care about horsepower wars with competitors. They could have easily made the LFA with 600+ hp but they chose to focus on the total driving experience. That tells me there won't be a 500 hp GSF.
09-12-12, 04:26 AM
#80
Lexus Test Driver
We can also speculate on the following about the GS F:
- will there be an additional mode above Sport+?
- how will the interior be differentiated from the "regular" GS F-Sport?
- what kind of rubber? on 20" rims?
- will LDH/DRS be standard?
- electronic gauge cluster from LFA?
- 8 speed transmission? Dual clutch?
- stacked quad pipes?
- colors?
Again, I can't wait. This will be my milestone birthday gift to myself.
- will there be an additional mode above Sport+?
- how will the interior be differentiated from the "regular" GS F-Sport?
- what kind of rubber? on 20" rims?
- will LDH/DRS be standard?
- electronic gauge cluster from LFA?
- 8 speed transmission? Dual clutch?
- stacked quad pipes?
- colors?
Again, I can't wait. This will be my milestone birthday gift to myself.
09-12-12, 04:48 AM
#81
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Rominl and 1Sicklex both have good points but I think they're not mutually exclusive :
The new GS-F MAY have slightly less absolute horsepower and torque compared to the M5/AMG/RS6 but due to its lighter, more agile chassis and its superior suspension tuning, its performance parameters will still be superior to the Germans
Specifically better 0-60,0-100,1/4 mile times, better lateral grip, faster slalom and track times.
So those paper warriors can have it both ways : better magazine numbers to lord it over their neighbors who overpaid for the German cars and actual real-life driving enjoyment that is superior to the M's/AMG's/RS's.
And probably not get slapped with a gas guzzler tax due to the superior fuel efficiency of the GS-F.
The new GS-F MAY have slightly less absolute horsepower and torque compared to the M5/AMG/RS6 but due to its lighter, more agile chassis and its superior suspension tuning, its performance parameters will still be superior to the Germans
Specifically better 0-60,0-100,1/4 mile times, better lateral grip, faster slalom and track times.
So those paper warriors can have it both ways : better magazine numbers to lord it over their neighbors who overpaid for the German cars and actual real-life driving enjoyment that is superior to the M's/AMG's/RS's.
And probably not get slapped with a gas guzzler tax due to the superior fuel efficiency of the GS-F.
Henry does have a point that from a marketing and competition level, anything less than 500 hp could have a negative affect on sales of a car in this segment.
I've been car shopping recently. Salesmen don't talk much about handling. When they do its secondary to power. They talk about 0-60 numbers.
People who buy cars like this want bragging rights. Like little boys comparing toys. I think its silly but we live in a superficial society and people are concerned with image. Just being able to say your car makes 500 hp is a big deal to boys.
I'd never say that power was a negative but I'm not one of the boys who chase it. I'm definitely not one of the boys who needs to express my manhood through toys. For me, 460 hp would be marvelous as I care much about the total driving experience. Heck, I'm happy with the power I have now.
But if Lexus wants to maximise sales, the magic number is 500.
They may not care about horsepower wars with competitors. They could have easily made the LFA with 600+ hp but they chose to focus on the total driving experience. That tells me there won't be a 500 hp GSF.
I've been car shopping recently. Salesmen don't talk much about handling. When they do its secondary to power. They talk about 0-60 numbers.
People who buy cars like this want bragging rights. Like little boys comparing toys. I think its silly but we live in a superficial society and people are concerned with image. Just being able to say your car makes 500 hp is a big deal to boys.
I'd never say that power was a negative but I'm not one of the boys who chase it. I'm definitely not one of the boys who needs to express my manhood through toys. For me, 460 hp would be marvelous as I care much about the total driving experience. Heck, I'm happy with the power I have now.
But if Lexus wants to maximise sales, the magic number is 500.
They may not care about horsepower wars with competitors. They could have easily made the LFA with 600+ hp but they chose to focus on the total driving experience. That tells me there won't be a 500 hp GSF.
Most M3 owners will tell you that the ISF is slower than an M3 because they say/read an article in a magazine or something similar on youtube. Its been years from the initial launch, the IS-F has grown up to be a proven faster car than its M3 rival, but nobody talks about it. If Lexus is looking for this car to really sell, they need to go BIG. Shock the market with a platform that is just stunning and awe inspiring. If the GS-F were to be faster than the new M5, it would be a huge splash in the water and every car magazine would be fighting over the chance to compare the two.
Last edited by MRxSLAYx; 09-12-12 at 05:01 AM.
09-12-12, 05:27 AM
#82
Pole Position
The IS-F while ground-breaking for Lexus, was based on old suspension and chassis principles and never won any handling comparos vs the M3.
The new GS tellingly didn't gain any weight over the previous generations despite its increased dimensions and has convincingly beaten the 5 series in head-to-head handling comparisons AND it is the first mainstream Lexus platform built from ground-up that incorporates Lexus' new ride/steering/handling DNA.
Firstly, I don't believe for a second that the GS-F will have only 50 more hp than the IS-F. There will be a significant hp/torque increase over the ISF. Second, Lexus new philosophy is about building in lightness rather than just pumping power. I suspect the GS-F will incorporate significant chassis lightening tech from the LFA eg carbon fiber, aluminium and ultra high strength steel sort of like the ISF-CCR. As long as the weight-to-hp/torque ratio is comparable to the M5, the GSF will be a viable competitor.
The new GS tellingly didn't gain any weight over the previous generations despite its increased dimensions and has convincingly beaten the 5 series in head-to-head handling comparisons AND it is the first mainstream Lexus platform built from ground-up that incorporates Lexus' new ride/steering/handling DNA.
Firstly, I don't believe for a second that the GS-F will have only 50 more hp than the IS-F. There will be a significant hp/torque increase over the ISF. Second, Lexus new philosophy is about building in lightness rather than just pumping power. I suspect the GS-F will incorporate significant chassis lightening tech from the LFA eg carbon fiber, aluminium and ultra high strength steel sort of like the ISF-CCR. As long as the weight-to-hp/torque ratio is comparable to the M5, the GSF will be a viable competitor.
09-12-12, 06:12 AM
#83
Lead Lap
In this segment they NEED to be at least in the right ballpark to be taken seriously as a contender. Audi can get away with 420hp in an S6 because they still have an RS line they can dangle the carrot with even if they never make a RS6.
It's all in the badge perception. Lexus has nothing between the F-Sport (no hp gain) and F (M competitor) so to come out with a GS-F with 460hp they'd be laughed out of the stage even before any serious M or AMG buyers pick up a brochure. At 460hp even at thousands less than an M5 only the most devout Lexus performance fans will take one home. And honestly, how many of those exist in the grand scheme of things? It will never be the "dream car", the car that people put up as wallpapers on their work computers dreaming of the day they take delivery of one after the big bonus they'll get if they work their ***** off for the next few years. When you get to this segment it's all about show-offey numbers and the fact their big sedan can go faster than yours, even more so in this segment than the M3/C63/IS-F group. Unless there's a huge weight advantage to the GS-F you'd be able to show off all you want UNTIL the day your neighbor or co-worker drives in with an M5 or E63. That aspect is a huge part of what gives the M5 it's allure. Lexus fans will bark "reliability" all we want but reliability isn't sexy. Reliability doesn't sell posters and most importantly doesn't make people with wads of cash drool in the showroom.
CTS-V owners would laugh. Even C63's with AMG performance packs would be able to heartily chuckle at the GS-F. Lexus needs better numbers or they're doomed to fail in this arena.
It's all in the badge perception. Lexus has nothing between the F-Sport (no hp gain) and F (M competitor) so to come out with a GS-F with 460hp they'd be laughed out of the stage even before any serious M or AMG buyers pick up a brochure. At 460hp even at thousands less than an M5 only the most devout Lexus performance fans will take one home. And honestly, how many of those exist in the grand scheme of things? It will never be the "dream car", the car that people put up as wallpapers on their work computers dreaming of the day they take delivery of one after the big bonus they'll get if they work their ***** off for the next few years. When you get to this segment it's all about show-offey numbers and the fact their big sedan can go faster than yours, even more so in this segment than the M3/C63/IS-F group. Unless there's a huge weight advantage to the GS-F you'd be able to show off all you want UNTIL the day your neighbor or co-worker drives in with an M5 or E63. That aspect is a huge part of what gives the M5 it's allure. Lexus fans will bark "reliability" all we want but reliability isn't sexy. Reliability doesn't sell posters and most importantly doesn't make people with wads of cash drool in the showroom.
CTS-V owners would laugh. Even C63's with AMG performance packs would be able to heartily chuckle at the GS-F. Lexus needs better numbers or they're doomed to fail in this arena.
09-12-12, 07:24 AM
#84
I think the most important factor here is the weight. The new F10 weighs 400lbs more than the old E60. Lexus's new 13 GS weighs virtually the same as 2011. 461hp should be sufficient.
In fact Audi proved less is more in a recent Car and Driver comparo between the 13 Audi S6, 12 MBZ E 63 AMG, and the 13 BMW M5. The Audi bested both of them despite giving up 98hp and 140hp respectively
In fact Audi proved less is more in a recent Car and Driver comparo between the 13 Audi S6, 12 MBZ E 63 AMG, and the 13 BMW M5. The Audi bested both of them despite giving up 98hp and 140hp respectively
Oh wait, S6 beats competition in tests because RS6 exists... if RS6 didnt exist, then everyone would laugh histerically at S6.
09-12-12, 07:33 AM
#85
Advanced
While more is better I would be fine with mid to high 400's if the weight is kept in check. I am the exact demographic for htis car, we love our USB IS-F but it is a bit tight for a family of four, the GS would be the perfect trade-in for us. We looked at the M3 and C63 when shopping the IS-F, each has thier plus and minus but in the end we chose the reliability of the lexus over the Germans while getting 9/10ths of the performance. A GS-F at around $75-80k would be the next logical step for us.
09-12-12, 07:42 AM
#86
Lexus Test Driver
While more is better I would be fine with mid to high 400's if the weight is kept in check. I am the exact demographic for htis car, we love our USB IS-F but it is a bit tight for a family of four, the GS would be the perfect trade-in for us. We looked at the M3 and C63 when shopping the IS-F, each has thier plus and minus but in the end we chose the reliability of the lexus over the Germans while getting 9/10ths of the performance. A GS-F at around $75-80k would be the next logical step for us.
09-12-12, 08:03 AM
#88
Disclaimer: These are strictly my opinions 
I am not making excuses for the GS F (if it does turn out to be low on power) but really, there is going to come a point where the horsepower war is not sustainable. I think Toyota has acknowledged this and continues to make refinements and changes to powertrains to be competitive, but is no longer aiming to produce the highest horsepower engines.
When everyone has a 550hp TT V8 and goes 0-60 in 4 seconds, does 580hp and 0-60 in 3.9 seconds really feel that different? Or 600hp and 0-60 in 3.8 seconds? Not really, and the number of people who would care about such things is insignificant.
I mentioned this a while ago, but I think it will be the "total package" that comes to define iconic cars in the future: Cars with sharp driving dynamics, great handling, intuitive driver feedback and yes - lots of power. Right now, almost every major brand has a ~300HP V6 , a V8 with ~400 horsepower, etc., but what continues to define certain cars as good or bad is the overall package. Infiniti M56 came out with more horsepower than 550i or E550...did anyone care? A6 3.0T has more horsepower than 528i, 535i, and E350...but still sells at a fractional volume of the 5 or E. C63 will lay waste to an IS F or M3 in a straight line...but BMW and Lexus still seem to be moving plenty of both. CTS-V has made the M5 and E63 look like little girls since 2009 with 552hp, but the Benz and Bimmer are still considered class kings. I digress.
My point here is two-fold: 1) Horsepower is really not a defining factor for a lot of people and 2) It seems like every manufacturer does things a little differently to cater to their audience. Lexus will be the only one in the segment with a N/A V8. It will also have a unique look and attitude. Judging by Lexus’ recent achievements, the GS F might also feel significantly more athletic and driver-oriented than E63, M5, S6, etc. Right now, we just don’t know what they will deliver, but it is too soon to count them out as irrelevant.
Also worth noting: I live in an area where soccer moms and old ladies drive X5 M, ML 63, M5, E63, CLS63, S65, Alpina B7, S8, etc. Do you think they have any idea how much horsepower is under the hood? No - these are wealthy people who view M/AMG/RS/S/F/V as a top trim level in the product line and are accustomed to having the best of the best. They walk into a dealership and ask for the “best” E class and leave with an E63, or they specifically want an M car because of the cache that goes along with it, or they want the S6 because it has the bigger wheels and carbon fiber trim. These are real scenarios that I have seen play out time and time again. There is room for Lexus to play and win in this market.
I would personally rather have a 460hp car with superior driving dynamics that goes 0-60 in 4.6 seconds vs. one that has 560hp, goes 0-60 in 3.9 seconds and drives like a rhino with a jet pack. Such people do exist. I think folks here are getting way too caught up in horsepower. Yes, I would like to see the GS F around 550hp just for the sake of being competitive, but I am actually more interested in seeing Lexus deliver a unique formula – something like an FRS-formula applied to the GS F.
In Lexus’ own words, F represents performance – not acceleration. Performance encompasses many areas, including acceleration, which is just one piece of the puzzle.
I am not making excuses for the GS F (if it does turn out to be low on power) but really, there is going to come a point where the horsepower war is not sustainable. I think Toyota has acknowledged this and continues to make refinements and changes to powertrains to be competitive, but is no longer aiming to produce the highest horsepower engines.
When everyone has a 550hp TT V8 and goes 0-60 in 4 seconds, does 580hp and 0-60 in 3.9 seconds really feel that different? Or 600hp and 0-60 in 3.8 seconds? Not really, and the number of people who would care about such things is insignificant.
I mentioned this a while ago, but I think it will be the "total package" that comes to define iconic cars in the future: Cars with sharp driving dynamics, great handling, intuitive driver feedback and yes - lots of power. Right now, almost every major brand has a ~300HP V6 , a V8 with ~400 horsepower, etc., but what continues to define certain cars as good or bad is the overall package. Infiniti M56 came out with more horsepower than 550i or E550...did anyone care? A6 3.0T has more horsepower than 528i, 535i, and E350...but still sells at a fractional volume of the 5 or E. C63 will lay waste to an IS F or M3 in a straight line...but BMW and Lexus still seem to be moving plenty of both. CTS-V has made the M5 and E63 look like little girls since 2009 with 552hp, but the Benz and Bimmer are still considered class kings. I digress.
My point here is two-fold: 1) Horsepower is really not a defining factor for a lot of people and 2) It seems like every manufacturer does things a little differently to cater to their audience. Lexus will be the only one in the segment with a N/A V8. It will also have a unique look and attitude. Judging by Lexus’ recent achievements, the GS F might also feel significantly more athletic and driver-oriented than E63, M5, S6, etc. Right now, we just don’t know what they will deliver, but it is too soon to count them out as irrelevant.
Also worth noting: I live in an area where soccer moms and old ladies drive X5 M, ML 63, M5, E63, CLS63, S65, Alpina B7, S8, etc. Do you think they have any idea how much horsepower is under the hood? No - these are wealthy people who view M/AMG/RS/S/F/V as a top trim level in the product line and are accustomed to having the best of the best. They walk into a dealership and ask for the “best” E class and leave with an E63, or they specifically want an M car because of the cache that goes along with it, or they want the S6 because it has the bigger wheels and carbon fiber trim. These are real scenarios that I have seen play out time and time again. There is room for Lexus to play and win in this market.
I would personally rather have a 460hp car with superior driving dynamics that goes 0-60 in 4.6 seconds vs. one that has 560hp, goes 0-60 in 3.9 seconds and drives like a rhino with a jet pack. Such people do exist. I think folks here are getting way too caught up in horsepower. Yes, I would like to see the GS F around 550hp just for the sake of being competitive, but I am actually more interested in seeing Lexus deliver a unique formula – something like an FRS-formula applied to the GS F.
In Lexus’ own words, F represents performance – not acceleration. Performance encompasses many areas, including acceleration, which is just one piece of the puzzle.
Last edited by MPLexus301; 09-12-12 at 08:07 AM.
09-12-12, 08:21 AM
#89
Super Moderator
