2014 gs f
09-12-12, 05:16 PM
#122
p.s. handling does matter... or FR-S would not sell as much as it does...
09-12-12, 05:44 PM
#126
I just know I like fully loaded cars, if I can't afford it, I just won't buy one. Some folks have the opposite preference though.
09-12-12, 07:45 PM
#127
Pole Position
Disclaimer: These are strictly my opinions 
I am not making excuses for the GS F (if it does turn out to be low on power) but really, there is going to come a point where the horsepower war is not sustainable. I think Toyota has acknowledged this and continues to make refinements and changes to powertrains to be competitive, but is no longer aiming to produce the highest horsepower engines.
When everyone has a 550hp TT V8 and goes 0-60 in 4 seconds, does 580hp and 0-60 in 3.9 seconds really feel that different? Or 600hp and 0-60 in 3.8 seconds? Not really, and the number of people who would care about such things is insignificant.
I mentioned this a while ago, but I think it will be the "total package" that comes to define iconic cars in the future: Cars with sharp driving dynamics, great handling, intuitive driver feedback and yes - lots of power. Right now, almost every major brand has a ~300HP V6 , a V8 with ~400 horsepower, etc., but what continues to define certain cars as good or bad is the overall package. Infiniti M56 came out with more horsepower than 550i or E550...did anyone care? A6 3.0T has more horsepower than 528i, 535i, and E350...but still sells at a fractional volume of the 5 or E. C63 will lay waste to an IS F or M3 in a straight line...but BMW and Lexus still seem to be moving plenty of both. CTS-V has made the M5 and E63 look like little girls since 2009 with 552hp, but the Benz and Bimmer are still considered class kings. I digress.
My point here is two-fold: 1) Horsepower is really not a defining factor for a lot of people and 2) It seems like every manufacturer does things a little differently to cater to their audience. Lexus will be the only one in the segment with a N/A V8. It will also have a unique look and attitude. Judging by Lexus’ recent achievements, the GS F might also feel significantly more athletic and driver-oriented than E63, M5, S6, etc. Right now, we just don’t know what they will deliver, but it is too soon to count them out as irrelevant.
Also worth noting: I live in an area where soccer moms and old ladies drive X5 M, ML 63, M5, E63, CLS63, S65, Alpina B7, S8, etc. Do you think they have any idea how much horsepower is under the hood? No - these are wealthy people who view M/AMG/RS/S/F/V as a top trim level in the product line and are accustomed to having the best of the best. They walk into a dealership and ask for the “best” E class and leave with an E63, or they specifically want an M car because of the cache that goes along with it, or they want the S6 because it has the bigger wheels and carbon fiber trim. These are real scenarios that I have seen play out time and time again. There is room for Lexus to play and win in this market.
I would personally rather have a 460hp car with superior driving dynamics that goes 0-60 in 4.6 seconds vs. one that has 560hp, goes 0-60 in 3.9 seconds and drives like a rhino with a jet pack. Such people do exist. I think folks here are getting way too caught up in horsepower. Yes, I would like to see the GS F around 550hp just for the sake of being competitive, but I am actually more interested in seeing Lexus deliver a unique formula – something like an FRS-formula applied to the GS F.
In Lexus’ own words, F represents performance – not acceleration. Performance encompasses many areas, including acceleration, which is just one piece of the puzzle.
I am not making excuses for the GS F (if it does turn out to be low on power) but really, there is going to come a point where the horsepower war is not sustainable. I think Toyota has acknowledged this and continues to make refinements and changes to powertrains to be competitive, but is no longer aiming to produce the highest horsepower engines.
When everyone has a 550hp TT V8 and goes 0-60 in 4 seconds, does 580hp and 0-60 in 3.9 seconds really feel that different? Or 600hp and 0-60 in 3.8 seconds? Not really, and the number of people who would care about such things is insignificant.
I mentioned this a while ago, but I think it will be the "total package" that comes to define iconic cars in the future: Cars with sharp driving dynamics, great handling, intuitive driver feedback and yes - lots of power. Right now, almost every major brand has a ~300HP V6 , a V8 with ~400 horsepower, etc., but what continues to define certain cars as good or bad is the overall package. Infiniti M56 came out with more horsepower than 550i or E550...did anyone care? A6 3.0T has more horsepower than 528i, 535i, and E350...but still sells at a fractional volume of the 5 or E. C63 will lay waste to an IS F or M3 in a straight line...but BMW and Lexus still seem to be moving plenty of both. CTS-V has made the M5 and E63 look like little girls since 2009 with 552hp, but the Benz and Bimmer are still considered class kings. I digress.
My point here is two-fold: 1) Horsepower is really not a defining factor for a lot of people and 2) It seems like every manufacturer does things a little differently to cater to their audience. Lexus will be the only one in the segment with a N/A V8. It will also have a unique look and attitude. Judging by Lexus’ recent achievements, the GS F might also feel significantly more athletic and driver-oriented than E63, M5, S6, etc. Right now, we just don’t know what they will deliver, but it is too soon to count them out as irrelevant.
Also worth noting: I live in an area where soccer moms and old ladies drive X5 M, ML 63, M5, E63, CLS63, S65, Alpina B7, S8, etc. Do you think they have any idea how much horsepower is under the hood? No - these are wealthy people who view M/AMG/RS/S/F/V as a top trim level in the product line and are accustomed to having the best of the best. They walk into a dealership and ask for the “best” E class and leave with an E63, or they specifically want an M car because of the cache that goes along with it, or they want the S6 because it has the bigger wheels and carbon fiber trim. These are real scenarios that I have seen play out time and time again. There is room for Lexus to play and win in this market.
I would personally rather have a 460hp car with superior driving dynamics that goes 0-60 in 4.6 seconds vs. one that has 560hp, goes 0-60 in 3.9 seconds and drives like a rhino with a jet pack. Such people do exist. I think folks here are getting way too caught up in horsepower. Yes, I would like to see the GS F around 550hp just for the sake of being competitive, but I am actually more interested in seeing Lexus deliver a unique formula – something like an FRS-formula applied to the GS F.
In Lexus’ own words, F represents performance – not acceleration. Performance encompasses many areas, including acceleration, which is just one piece of the puzzle.
Perfectly encapsulated argument.
09-12-12, 08:48 PM
#128
Pole Position
And if looks matter to you and handling is not that important AND you think the 5 series looks better than the GS, why don't you just buy a 550i?
Last edited by natnut; 09-12-12 at 08:52 PM.
09-12-12, 10:44 PM
#129
Lexus Fanatic
I think although the Lexus GSF hp figures may not blow the Germans out of the water the GSF will be very well balanced and offer equal performance and driving experience . I am very happy to see this vehicle coming to market. It will expand the F Sport line, increase performance image, and offer the market a super sedan that is actually reliable. I do hope that the styling is a bit more aggressive than simply adding ISF style front fenders and exhaust. The ISF looks like an IS on steroids, whereas the pics I see for the GS seem a bit too tame. The front is aggressive enough but I think some blown fenders would add a lot. In the end I know Lexus will knock this out of the park. The always manage to do it. I have said it before and I will say it again, I love the direction Lexus is going.
09-12-12, 11:10 PM
#130
Pole Position
Here's my prediction :
the new GS-F when it comes out will own the M5 in almost every head-to-head comparison online and in the motoring magazines.
the new GS-F when it comes out will own the M5 in almost every head-to-head comparison online and in the motoring magazines.
Last edited by natnut; 09-13-12 at 12:46 AM.
09-12-12, 11:41 PM
#131
One way to shut people up about the hp figure would be if Lexus proved it laps the Nurburgring at a time very close or even faster than the Germans. The LFA is a whole other animal than the M5 group, but when specs were announced people were snickering about its hp figure. But then later we find out it destroys other cars with triple digit hp advantage with its lap times. That and amongst other things earned it tremendous respect, in my view anyways.
If the GS-F does that, while also providing a significant fuel savings perhaps, (was a factor in me choosing the IS-F, but who knows how much a factor that would be in that crowd,) there would be plenty of justification for not going into an hp war with the Germans.
In spite of my previous posts, I have absolutely no wish for Lexus to fail in this endeavor. On the contrary, nothing would satisfy me more than to see the GS-F be a total homerun for them. I eagerly see what they come out with and see how the market responds. I just would rather it not start off from the gate with a glaring handicap that causes it to stumble. Should that happen, all the work in developing the F performance brand image would take a major step back and would take that much longer to recover.
If the GS-F does that, while also providing a significant fuel savings perhaps, (was a factor in me choosing the IS-F, but who knows how much a factor that would be in that crowd,) there would be plenty of justification for not going into an hp war with the Germans.
In spite of my previous posts, I have absolutely no wish for Lexus to fail in this endeavor. On the contrary, nothing would satisfy me more than to see the GS-F be a total homerun for them. I eagerly see what they come out with and see how the market responds. I just would rather it not start off from the gate with a glaring handicap that causes it to stumble. Should that happen, all the work in developing the F performance brand image would take a major step back and would take that much longer to recover.
09-13-12, 04:53 AM
#132
Lexus have learned a lot from making the 1st gen ISF and the LFA. I have a feeling that the GSF will be far from disappointment. Dont even have to go that far, just take a look at the 4GS, who is laughing at it now ? I have not heard a single word from people that used to call Lexus a sofa on wheels. So, yeah the GSF may not completely destroy the germans, but it would be a pretty strong contender and probably cheaper and more reliable too.
09-13-12, 05:04 AM
#133
That's assuming the M5/E63 is faster than the GS-F. What if the GS-F came out and it was faster and handled better than both? Would the badge matter to you then?
And if looks matter to you and handling is not that important AND you think the 5 series looks better than the GS, why don't you just buy a 550i?
And if looks matter to you and handling is not that important AND you think the 5 series looks better than the GS, why don't you just buy a 550i?
The M5 and E63 AMG trim looks great.I like the style of both cars.
I wouldn't buy or lease any of the 3.
However,I'm seriously considering going back to leasing and just may go with a '14 535i or A6..
09-13-12, 08:37 AM
#134
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
... I would personally rather have a 460hp car with superior driving dynamics that goes 0-60 in 4.6 seconds vs. one that has 560hp, goes 0-60 in 3.9 seconds and drives like a rhino with a jet pack. Such people do exist. I think folks here are getting way too caught up in horsepower. Yes, I would like to see the GS F around 550hp just for the sake of being competitive, but I am actually more interested in seeing Lexus deliver a unique formula – something like an FRS-formula applied to the GS F.
if you know what i mean. 
there are people who lose cars like the frs and miata because of the balance, efficiency, and pure joy of driving them. there are people who get their jollies from roaring noise, burning rubber or blinding acceleration, and who often, in my experience, don't even know how to drive.
i'm really glad for example that lexus took the 4GS way up in driving dynamics, although of course like others i would have liked to have seen them bump the drivetrain some like the 8 speed auto at least.
i do not believe a gs-f needs to have over 500hp. but i believe it needs to look great without being overdone, and it needs to have even better handling and responsiveness.
09-13-12, 08:57 AM
#135
Lexus Fanatic
Yep. There sure are. That lesson was driven home, back in the 1960s and classic American 400 HP muscle-cars, with skyrocketing insurance-rates, especially for young single males. Those cars, launched and shifted accordingly (and if you wanted to tear up your drive-line), were drag-strip quick in a straight line...but, even with heavy-duty suspensions and sometimes-optional power-front disc brakes, showed little ability to do anything else but run the quarter-mile. On public roads, they had shown themselves to be quite dangerous in the hands of unskilled or immature drivers...which, among several other factors, was one of the isues that led to the demise of most of them in the early-70s. The later muscle cars, of course, which returned in the 90s and in the last decade, had much better suspensions and tires for that type of driving.
Last edited by mmarshall; 09-13-12 at 09:01 AM.