This is why maybe this fancy technology shouldn't be used in budget cars?

 

i dont understand what is that supposed to mean at all. People dont like 7s 0-60 vs 8.2? People dont like 10 MPG more? Better resale?

1.6l Turbo in Fusion is slower, gets 10 worse and costs more than non turbo. So whats the point?

 

Just do the math and check the cash register. Most of hybrid Camry's I see here in NYC are fleet vehicles, used for car service and taxi duties - in which case the price premium might be justified by fuel saving. Otherwise they aren't selling much.

Exactly my point, turbo engines in budget cars are stupid.

 

Not really, just your usual and expected cherry-picking of stats.

Consumer Reports:

City / Highway / Overall

Mazda6: 22 / 44 / 32 mpg
Camry: 19 / 41 / 27 mpg
Accord: 21 / 40 / 30 mpg
Altima: 21 / 44 / 31 mpg

That's Consumer Reports own independent and controlled city and highway fuel mileage tests. The 6 is best in class, which is not surprising considering it has one of the most advanced engines. The Camry brings up the rear.

 

They're not selling here either. In fact I just checked our local no-haggle Toyota dealership's pricing and the Camry Hybrids are indeed selling at or below invoice, which is unheard of vs the last-gen model. Tons of them sitting on the lots. Wow. Know what's selling like mad here? The new Honda Accord. Much nicer design imho also.

When hybrids were new and petrol powered cars were only getting low-20 MPG overall and 30-ish mpg highway, stepping up to a hybrid was a huge difference. But being able to get 30 mpg overall now and 40 mpg highway with no price premium at all with the latest gen of cars, many people are thinking twice about hybrids and if they're really worth it or not, and plenty are opting out, even those who have bought them before.

 

Are you sure the Accord is stealing Camry sales because of the hybrid or because the Accord is overall a compelling package? Talk about cherry picking facts.

I think many people are arguing against hybrids when "hybrid" is not ONE monilithic class.

Fact of the matter is, there are at least TWO different classes of hybrids :



Performance hybrids like the Porsche, Ferrari and even the Lexus GS450h and Infiniti M35h.

Then there are the Efficiency hybrids like the CT200h, the ES300h, the GS300h and IS300h...

As a luxury "efficiency" argument, hybrids are already pretty compelling as they are already close to beating turbodiesels for real world fuel efficiency with a refinement and quietness that diesels still can't beat. AND with none of the carcinogenic particulate emissions that diesels are infamous for.

As Performance Luxury vehicles, it's just a matter of maturation of the market and the tech. Right now Porsche and Ferrari have shown that hybrid can be a very credible performance package. For a price premium.

Lexus GS450h and Infiniti M35h are straddling the efficiency/performance continuum but with more tech trickling down from Toyota's research into the TS030 hyperperformance hybrid race car,it will only a matter of time that Lexus bring hyper performance hybrids into the mainstream luxury segment and at mainstream luxury costs.

 

Where in my post was I talking about a hybrid anything?

Bottom line is that even the base Camry, which brings up the rear in its class as far as overall efficiency, is still good enough to steer people away from hybrids. I have no doubt that the Accord Hybrid will be an awesome car, but with a starting price of $39k it's not going to be stealing sales away from anybody. You could nearly buy TWO regular Honda Accords for the price of one Hybrid. At $40k, most people around here would rather be driving an entry luxury car from either Japan or German.

 

Accord LX starts at $22K. Accord Hybrid starts at $29K. $40K would be the plug-in model, which I think is overpriced anyways.

 

I'm waiting for air hybrids with pneumatic valve systems. They should result in much simpler drivetrains by eliminating the need for combining power from two sources, and will reduce parasitic loss on the motor by eliminating the camshaft.

Air is compressed in situations similar to how regenerative braking is used now, and pumped through the engine to accelerate.

Pneumatic valves allow complete control over valve lift height and duration which should improve power and emissions.

 

lol I'm waiting for HCCI.

 

Does this mean the powertrain in the upper end IS will finally be updated? 306-hp is starting to look a little weaksauce these days...

 

Personally, when it comes to automobiles, I don't give a rat's *** about fuel economy

Otherwise, if I did, then I should just be taking public transportation instead.

Just saying

 

Just by nature of volume you will have Camry's and Accords on dealer lots. The fact of the matter is people trust the Camry hybrid and its accurate MPG ratings compared to FLUFFERY by other brands. Hyundai again just lowered the 2014 Sonata ratings.

Not everyone gives a **** about peak hp ratings or peak MPG based on unicorn math. Some people trust what is proven.

Getting to engines, Lexus used to be at the lead to me with BMW with engines but that is no longer the case. While perfectly adequate they are not class leading except in maybe reliability. I can't wait to see the new powerplants and what they offer. They cannot go another 5 years to me with the same engines.

 

Wait. He's cherry picking from using MT's numbers, but you aren't because you're using CR?

 

How do people know that Ford's EcoBoost engines and SOME other turbo-petrol engines haven't lived up to mileage claims, hmm? Look into that and you'll have your answer there. (Hint: It's not by looking up MT data).