Six ways to ruin your ride with terrible add-ons
10-18-12 | 05:04 PM
#46
Except brakes can overheat, pads can overheat, etc.
Calipers with more and/or bigger pistons will grab the disc harder and distribute the load more evenly; allowing you to STOP MORE QUICKLY, given you have adequate tires. Larger brakes with larger surface areas and larger venting areas will not overheat as easily.
On a weak brake setup, one hard stop will overheat them and make them very ineffective until they have time to cool down.
Bigger brakes most certainly do help you stop better. On one test that checks stopping distance changes? Probably not unless you're got tire upgrades or some seriously bad brakes as that's more of a function of tire grip. Multiple stops and jaunts through mountain roads, an HPDE, an autocross, etc? Makes a HUGE differ
.
Calipers with more and/or bigger pistons will grab the disc harder and distribute the load more evenly; allowing you to STOP MORE QUICKLY, given you have adequate tires. Larger brakes with larger surface areas and larger venting areas will not overheat as easily.
On a weak brake setup, one hard stop will overheat them and make them very ineffective until they have time to cool down.
Bigger brakes most certainly do help you stop better. On one test that checks stopping distance changes? Probably not unless you're got tire upgrades or some seriously bad brakes as that's more of a function of tire grip. Multiple stops and jaunts through mountain roads, an HPDE, an autocross, etc? Makes a HUGE differ
.
10-18-12 | 08:37 PM
#47
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 21,070
Likes: 3,173
From: Alberta
I've done brake upgrades on most of the cars I've owned, it was worthwhile in every instance. Yes in theory you are not going to stop any better because you are still limited by your tires, but that is only under specific conditions. The first thing you gain from a brake upgrade is better pedal feel, this alone makes it worth the money and effort. More precise brake travel and pad application gives more confidence, and makes it easier to drive. Going from single to dual piston calipers seems to give quicker response as well, although I have no proof that actually happens.
And of course there is the fact that stock brakes on many cars I've owned had the habit of fading, for example driving down a mountain pass, or spirited driving, things heat up to the point where the car starts to feel a little scary. People that say a brake upgrade is not worth it, have not actually done it.
And of course there is the fact that stock brakes on many cars I've owned had the habit of fading, for example driving down a mountain pass, or spirited driving, things heat up to the point where the car starts to feel a little scary. People that say a brake upgrade is not worth it, have not actually done it.
10-18-12 | 09:33 PM
#48
Sam,
Actually, no. look back at the article, the author makes no mention nor differentiation of first or repeated braking events.
It's simply a blanket statement that essentially all big brakes are a waste money time and effort
the single braking event was an argument yourself and others added in...
big brakes do make a difference; the generic improperly engineered kits may not but a properly designed kit will make a noted difference in the overall performance of the braking system. That article is, in fact , such a mindless and ignorant statement --about everything, not just brakes-- that he assumes that the vast majority of people who do put big brake kits on their cars do so with utter disregard for functionality in lieu of aesthetics only. aside from companies like KSport, most big brake kits are ENGINEERED for specific applications where the pistonSA is matched correctly from stock to the upgraded callipers.
On my little race car, upgrading from stock 10" rotors and single pot callipers to 12.2" 2pc rotors and forged callipers actually shaved 14lbs per corner off the unsprung weight, some 8lbs or so was off the rotational weight.
Without ABS, it is infinitely easier to modulate the brakes at the lockup threshold with a BBK than with stock brakes.
In real world situations, you probably wont ever see any discernible gains from a BBK beyond the increased thermal capacity, but there are many more benefits to be had from quality kits.
That whole article is a biased Op-ed from someone who sounds like they know nothing about cars beyond what they read from 10 mins of surfing on Wiki.
Actually, no. look back at the article, the author makes no mention nor differentiation of first or repeated braking events.
It's simply a blanket statement that essentially all big brakes are a waste money time and effort
the single braking event was an argument yourself and others added in...
big brakes do make a difference; the generic improperly engineered kits may not but a properly designed kit will make a noted difference in the overall performance of the braking system. That article is, in fact , such a mindless and ignorant statement --about everything, not just brakes-- that he assumes that the vast majority of people who do put big brake kits on their cars do so with utter disregard for functionality in lieu of aesthetics only. aside from companies like KSport, most big brake kits are ENGINEERED for specific applications where the pistonSA is matched correctly from stock to the upgraded callipers.
On my little race car, upgrading from stock 10" rotors and single pot callipers to 12.2" 2pc rotors and forged callipers actually shaved 14lbs per corner off the unsprung weight, some 8lbs or so was off the rotational weight.
Without ABS, it is infinitely easier to modulate the brakes at the lockup threshold with a BBK than with stock brakes.
In real world situations, you probably wont ever see any discernible gains from a BBK beyond the increased thermal capacity, but there are many more benefits to be had from quality kits.
That whole article is a biased Op-ed from someone who sounds like they know nothing about cars beyond what they read from 10 mins of surfing on Wiki.
10-18-12 | 10:37 PM
#49
Sam,
Actually, no. look back at the article, the author makes no mention nor differentiation of first or repeated braking events.
It's simply a blanket statement that essentially all big brakes are a waste money time and effort
the single braking event was an argument yourself and others added in...
big brakes do make a difference; the generic improperly engineered kits may not but a properly designed kit will make a noted difference in the overall performance of the braking system. That article is, in fact , such a mindless and ignorant statement --about everything, not just brakes-- that he assumes that the vast majority of people who do put big brake kits on their cars do so with utter disregard for functionality in lieu of aesthetics only. aside from companies like KSport, most big brake kits are ENGINEERED for specific applications where the pistonSA is matched correctly from stock to the upgraded callipers.
On my little race car, upgrading from stock 10" rotors and single pot callipers to 12.2" 2pc rotors and forged callipers actually shaved 14lbs per corner off the unsprung weight, some 8lbs or so was off the rotational weight.
Without ABS, it is infinitely easier to modulate the brakes at the lockup threshold with a BBK than with stock brakes.
In real world situations, you probably wont ever see any discernible gains from a BBK beyond the increased thermal capacity, but there are many more benefits to be had from quality kits.
That whole article is a biased Op-ed from someone who sounds like they know nothing about cars beyond what they read from 10 mins of surfing on Wiki.
Actually, no. look back at the article, the author makes no mention nor differentiation of first or repeated braking events.
It's simply a blanket statement that essentially all big brakes are a waste money time and effort
the single braking event was an argument yourself and others added in...
big brakes do make a difference; the generic improperly engineered kits may not but a properly designed kit will make a noted difference in the overall performance of the braking system. That article is, in fact , such a mindless and ignorant statement --about everything, not just brakes-- that he assumes that the vast majority of people who do put big brake kits on their cars do so with utter disregard for functionality in lieu of aesthetics only. aside from companies like KSport, most big brake kits are ENGINEERED for specific applications where the pistonSA is matched correctly from stock to the upgraded callipers.
On my little race car, upgrading from stock 10" rotors and single pot callipers to 12.2" 2pc rotors and forged callipers actually shaved 14lbs per corner off the unsprung weight, some 8lbs or so was off the rotational weight.
Without ABS, it is infinitely easier to modulate the brakes at the lockup threshold with a BBK than with stock brakes.
In real world situations, you probably wont ever see any discernible gains from a BBK beyond the increased thermal capacity, but there are many more benefits to be had from quality kits.
That whole article is a biased Op-ed from someone who sounds like they know nothing about cars beyond what they read from 10 mins of surfing on Wiki.
10-18-12 | 11:45 PM
#51
Lead Lap
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 715
Likes: 1
From: CA
After 1 lap at a HPDE at Laguna Seca, my 240SX's brakes were nonexistent. Turns 2 and 11 are really hard braking zones at the track, and I confess, I was using street pads and didn't replace the fluids.
I now have bigger brake calipers, rotors and better pads (hawk hps). Can't wait to go back to Laguna Seca and try the new setup.
I now have bigger brake calipers, rotors and better pads (hawk hps). Can't wait to go back to Laguna Seca and try the new setup.
10-19-12 | 04:19 AM
#52
10-19-12 | 05:23 AM
#53
Pole Position
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,882
Likes: 1
From: Coral Springs, Fl
that wasnt an advertisement...
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/brake_FAQ.htm
scroll down to "truth about big brake kits"
im telling u my car does stop much better, i couldnt care less what any of u think or say, i know my car, i know exactly how under braked a gen 1 Ls is and what effect putting larger rotors/pads and better calipers has had on my cars stopping distance. the very first sentence says..some cars can stop shorter from adding a bigger brake kit..well my car does.
in summation: before i put bigger brakes on, my cars braking was horrendous..after i put the brake kit on it stops much better and i havent changed anything else..tires,suspension or anything
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/brake_FAQ.htm
scroll down to "truth about big brake kits"
im telling u my car does stop much better, i couldnt care less what any of u think or say, i know my car, i know exactly how under braked a gen 1 Ls is and what effect putting larger rotors/pads and better calipers has had on my cars stopping distance. the very first sentence says..some cars can stop shorter from adding a bigger brake kit..well my car does.
in summation: before i put bigger brakes on, my cars braking was horrendous..after i put the brake kit on it stops much better and i havent changed anything else..tires,suspension or anything
10-19-12 | 07:16 AM
#54
which is what gen 1 Ls brakes are,a failure..look im not going to get into a debate here..if larger brakes arent beneficial..why not put smaller brakes on a car? why would gen 2 Ls or even 93-94 Ls 400's have a brake upgrade over 89-92?
10-19-12 | 11:03 AM
#55
Sam,
Actually, no. look back at the article, the author makes no mention nor differentiation of first or repeated braking events.
It's simply a blanket statement that essentially all big brakes are a waste money time and effort
the single braking event was an argument yourself and others added in...
big brakes do make a difference; the generic improperly engineered kits may not but a properly designed kit will make a noted difference in the overall performance of the braking system. That article is, in fact , such a mindless and ignorant statement --about everything, not just brakes-- that he assumes that the vast majority of people who do put big brake kits on their cars do so with utter disregard for functionality in lieu of aesthetics only. aside from companies like KSport, most big brake kits are ENGINEERED for specific applications where the pistonSA is matched correctly from stock to the upgraded callipers.
On my little race car, upgrading from stock 10" rotors and single pot callipers to 12.2" 2pc rotors and forged callipers actually shaved 14lbs per corner off the unsprung weight, some 8lbs or so was off the rotational weight.
Without ABS, it is infinitely easier to modulate the brakes at the lockup threshold with a BBK than with stock brakes.
In real world situations, you probably wont ever see any discernible gains from a BBK beyond the increased thermal capacity, but there are many more benefits to be had from quality kits.
That whole article is a biased Op-ed from someone who sounds like they know nothing about cars beyond what they read from 10 mins of surfing on Wiki.
Actually, no. look back at the article, the author makes no mention nor differentiation of first or repeated braking events.
It's simply a blanket statement that essentially all big brakes are a waste money time and effort
the single braking event was an argument yourself and others added in...
big brakes do make a difference; the generic improperly engineered kits may not but a properly designed kit will make a noted difference in the overall performance of the braking system. That article is, in fact , such a mindless and ignorant statement --about everything, not just brakes-- that he assumes that the vast majority of people who do put big brake kits on their cars do so with utter disregard for functionality in lieu of aesthetics only. aside from companies like KSport, most big brake kits are ENGINEERED for specific applications where the pistonSA is matched correctly from stock to the upgraded callipers.
On my little race car, upgrading from stock 10" rotors and single pot callipers to 12.2" 2pc rotors and forged callipers actually shaved 14lbs per corner off the unsprung weight, some 8lbs or so was off the rotational weight.
Without ABS, it is infinitely easier to modulate the brakes at the lockup threshold with a BBK than with stock brakes.
In real world situations, you probably wont ever see any discernible gains from a BBK beyond the increased thermal capacity, but there are many more benefits to be had from quality kits.
That whole article is a biased Op-ed from someone who sounds like they know nothing about cars beyond what they read from 10 mins of surfing on Wiki.
In this case Sam is correct in saying if your stock brakes are able to lock up the tires, increasing the brake size will not make them stop faster/shorter.
In extreme repeated braking applications (such as track use), most of the time upgraded pads and fluid are enough of an upgrade.
It's really hard to make a simple blanket assumption on a mod like this. Cars with inadequate brake set ups could benefit a lot from a BBK, other cars come stock with more than capable brakes and getting a BBK does nothing more than add bling
Your unsprung weight argument again varies on a case by case basis depending on the weight of the BBK and oem set up. Not all set ups will see the weight savings you did.
10-19-12 | 11:12 PM
#57
Second jpg is a 1990 ls400
Last edited by sam12345; 10-20-12 at 12:29 AM.
10-21-12 | 10:13 AM
#58
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...all.html?ti=v2
u better check again sam...scroll to the bottom and look at the stopping distance.
u better check again sam...scroll to the bottom and look at the stopping distance.
10-21-12 | 12:04 PM
#59
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...all.html?ti=v2
u better check again sam...scroll to the bottom and look at the stopping distance.
u better check again sam...scroll to the bottom and look at the stopping distance.
Just to prove my point compare the infinity in your attachment to the road and track one I posted. Apples to apples the bigger brakes did nothing for stopping distance. Reason for the changes is brake feel and brake fade
Here is motortrends for a 1991 LS 400
Dang Le is a gearhead of the highest order, and holds the distinct honor of being the Lieberman family mechanic. He's currently working on a land speed vehicle powered by a Ford flathead V-8. Why I like it: "It's the first luxury vehicle I've owned. More important, it's never let me down." Why It's Collectible: "It's the first high-end Lexus to reach our shores, not counting the ES 250, which was a Camry." Restoring/Maintaining: "As long as the timing belt/water pump major services are covered, there's no reason to doubt the car will run to a million miles. Though they do end up smelling like all older Toyotas." Beware: "Active air-suspension models. Those air struts like to go boom. Also, if the starter goes bad, my professional advice is to buy another car." Expect to Pay: Concours-ready, $4300; solid driver, $2200; tired runner, $1000. Join the Club: Club Lexus (clublexus.com), The Lexus Owners Club (lexusownersclub.com) Our Take Then: "The LS 400 clearly asserts Lexus as a world power in luxury sedan design -- a contender, not a pretender." -- Jeff Karr, Motor Trend, August 1989. Now: The LS 400 is a fascinating reminder of a time when Japan seemed poised to rule the world. Funny how history works Specifications:
Engine 242.2-cu-in/3969cc DOHC V-8, Toyota ECCS fuel injection
Power and torque 250 hp @ 5600 rpm, 260 lb-ft @ 4400 rpm
Drivetrain 4-speed automatic, RWD
Brakes front: vented disc, rear: vented disc, ABS
Suspension front: control arms, air springs, anti-roll bar; rear: multilink, air springs, anti-roll bar
Dimensions L: 196.7 in, W: 71.7 in, H: 55.3 in
Weight 3759 lb
Performance 0-60 mph: 8.1 sec, quarter mile: 16.1 sec @ 89.3 mph, 60-0 mph: 126 ft (Motor Trend, March 1990)
Here is motor trend for a 1995 LS 400
Acceleration, 0-60 mph, sec 7.0
Standing quarter mile, sec/mph 15.2/94.3
Braking, 60-0, ft 125
Handling, lateral acceleration, g 0.79
Speed through 600-ft slalom, mph 62.6
EPA fuel economy, mpg, city/hwy
So I would say 1 foot is within the margin of error
Case closed
Last edited by sam12345; 10-21-12 at 12:28 PM.
10-21-12 | 12:18 PM
#60
Six ways to ruin your ride with terrible add-ons
1) Excessively wide wheels/tires.
On a factory vehicle with factory suspension, couldn't agree more. Nothing wrong with mildly wider, no problem, but, excessively wide, especially on a car not designed for it, is just going to increase unsprung weight. Even with moderate suspension upgrades, changing these things improperly, such as running too aggressive offsets and such, will negatively affect handling and overall performance.
2) Poorly designed aftermarket intakes.
I actually tested this on my IS300 and proved it 100%. Mainly applies to "short ram" style intakes - they do nothing except for pull in hot engine air, increase intake temps and they do nothing for power. The thread can be found in the maintenance sub forum.
3) Knock-off safety components. This week's federal warning about counterfeit air bags in thousands of cars highlights how the advent of eBay and flourishing, cheap overseas manufacturing have contributed to cheap replica parts.
To be honest, I didn't even realize this was an issue... buyer beware
4) Bigger brakes don't improve braking. Even stainless steel brake lines can be a problematic upgrade.
This has been argued already in this thread. If you can go drive your car to, lets say, 60 mph, hammer the brakes and you get ABS actuation, your tires are the braking limiter - brake upgrades at this point will do nothing to shorten stopping distances. Better tires, however, will. Once you hit the speed that the ABS doesn't activate, then you have found the speed that a brake upgrade may help. It is very important that special attention is paid towards brake pad compounds, as they may make initial braking much worse than a stock or street pad. It is very important that the brakes are tailored to the application and in general, race brakes are better for actual racing situation and street brakes are generally better for street situations, imagine that. It is very difficult to quantify once we go to multiple high speed stops in a row, and that is, or should never be, the case on the street. Many stainless lines are not nearly as good as new OE lines, some, however are. Pick carefully. For anyone who doubts this, I highly recommend reading this article: http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm#4%20Wheel
5) Pointlessly huge exhaust.
Pointlessly huge... 3 or 4" exhaust on a naturally aspirated import. Pointless, to me, indicates that the size of the exhaust is excessive in comparison to the power the engine makes. In these cases, exhaust size can become a problem and actually cause a loss in power during certain engine RPM ranges
6) Rock-hard suspension.
If the suspension is so stiff that the tire loses contact with the ground over small bumps, cornering will actually be lessened. It may still feel faster, but it isn't... Many think that very stiff suspension keeps the tire on the ground and that is partially true, but once it becomes bouncy at all, then you are losing performance
The problem with these listed is that many people ~perceive~ each of these mods to make their car faster, handle better, stop better. The perception is generally due to the car now being louder, rougher, perhaps with better turn in or initial braking bite...
1) Excessively wide wheels/tires.
On a factory vehicle with factory suspension, couldn't agree more. Nothing wrong with mildly wider, no problem, but, excessively wide, especially on a car not designed for it, is just going to increase unsprung weight. Even with moderate suspension upgrades, changing these things improperly, such as running too aggressive offsets and such, will negatively affect handling and overall performance.
2) Poorly designed aftermarket intakes.
I actually tested this on my IS300 and proved it 100%. Mainly applies to "short ram" style intakes - they do nothing except for pull in hot engine air, increase intake temps and they do nothing for power. The thread can be found in the maintenance sub forum.
3) Knock-off safety components. This week's federal warning about counterfeit air bags in thousands of cars highlights how the advent of eBay and flourishing, cheap overseas manufacturing have contributed to cheap replica parts.
To be honest, I didn't even realize this was an issue... buyer beware
4) Bigger brakes don't improve braking. Even stainless steel brake lines can be a problematic upgrade.
This has been argued already in this thread. If you can go drive your car to, lets say, 60 mph, hammer the brakes and you get ABS actuation, your tires are the braking limiter - brake upgrades at this point will do nothing to shorten stopping distances. Better tires, however, will. Once you hit the speed that the ABS doesn't activate, then you have found the speed that a brake upgrade may help. It is very important that special attention is paid towards brake pad compounds, as they may make initial braking much worse than a stock or street pad. It is very important that the brakes are tailored to the application and in general, race brakes are better for actual racing situation and street brakes are generally better for street situations, imagine that. It is very difficult to quantify once we go to multiple high speed stops in a row, and that is, or should never be, the case on the street. Many stainless lines are not nearly as good as new OE lines, some, however are. Pick carefully. For anyone who doubts this, I highly recommend reading this article: http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm#4%20Wheel
5) Pointlessly huge exhaust.
Pointlessly huge... 3 or 4" exhaust on a naturally aspirated import. Pointless, to me, indicates that the size of the exhaust is excessive in comparison to the power the engine makes. In these cases, exhaust size can become a problem and actually cause a loss in power during certain engine RPM ranges
6) Rock-hard suspension.
If the suspension is so stiff that the tire loses contact with the ground over small bumps, cornering will actually be lessened. It may still feel faster, but it isn't... Many think that very stiff suspension keeps the tire on the ground and that is partially true, but once it becomes bouncy at all, then you are losing performance
The problem with these listed is that many people ~perceive~ each of these mods to make their car faster, handle better, stop better. The perception is generally due to the car now being louder, rougher, perhaps with better turn in or initial braking bite...
Last edited by mitsuguy; 10-21-12 at 01:21 PM.