ydooby

Yeah that's really a boneheaded move. Most people buying hybrids want fuel efficiency. Just because the performance hybrid (GS450h) sold poorly for them it doesn't mean a fuel economy-oriented hybrid won't sell. The IS300h would've been a great addition to Lexus's US lineup and it's just too bad they don't understand what the market really wants.

Same thing will happen to the AH3, which is a well-rounded package in its own right but people won't be buying it because it costs too much for too little fuel efficiency and performance gain. Or maybe they will, since its lease rates are likely to be killer as usual.

spwolf

Not so sure that people in US would pay same money for IS300h as IS350 though. They might say that they can get Camry for less money and same "power".

Or why would they get car that goes 0.60 in 8s for same money as IS350 that goes 0-60 in 5.4s.

Or why pay 5k extra for IS300h compared to IS250 when they have same power... very similar to GS350 vs GS450h story actually.

ydooby

Because a 4-banger hybrid will actually be significantly more fuel efficient, exactly what most hybrid buyers want! Most hybrid buyers pay a premium over the gas-only counterparts to feel good about using less fuel, not to get more performance. The IS300h will offer that in a RWD package that still feels sporty enough to have some fun, and I bet the IS300h will not feel nearly as gutless as the IS250, despite the similarly moderate 0-60 figures.

spwolf

GS450h is significantly more fuel efficient than GS350 so? It is also faster in midrange if not in 0-60.

If they dont want to pay more for 32 MPG hybrid that goes 0-60 in 5.x seconds, you think they will pay more for 40 MPG hybrid that does it in 8.x seconds?

Lexus will offer it and it might sell ok, if gas goes more expensive... but otherwise, GS450h is very impressive product but it wont sell ever in the US due to the price not being related with performance. If they managed to make it look faster 0-60, they would have sold 5x more at same price.


I am talking about US market here of course.

ydooby

No, the IS300h will sell because its fuel efficiency improvement over the IS250 will be much larger than the GS450h over the GS350 simply because the IS300h uses a 4-cylinder engine. The GS450h gets just a ho-hum 31mpg while the IS300h is projected to get 40mpg if not better! It's the same reason why the Camry Hybrid sells. The gap to its gas-only counterpart has to be significant enough.

spwolf

ho-what?

31 MPG is GS450h is probably more impressive than 40 MPG in IS300h, considering it has 100+ hp more in heavier and larger car.

If someone is interested in MPG only in luxury market, they can easily just get Camry or Fusion and spend $15k less.

I am having hard time seeing people buying IS300h with 5k premium over IS250. In the US. It wont happen. We can see what has been happening in the market so far and this wont fly.

In Europe, Japan, Asia, 80% of sales will be IS300h. But in US, customers expect more power when they pay more. Camry Hybrid is more powerful than 4cly and cheaper than V6. Imagine Camry hybrid selling for 30k... it wouldn't be selling at all.

ydooby

Of course the GS450h's 31mpg is great--given the performance--but I said it's ho-hum only based on just the fuel efficiency improvement alone because time and time again the market has been proven to ignore the performance aspect when it comes to hybrids. Most of them just want fuel efficiency, even in a luxury vehicle. The RX hybrid sells welll because it gets significantly better fuel efficiency from weight savings from not having a drive shaft. The IS300h will sell because it uses a 4-cylinder engine instead of 6. Same with the ES300h. They all present 50% or better fuel efficiency gains over their gas-only counterparts. Not the GS450h. Not the LS600hL. Therefore they fail, sales-wise.

spwolf

sure, but you forget the price point - while ES300h is $1750 more expensive than ES350, IS300h will be 5k more than IS250. So economically, there is no way for it to pay off soon.

In Europe it is different due to resale values of hybrids being a lot more than V6's.

ydooby

Where do you get the US pricing of the IS300h from? The IS300h uses a cheaper 4-cylinder 2.5 versus a more expensive 6-cylinder 2.5 of the IS250. It's going to cost at most 3k more than the IS250 if I were to dish out an estimation.

Especially for luxury hybrids, it isn't about "paying off", but it's about feeling good in using less fuel. People have been gladly buying the RX450h despite the 6k+ premium (before accounting for differences in standard equipment).

viperabyss

Here's a hint for you: not everyone looking for luxury sedan cares about 0-60.

What they care about is prestige and image, two things that the GS possess. If they tend to drive in cities, 450h makes a very competitive product.

Will 450h sell in the US? Not very likely, but not because of lack of market, but rather due to its price ($70k) relative to what it brings.

viperabyss

I would actually disagree. Lexus is much more likely to price at the same level of IS350, if not above. If you look at the price range they offer, pricing ISh at 40k would make it clash with the ESh (not that many regular people care about FWD vs. RWD). If I were to venture a guess, it would be in the 45k~50k region.

And I've driven RXh in urban environment, and it is markedly more efficient than the non-hybrid version. The RXh returned a 27mpg with lead foot acceleration and heavy traffic. RX350 would return about 18mpg, if not less, under the same condition. A family I talked to (anecdote, of course) who also drove a RXh said a same tank would last twice as long compared to the non-hybrid version.

Hybird vehicles does have a market. It is a niche market, sure, but the market is still there.

ydooby

The IS line has always clashed with the ES so why is that only a problem now? The IS is positioned slightly lower than the ES actually, so it makes sense that the IS300h would be priced lower than the ES300h IMHO.

spwolf

yeah but it wont... IS300h is more advanced system, it will cost more... as I said, in Europe, price will be more than IS250 by 5k.

And buyers will be comparing it to IS250, and see 5k difference in price and no difference in 0-60.

It will be awesome engine for IS300h and GS300h in Europe... awesome. And they will sell tons of them.

Just not in the USA :-)

ydooby

More advanced? The only "advanced" bit of the new 4-cylinder hybrid powertrain is direct injection, which the IS250 has too. The "5k difference" in Europe most likely comes from a much better equipped standard IS300h over a stripped IS250, which doesn't have to be the case in the US. Also, I don't know why you keep on repeating the 0-60 issue when it's pretty much proven that hybrid buyers don't care about power, not to mention that if the estimates from Autocar are even remotely correct, it will do 0-60 in 7 seconds or less, a very plausible time given the 240hp figure you raved about so much.

bagwell

yep 3 series styling has grown on me as well...I like the front end looks way more than 5 series.

.....but your forgetting TT&L for the lease....if you rolled in the down payment + TTL it would add over $200 to the payment.