Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

Bigger V6 and RWD and I still see it as more comparable to a ES than a GS.Especially at $13K cheaper than a GS.
The Genesis is entry level luxury to me.

ydooby

Why is it so hard for you to accept that fact that the Genesis sedan belongs to two classes? You're even repeating the facts already--that spec-wise it's in the same class as the GS, and yet price-wise it's in the same class as the ES.

The two comparison reviews quoted by Blueprint above should tell you something. The media are comparing the Genesis sedan to both the ES and the GS.

ydooby

Exactly. The Genesis is compared to both the GS and the ES depending on what subject the reviewer sets the comparison on. The fact that the Genesis doesn't drive sporty has nothing to do with whether or not it belongs to the midsize luxury class, or the unsporty E-Class should be excluded as well.

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

The Genesis is entry level and the GS isn't.I didn't and wouldn't cross shop a Genesis with a GS,A6 or 5 Series.
ES,TL,Genesis...

ydooby

And the Genesis is midsize luxury and so is the GS. It's the very reason why the GS's sales hasn't been as high as it could have been, that the ES has been stealing sales away from the GS. Just think about it. Not everyone buys a luxury car based on price only. Some people just want a midsize luxury car.

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

A $15K difference comparably equipped will put some people in a ES over a GS.
Bottom line is the GS is not considered entry level mid size luxury car.

ydooby

Why are you stressing the fact the GS is not considered entry level luxury when the argument is about whether or not the Genesis is in the midsize luxury class? No one ever said the GS is entry luxury.

Care to give me just one reason why the Genesis should not belong to the midsize luxury class?

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

I feel there's a difference in entry level luxury cars like the ES,TL,Genesis and the GS,A6,5 Series etc.
So to me a Genesis isn't in the GS luxury mid size class.

ydooby

Well yeah you feel that way because of the Genesis's pricing, despite the objective fact that the it is also a midsize luxury car. Anyway I think there's nothing more to argue about.

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

Level of luxury.
Post 84.

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

Guys take the back and forth to PM to work it out please

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

while that's all true, and the mags praised it, i felt from the get go of owning one that the STOCK handling of a 2GS was inadequate for the V8 version in particular. and this was to a guy that had come from fwd cars. of course with the lexus l-tuned mods or more, the car was transformed! without question the best sedan i ever owned.

i generally agree with all of this. doesn't take away from the 2GS achievement. it made a HUGE impact in the market and for lexus and was in fact, the car that made this forum, ClubLexus, take off, so obviously a ton of people found it sporty, and a ton of people modded them!

i disagree. otherwise ES and GS would be defined as same category, and they're not. lexus cleverly split the market, with 'cushy' and 'sporty' models, and has done well with each. the GS sales don't match the 5 / E because lexus also has (huge) ES sales for the majority of buyers that don't care about acceleration or even rwd. but 5/E/GS/A6 are typically bought or leased new by 30-50 year old males wanting a sophisticated vehicle that also handles pretty well.

as you know, i was there, owned one, and drove everything else. my neighbor had a 5 series too and we'd compare. without mods, his drove sportier. with mods, i ate his lunch.

market considered it so, lexus marketed it as such, and so it was.

but objectively the 3GS has much better stock handling than 2GS, but of course it got basically yawns from magazines. part of that is because lexus dropped the ball on marketing.

so there's marketing spin and PR (including magazine spin), objective truth, and consumer views which are usually somewhere in between.

but it's very good that the 4GS came to market with a world class chassis and handling. their initial u.s. marketing was quite 'aggressive' and sporty, but lately i've seen nothing.

GS69

Toyota Still Hampered by Sales Slide in China

Toyota Motor Corp. is still dogged by a sales crisis Japanese automakers are suffering in China as a result of a territorial row between the 2 countries but December sales proved "surprisingly resilient", a senior Toyota executive said.

The executive said customer traffic in Toyota's showrooms was recovering to levels seen before the crisis over the disputed islands in the East China Sea broke out last September.

Toyota sold "almost" 90,000 vehicles in China in December, compared with 108,000 cars the company and its 2 Chinese partners sold in December 2011.

Toyota is expected to announce its China sales data for December on Monday, according to a Beijing-based company spokesman. He did not respond to calls seeking comment on November sales.

The pace of last month's decline -- roughly 17% from a year earlier -- eased from the previous 3 months.

"Sales rebounded faster than we had expected," said the Toyota executive, who declined to be identified because the sales information has not been made public yet.

He attributed the recovery in part to discounts and other sales incentives the Japanese company provided during the month.

Toyota's December sales fall followed a decline of 22% in November, 44% in October, and almost 50% in September.

Even with its recent sales slump in China, the world's biggest new-car market, Toyota is poised to regain the global sales lead from GM in 2012.

Signs in the marketplace across China -- including a recovery in customer traffic in dealer showrooms -- were "encouraging", the Toyota executive said.

Sales patterns showed consumers were no longer as spooked as they were before a surge of anti-Japan sentiment that affected sales at auto stores and other Japanese-branded companies such as electronics firms.

Violent anti-Japan protests swept China from mid-September after Japan bought 2 East China Sea islands, known as the Diaoyu in Chinese and Senkaku in Japanese, from their private owner. China claims the islands as its own territory.

Demand slumped in September and October, reducing the market share of Japanese firms in China's passenger car market to about 17% from 19% at the end of August, according to the China Association of Automotive Manufacturers.

Some Chinese consumers have since avoided Japanese cars. In a widely reported incident during the height of the anti-Japanese sentiment, a Chinese man was attacked by angry protesters for driving a Toyota Corolla.

December sales showed Chinese consumers were "not as fearful of buying and driving Japanese cars as before", the Toyota executive said.

spwolf

Genesis Sedan... Genesis Coupe starts at 25k and currently between 30% and 50% of overall Genesis sales. If we check inventory levels, they are 50/50 for Sedan/Coupe.

Hopefully this leads to Hyundai starting real luxury brand eventually... more competition, better for us.

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

I'm curious to see the drop from 2796 the GS may have without those great Dec incentives.
Nov was 18XX.