trexlexus

BMW's 320i starts with cloth? I thought all luxury brands in the US offered either faux leather or real leather as a standard option. I know that cloth 2nd generation ISs exist, but only after a very special ordering process, because they **** dealers off with the lower resale value.

Or were those two separate, non related statements?

SteVTEC

You're calling the 320i terrible on the basis of feature content and not how it looks or how it drives. Even a base 320i will drive a whole lot better than a Honda Accord will. I owned a Honda Accord once and it had a ton of features for the money, but in terms of how it drove it was a "terrible" car also. You only get so much car for $30k, so what is it you want? Features? Go buy a Honda. Great driving car? Buy the BMW. Both? BMW and spend $40k to make it "proper". Germans drive around base 3ers and C-classes and A4s with cloth seats as their equivalents to Accords, Camrys, and Altimas. And yes base BMWs in the U.S. all come with leatherette.

On the contrary mileage is great, and reliability is average or better on the more basic BMWs and really not a whole lot different than many Toyotas these days. Sure, depreciation especially in terms of raw dollar amount will be higher the more you spend.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Less tech = less weight = better mileage. Also less tech = less electronics etc.. to go bad

LexFather

Uhhhh, car sales are through the roof, some brands are selling better than ever before here. Luxury brands are moving UP and down, not just down.

Sure the economy has issues but its not the end of time as its being painted by some people.

SteVTEC

Right. Much of what goes wrong in fancy cars are the complicated optional features. An optional gadget that you don't have, can't go wrong on you. Sitting in a BMW dealership one day they told a guy that both of his headlight washers were leaking and would take a total of $500 to fix and replace both (whatever parts & labor). I don't have those on purpose in either car, and to be honest they're not even needed around here.

CDNROCKIES

You're totally contradicting yourself. I already stated that if you like the 320 for how it drives, good on you....but that still doesn't make it a luxury car. THAT is the discussion....LUXURY cars. If you enjoy the driving dynamics of a BMW then just say THAT. The fact that it has a terrible interior, no features, bad mileage (especially compared to mass produced competitors for equal price), and horrible depreciation doesn't make it a luxury car.

Have you even been in one of these base models here in NA???

We've been saddled with 320's, X1's and C230's as loaners and, as I stated earlier, cannot believe people will spend this kind of money on pseudo-luxury cars.

You are correct that BMW doesn't get into "proper" luxury cars until you get past the $40K threshold with full load 328's or less optioned 335's.

LOL!

Mileage is definitely improved, but nowhere near great when you compare it to similarly priced $30K mass produced cars.

Try shopping for a reasonable priced "luxury" car that gets great gas mileage. There are a total of 2....the A3 diesel and the CT200h and both are overpriced for what you get.

I'm currently shopping for something that gets great mileage that I can drive the crap out of and then bury.....and there is nothing that the Tier 1 brands offer that is competitive to mass produced cars at $30K.

Seriously...put down the kool-aid. The most reliable BMW is the M3. Outside of that, they are mediocre at best. Your 335....and any other BMW with the N54 (including my father's X6)....are a complete joke.

Your premise that any BMW is as reliable as the Toyata's is purely laughable. Stats don't lie and you are frankly wrong about this.

Finally something we agree on.

But you also have to acknowledge that resale is dramatically worse for the Germans....due to their mediocre reliability....and mediocre mileage....especially compared equally priced mass produced cars.


At the end of the day....buy what you want....but at the $30K price point you aren't buying a LUXURY car.

trexlexus

Don't wanna butt in but why did you say that? Just curious.

CDNROCKIES

All of the data that I have researched in shopping it, both anecdotally and compiled, indicate that.

SteVTEC

Like I said, you only get so much car for $30k, and the BMWs currently have class-leading fuel economy. Even out of their class they still have highly competitive mileage. The 328i performs better than the Camry and Accord V6s and gets better mileage. It's official now, you'll be able to get a BMW 328d (2.0L turbodiesel) final specs unknown starting in July, but you likely won't be able to get one for $30k. Probably more like $40k. Sounds like you ought to shop for a VW TDI fully loaded. Those you can get for around $30k maybe, but reliability goes out the window.

Are you and spwolf related somehow, because this is one of the most egregiously bad post butcherings I've seen on here in quite awhile. I very specifically qualified my statement which you apparently completely ignored.

Here's what I DID say.

And Consumer Reports will back all of that up.

"the more basic" meaning not the ones loaded to the gills with tons of techno gadgets that will fail
"average or better" means just that. Not top notch, but hardly bad.

The better BMWs are not any worse than a typical Toyota.

Please note the emphasis.

BMW had their HPFP issues. Toyota had their sludge and recall issues. And Honda had their transmission issues. The HPFP issues seem to be a thing of the past. I have the newer N55, and failure rates on these are more or less down to natural attrition levels and hardly widespread anymore. My 335 hasn't been perfect, but it hasn't had any engine related issues, has never left me stranded or gone into a limp mode, and has had NO recalls. My last Toyota was a 2007 RAV4 V6 which was a piece of junk, DID leave me stranded once, was very poorly designed in more than a few ways, needed a transmission replacement, and keeps getting recall notice after recall notice after recall notice, along with it having been in the shop for a few TSBs as well.

Consumer Reports 2012 Annual Auto Issue:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2...cars/index.htm

They quote BMW as a whole as having "good" reliability, and by that I think they infer that "average" or better is good.

A 2007 BMW 335i convertible is at the lower end of the reliability scale when it comes to BMWs but not the worst, and still manages to squeak out an "average" ranking from Consumer Reports for reliability. A 2007 Toyota RAV4 V6 gets the same exact "average" rating. So if you want to say that BMWs are "mediocre" then you'll have to admit that some Toyotas are as well. Toyotas are hardly infallible and they hardly have a perfect record.

SteVTEC

Consumer Reports gives it an "average" rating. There are better BMWs than that, and exactly as I stated if you check their ratings you'll see that the "more basic" BMWs like the 325/328 naturally aspirated with port injection and not loaded to the gills with tons of techno gadgetry that are famous for breaking is one of them. BMWs like that tend to score "better than average", which is the same exact ranking that used Toyota Camrys tend to get. Pretty good but not quite perfect.

seanlee

30k can buy you a V6 Accord that pretty much destroys any luxury brand at 30k range.

that said, i know a lot of people drive nicer cars as a statement (just like Rolex, where a mikrotimer 1000/2000 packs technology way beyond any rolex that i know), so i am sure there will be a lot of market for a cheap luxury brand. it increase chance for your to land on a lady for example.

for a guy like me, married with a family, i felt to see the value for a cheap luxury car. i don't need a car to make a statement.

LexFather

What is ironic is this Honda rational hurts Acura more than anyone, since you can make the case that the Accord is as good as a TSX, TL, RLX or not far worse, for the money. Its clear for other brands, that is not an issue.

It seems most Honda fans don't understand what luxury buyers want, which is why Acura struggles in the luxury market.. Luxury is not primarily about value. Most Accords are not 30k when sold either, they are 25k LX models with cloth. A 30k Accord is built to the standard of a 20k car. A 30k car is potentially overbuilt since in many cases that car will be double/triple the price by the time the carmaker offers its AMG/F/M etc versions. Whats kind of sad is Acura had a good niche in the 30-40k market with the 2nd/3rd gen TL and a loaded TSX but they lost it. Now here comes Mercedes.

We need more enthusiasts and people that will make emotional purchases, not more non-enthusiasts counting X's and O's and trying to rationalize and feel their Accord is better than a real luxury car. B/C then they can probably rationalize that the Civic is better than the Accord, and the Fit is better than the Civic etc etc.

CLA45 is coming

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/me...e-with-lunacy/

mmarshall

I understand what you're saying, but, sometimes, "emotions" can simply mean the satisfaction of knowing that, for one's own particular purposes/driving-needs, he or she has spent the money wisely and simply bought the best car for them. For 25K, for example (even less in some versions), I'm more than pleased with my Verano. I look forward to driving it each morning, and enjoy every minute behind the wheel.....knowing, of course, that it lacks the cargo-capability and winter traction of my Outback. If it can't go through a blizzard or carry furniture like an Outback, I'm not going to harp and complain about that...I knew that before I bought it (although the snow-traction, so far, is not as bad as I expected...it's reasonably good).

If I really wanted one, I could afford a new 100K+ car...(even an LS600H, which would probably be the epitome of the low-noise-leveI that I like). I simply choose not to spend that much, though, on a car. 40K or so would probably be my limit, and there are excellent buys on the market substantially less than that.

LexFather

Right but you were emotionally attracted to the Vernao. You made a logical purchase based on your assessment on basic needs. I know you did like the Verano through your posts and PM so there was some emotion involved. A truly emotional decision would have been "let me right this check for this Panamera, price be damned, I don't need a big car, I don't need all this space". I don't think you approached the Verano with "well I can buy a Verano for 25k and its as good as a ES 350 for less". Contrarily seanlee is trying to explain a 30k Accord is better than a 30k luxury branded car based not on emotion but logic. Luxury is not about logic.

Beancounters will kill the fun. They will explain logical decisions why we should all drive a Corolla b/c "that is all we need". They will tell us we need low-fat ice cream, we don't need to eat a giant bone-in Ribeye from STK when we can get one at Waffle House.

Luxury & emotion is not about logic. We don't "need" these types of vehicles in most instances, a Camry or Accord would be fine and since they sell so well and so many they appeal to people logically (surely there are a few who are emotional about a Camry/Accord purchase)

ISFPOWER

iTrader: (20)

i wouldn't consider any FWD a luxury car. that's been a huge debate with acura badge over the years. nice cars but having fwd on all their vehicles is something hindering their sales IMO. the driving characteristics of a rwd , big motor car is not the same as a 4/6 cyl fwd. there is a difference in luxury amenities and a luxury car. just because your car is quiet, it's not a luxury car.