mmarshall

Fine. Then facts it is. Those sales-numbers you posted, for the most part, aren't bad at all, considering that the years 2008-2012 were basically recession-years, where overall auto sales were down. Not only did two of the largest corporations in the buisness (GM and Chrysler) undergo bankrupcies and major restructions/buyouts, but, for a while, in 2009, a number of sales were being propped up by the Obama Administration's Cash-for-Clunkers program. Part of that, of course, was to stimulate the sales of high-mileage vehicles like hybrids. But not every vehicle can be expected to have six-figure sales numbers like the Camry, Accord, or F-150/Silverado. In this day and age, if it gets into five-figure sales several years in a row, that's doing pretty good. And the reason that Civic Hybrid sales went down in 2010 and 2011 is mostly due to the then-expanding number of Prius numbers, the additon of the Honda Insight, and the growing popularity here in the American market of VW TDI diesels, which offer comparable mileage with less complexity.

But this thread is not (primarily) about industry-hybrid sales, but to discuss one specific hybrid...the new Fusion. If you want to discuss sales of other hybrids, we can start a new thread for that.

Fly4u

Thanks very much! I plan to spend time learning from the various threads on the ES subforum thanks to the many Club Lexus members.

Timeframe to purchase is judgemental and will be as soon as the final vehicle is chosen. Hopefully by the end of March; I'm one of those weird guys who actually enjoys the entire new car puchase process.

mmarshall

That, to some extent, describes the last-generation Fusion Hybrid, which also had excellent MPG and reliability, though its MSRP, of course, couldn't compete with those of entry-level Prius and Insight models. Still, Toyota was forced to come out with smaller, cheaper versions of the Prius (like the relatively new C model) because some Prius MSRP's themselves were starting to get out of hand. The new Fusion Hybrid seems to carry on a number of the virtues the old one had...except for the new one's overly-complex dash, too-low rear roofline for rear-seat comfort, and Space-Shuttle dash readouts. And there isn't a Prius out there, IMO, that offers the kind of front-seat comfort and road manners the new Fusion Hybrid does....it's up to the Camry Hybrid to try and do that.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Ford's is one of the best. I also admire Lexus's which is simple and elegant yet effective

mmarshall

BTW...for anyone else here on CL who was at the D.C. show and got a similiar program/registration from Ford, it is also good for any Lincoln test-drive as well. It does not have to be a Ford-badged vehicle...but just do it by March 31.

pbm317

I still stand by my initial statement that the Prius is the only hybrid with consistent sales success, which you refuted, and the numbers have proven to side with my statement. The Fusion might have hit 5 figures, but there are huge swings, with volume dropping nearly 50% from one year to the next.

pbm317

That's because the Prius isn't intended to compete with the Fusion Hybrid!

mmarshall

Actually, I didn't entirely refute it...I said that I just didn't entirely (or quite) agree. The actual numbers show decent (but not large) sales...which is what I said in the first place.

mmarshall

Agreed...so you can't necessarily expect the sales figures to be similiar. The Camry Hybrid, of course, which does compete directly with the Fusion Hybrid, is a different story. In fact, until Ford was able to produce hybrid components in its own name, some Ford hybrid products used Toyota-sourced hybrid components, under license, in their construction.

Sulu

I do not believe that is completely true, Mike. I do not believe that Ford actually acquired any hybrid components directly from Toyota. Ford did, until very recently, use a hybrid transmission (the Power-Split Device) sourced from Aisin Seiki, which, I believe, co-developed the original hybrid transmission with Toyota. Aisin Seiki is an auto parts manufacturer that is a member of the Toyota Group but it is NOT Toyota, and it is free to sell to any automakers, not just Toyota.

Ford did independently (with no help from Toyota) develop a parallel-serial hybrid system that is remarkably similar to Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive. Because of the similarity and the fear that Toyota would sue for patent infringement (at that time, Toyota was involved in its own hybrid system patent-infringement lawsuits), Ford decided to licence Toyota's technology; in return, Toyota gained access to Ford's gasoline direct-injection technology. Ford only gained use of Toyota's intellectual property but did not source any components directly from Toyota.

oldcajun

I talked with a retired Ford executive about the hybrid design and relations with Toyota. His perspective was that there was a lot of overlap that could have had the companies in court for years and made lawyers rich. Somehow, cooler heads prevailed and they agreed to share info and not sue each other. He doubted that any actual Toyota parts were ever used, but they did use the same suppliers.
Steve

mmarshall

From what Ford reps have told me, you are correct on the newer Ford hybrids, but the earlier ones, such as the 1Gen Escape Hybrid, did use Toyota-sourced parts under license. Regardless, either way, whoever owns the license or not, the new Fusion Hybrid has an excellent powertrain, steers/handles like a good German semi-sports sedan while still retaining at least some ride-comfort, and, IMO, is a pleasure to drive. Even 27K base and 34K list (which my test-car was), it is well-worth the money....I was quite impressed with this car, except for the overly-complex dash electronics and the head-banging rear roofline.

Fly4u

The 2013 Fusion Hybrid has a drivetrain significantly altered from the previous generation; a smaller 2 liter ICE and lighter lithium-ion battery pack. A downsized fuel capacity and other tweaks were supposed to score a 47 MPG rating, but the reality is otherwise.

I test drove and enjoyed the revised Fusion, but an not considering a trade at present. The sales advisor suggested it would yield at least the equivalent of my 2010 hybrid, (real-world 41.5) but that is tacit acceptance of an inevitable downgrade.

mmarshall

The reality may or may not be otherwise, depending on a number of factors, and one's driving habits. I've done at or close to the EPA's city, and bettered the EPA highway, figures on just about every car I've owned.

Fly4u

True, mileage may vary considerably depending on speed, style of driving, and technique, particularly in the case of hybrids.

Consumer Reports flagging of the Fusion Hybrid was the result of a considerable MPG shortfall in testing by a technically competent organization. Similar experiences related by owners of both generations of Fusion Hybrid on enthusiast forums gives me great pause. I've personally exceeded the EPA ratings with a 2010 version and have every confidence this will be the case should I choose an ES300h.

I had the impression EPA ratings over the years have become more "real world" and achievable by the average driver, but it seems very recent data suggests the testing can be gamed by overzealous manufacturers; ie. Hyundai and possibly Ford. (Not just the hybrids by the Ecoboost 4cyl engines)

Prospective buyers can do themselves and others a great service by interacting on forums as part of the pre-purchase chase. Of course, to many the search for a vehicle is painful drudgery best avoided as they regard vehicles as mere appliances! I doubt many of the latter category populate Club Lexus!