Toys4RJill

I don't believe that the Americans have caught up, a Toyota or Honda will still last longer.

One thing I know for sure is that there is zero chance that I will buy an American car/truck/Jeep.

mmarshall

Were you in a top-line Avalon Limited or a lesser model? The top-line Avalons are quite impressive inside.

No one here (and certainly not me) is comparing an Avalon to an LS.....I was comparing Avalon/ES. True, the LS is the finest regular-production car in the Lexus line-up...but it costs almost twice what the ES (the thread-topic) does. Some versions, such as the LS600H, cost almost three times as much.

mmarshall

The definition of an "American" car, today, means little except for the nationality of the company that actually sells it. Engines, transmissions, basic platforms, track-engineering, tires, and basic interiors.....all of that, and more (not to mention the actual assembly plants themselves, and the workers in them), can come from numerous different foreign countries; sometimes several different countries at the same time. Chrysler, once a classic "American" company, has been owned by two different European companies (Mercedes and Fiat), and both Ford and GM have extensive arms and operations in Europe and Asia, besides those here in the U.S.

My Buick Verano, for instance, has a GM world-platform Ecotec engine, American-designed 6-speed automatic, and the classic Buick sound insulation. But, aside from that, it has far more in common with the German Opel Astra sedan than it does with any traditional American-designed Buick. Like the Regal, it was taken from an Opel chassis/platform and given a rebadged Opel interior.

Another good example is the new Dodge Dart compact sedan...sold under the Dodge nameplate, with a generally Dodge-inspired interior, but derived from an Italian Alfa-Romeo chassis and Fiat drivetrains. This car, despite the Dodge nameplate, is about as "American" as a gondola in Venice.

LexBob2

Regarding the thread title, it's an interesting discussion topic, but in reality the ES isn't going away any time soon.

Sales YTD thru April = 21,923 +90%. Avalon sales = 23,846 +85%.

Both of these updated models are finding a big pool of buyers.

ssrfenton

The ES is built on the Camry platform and is an incredible entry level Lux sedan and a great money maker and shares many common parts as the mass production Camry. However ES styling is evolving more into its own...an interesting departure from previous generations.

I recall LS400 launch. It was really something. A new everything. And Lexus made sure we knew it. There was nothing to compare it too and many suggested it would end the entire brand if it wasn't up to the hype. The tooling costs were astronomical for the time as everything was one off.

Two completely different approaches to the same brand. Both successful, it will go down in auto history what has been accomplished.

mmarshall

Agreed. It's too much of a icon in the entry-luxury field to fade away in the near future.

So the new Avalon, so far, is actually outselling ithe ES? Not surprising. I told Mike (truthfully) in an earlier post, that I myself wasn't making any numerical predictions for either car this year, but that it would be interesting to see how well the Avalon did. So far, from the numbers you post, not bad at all. Apparantly, a number of the Avalon's traditional die-hard fans are not only forgiving its stiffer ride now (detracting from its former cushy-comfort), but it may also be attracting some new buyers.

ssrfenton

All this is true but even now BMW, Toyota, Hyundai, Honda.....are assembled in our shores but viewed as imports. One ongoing aspect is the labor pool UAW vs Right To Work States. Many American autos are now thought of as UAW assembled auto and Imports are where the profits go. A great topic of cultural discussion.

mmarshall

The LS400, though not perfect (the brake rotors, for example, were not up to the car's weight, and tended to warp from heat build-up), was, nevertheless, a superb attempt, and showed the world that a Japanese company could do a full-size V8 luxury car, at a reasonable price, as well or better than anything coming out of America or Europe. I agree that it (and, to a much lesser extent, the Infiniti Q45) turned the luxury-car buisness upsize down. But Lexus wasn't the only success story that year.....1990 was also the year that Saturn debuted, leading to one of the greatest success stories of the 1990s...until GM royally screwed up the division after 2000. And, unfortunately, the LS400's price didn't stay low very long...it climbed quickly in the first several years.

mmarshall

I agree, but we don't want to get too far off the current thread topic (as I myself have partly done) .....the new Lexus ES and its future.

LexFather

Problem for you who ain't buying it anyway. Not a problem for the consumers or Lexus who are. BTW, maybe read up on how Germans package their cars.

Honda is an American brand. They sell and build more cars here than in Japan. Their entire Acura lineup will be made here for here except the RLX. Multiple brands build cars here for here by Americans. Don't let the badge fool you.

The Avalon is cheaper it should sell better.

Mike728

No, it's now built on the Avalon platform.

Yes, it's outselling the ES, but hasn't it always? I'm just using the % increase as my basis. 90% increase for the ES, vs. 85% for the Avalon.

Gojirra99

Also, there are far more Toyota dealers than Lexus dealers. I think there are still certain areas in the country where proximity to a Lexus dealer is a problem for potential buyers.

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

Like one Lexus dealer in Idaho..

Fly4u

I haven't waded through the entire volume of this thread, but my thoughts are: Avalon and ES are competitors with a slight perceived qualitative advantage to the Lexus derivation. Killing the ES makes good sense if Toyota/Lexus seek to further stratify both brands and push Lexus toward greater exclusivity. As it stands currently, the line between both are a bit blurred, but this may have advantage. An ES customer may be tempted to keep future purchases "in the family." In the absence of the ES, many buyers would gravitate to the Avalon and might peruse other entry-luxury options down the road in the absence of brand loyalty.

As far as Lexus dealer scarcity in some regions is concerned, isn't it possible to have them serviced at Toyota dealerships? I'd think the availability of exclusive Lexus parts would be problematic, but today's distribution system would minimize the delay for all but the heaviest/bulky items.

mmarshall

Good point, Andrew. In the D.C. area, there aren't any real shortage of Lexus dealers, but, in general, local Toyota shops outnumber them by about three or four to one. Local Toyota radio/TV advertising, by sheer volume, also swamps that of Lexus.