SW17LS

I'm just saying you can't knock the Equus for not being quite the quality of the S Class given the disparity in price.

Value is important at all levels.

I agree, I think they made a mistake by not launching a luxury brand and division in the US. The only thing that kept me out of a Genesis or Equus was the fact that its a Hyundai.

I would say though, if I were buying a midmarket car, I would buy a Hyundai over a Toyota.

It really is funny, all of the comments here are exactly what was said about Lexus back in 1989.

TRDFantasy

Your LS example was out of context and yet another unnecessary jab at Lexus. This discussion is about the Equus, not the LS.

Also since you didn't get the point of my reply, let me clarify. The LS was an exception to the value quotient *at that point in time*. It redefined the "you get what you pay for" quotient at the time, since it innovated in many areas and was superior to the segment leaders in quite a number of ways.

SW17LS

I think any statement that one of the longest time moderators of this site, with 10+ years and 40k posts is taking "unnecessary jabs at Lexus" is more than a little ridiculous,

To discuss the merits of the Equus is not to diminish Lexus or the LS.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Which is my point that Hyundai is elevating itself to a more "upscale" (I didn't say premium) level. The likes of Chrysler.

I love to use the Kia is to Dodge as Hyundai is to Chrysler. Ford and defunct Mercury. Chevy and (more premium now) Buick.

A slight edge in refinement and posh over the more mainstream

SW17LS

The difference is that The Equus and the Genesis really are excellent vehicles that offer first class luxury quality. Chrysler has never done that.

For instance, sit in a Genesis and then sit in an ES.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

If that's the case then people can't "really" compare the two. That's all the bugs me. Are they both Full size RWD sedans? Yes. Do they cater to two different types of people? Yes. End of story

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Right but do you get my point? Kia's are cheaper than Hyundai's. Dodges are cheaper than Chryslers. It's all about "stepping up" so to speak.

Try the new 300C. It makes you go, Chrysler?

Don't get me started on the ES. I think I've trashed that car ever since a few certain threads popped up recently

trexlexus

The Equus is nice and all but the reason it sells low is because it lacks the brand, as discussed earlier. We know it hit sales targets, but that doesn't mean it is a great asset to have.

Honestly, there are too many premium cars in Hyundai's stable at the moment. The Azera, Genesis, and Equus all are fighting for sales. This is also the same brand that sells 14.5k Accents. This is the same problem that cursed the US Phaeton. It is a little wierd to be a Phaeton (Equus) shopper who is looking at cars inside the same dealer building as the shopper who is looking at a Golf (Accent).

Those who can afford the nice cars want to feel "a cut above".

Hyundai should rethink their lineup strategy, axe the Equus, and focus on improving their Accent to Azera (maybe Genesis) stable. They are doing pretty good at improving already. It's all about that money. Take a look at the big boys of Toyota vs. the big boys of Jaguar. One is non luxury, the other isn't. One is wildly successfuly, the other is not so much.

SW17LS

I think people would say the same thing about the LS vs the S Class quite frankly.

And Toyotas are cheaper than Lexuses. I get your point, I just don't see where you are going with it. Consider the Genesis and the Equus another brand at Hyundai entirely, they may as well be, they don't share mechanicals or platforms.

The new 300 is very nice, I have a WK2 Jeep Grand Cherokee so I know Chrysler is improving. The 300 is not as nice as a Genesis though, as an example.

Seeing that I just paid $60,000 for a car, I can tell you what people who can afford these cars want. Yes, there are many buyers who are brand conscious, I am to a certain extent. I will admit, the only reason I got my 2010 ES over a Genesis was I couldn't bring myself to trade a Lexus in on a Hyundai. I drove the Genesis again in 2013 and loved it even more. Still, brand got to me.

However, there is definitely a group of buyers out there who by the virtue of having come up through the recession don't have the same draw to brand. They like the idea of flying under the radar, and brand's effects on up and coming generations are yet to be seen.

People at all price points want value, and these cars bring a lot of value to the table. Nobody is saying that people are going to leave the S Class in droves, but perhaps a buyer that might ultimately wind up in an S Class winds up in an Equus instead. Or someone who was going to buy a C class buys a Genesis instead to get a model class up for the same money, and then moves on to an Equus.

I completely disagree. Seeing that their sales are growing across all lines, you see them everywhere, I would say what they are doing is working.

Would it surprise you to know that VW is bringing the Phaeton back in 2014? Remember now they sell $65,000 VW Toureg's handily, they sell $45,000 loaded VW CC's. A loaded Jeep Grand Cherokee is $57,000, a loaded Explorer is $55,000.

How can Ford sell a $55,000 Explorer, yet a $55,000 Equus is a stupid idea?

The market is different than it was 10, even 5 years ago.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Compare a 2007 LS460 to a 2007 S550 and the Lexus wins nearly every category save for that ole "German handling" line. You said it yourself The Lexus on the other hand is right on par in quality and every category with the S-Class (save for two things 1. badge and 2. a plethora of power trains).

The Equus competition is the Phaeton (2015 in 2014) not Tier 1's. If you want to throw the Equus into a comparison with a LS, S, 7, A8 and XJ it's because they are all full size RWD sedans. Not because they are in the same tier.

Can this change? Sure give Hyundai 10 years and a luxury division. Till then Hyundai is an upscale make from mainstream. Some premium models at the far end of the model line-up but nothing remotely worthy of Tier 1 status. To quote trexlexus - I got a good chuckle out of that one

I didn't use Toyota is to Lexus because Lexus is a Tier 1. Let's stick with what they are, Kia, Hyundai, Dodge, Chrysler. Also rating automakers; Mainstream, Upscale, Premium and Tier 1. The point was you said , which I don't fully agree with. Great vehicles yes. They offer luxury amenities but are not first class, nor does offering luxury items (that you can find on many mainstream cars) make it "luxurious" so to speak. In a few years perhaps they should consider an actual dedicated luxury division. Till then these are nice Hyundai's that's all.

Curious as to which 300 you sampled. As I found both the 300 and Genesis on par with each other. Nice features, content and some nice materials - other cost cutting measures and some cheap materials

SW17LS

I agree, however I would wonder how many $100k+ S Class buyers truly consider an LS460. If you ask them the answer is typically no (I know plenty of them)

Have you driven an Equus to comment on how it compares to an LS? I have and found it pretty darn comparable in a lot of ways. Ask CL member "Kansas", an LS owner for 23 years what he thinks of the Equus.

As to the S vs the LS. The S is clearly a step above the LS IMHO. You pay a big premium, no doubt but its an echelon higher. Bigger, more imposing, way more options and creature comforts. I personally don't really get it and my money would buy the LS, or perhaps an A8, but the S class is the ultimate full size luxury sedan.

But how does one define a "tier"? I personally thought the previous Phaeton was about the best car in its class back when it was sold here, offering quality, construction, solidity that you didn't find for tens of thousands of dollars more.

When you look at the specs, the Equus competes. When you look at size, amenities, ride and drive, its very comparable. What makes it a lesser "tier"? They don't have the brand, but as I've said for some people thats a plus.

Have you driven them? The Genesis and Equus are great cars.

Says you. I think BMW and MB owners would put Lexus, Infiniti and maybe Audi on a lower tier. I still feel a Lexus doesn't have the same brand prestige as a BMW or Mercedes.

Its all about brand for you, and thats fine. Those people are always going to be there. However, there are plenty of consumers out there that not only don't care about brand, they don't want the attention or the statement that a luxury brand makes. They want the quality, the amenities, and the driving experience, but they would just as well let people assume its a Passat, or a Sonata. As the younger generations come to the point where they can buy such cars, you're going to see it even more.

I drove a fully loaded 300C. Its very nice, but the Genesis is more refined on the road, better materials inside, better fit and finish throughout. Bear in mind too the Genesis is pretty old...

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Don't disagree with your second paragraph at all and no 'jab' was made at Lexus and the LS at all, I was simply using it for comparison in value and what you get for what you pay. You pretty much always slam Hyundai regardless of the merits (which you're absolutely entitled to do) but I can point out where I think your 'jab's aren't credible.

At least they HAVE a very powerful v8 rwd large luxury sedan. Does Cadillac even offer a v8 these days? Acura sure doesn't. Does Buick? Lincoln? Lexus has the LS but that's it (in sedans). Hyundai has the Genesis too for now at least.

Even if the Equus does nothing more than make the competition better, I for one am happy it exists!

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

If you're buying a $100k+ S-Class its about the badge. Plain and simple.

Driven no. Sat in yes.

Other than a Rolls or Bentley, the S-Class is the nicest in it's segment but the 7-Series, A8, LS and XJ are all right there. The Equus can't match the power of those badges.

The general consensus throughout society, automakers, and CL says that Lexus, MBZ, BMW, Jaguar, Audi are all Tier 1.

Phaeton was pretty cool. Where else could you get a full size sedan with a W12 in it?! Part of the problem VW faced was they wanted to make it more part of their sales numbers than elevating the brand by offering such a vehicle. To that end, its sales figures were dismal.

The badge is the problem. If they want to come out with a Luxury division then so be it. Fine good. But it is a Hyundai and the masses will not see past that from a company that produces the Hyundai Accent. Is it fair? No, but its the truth. Read my thread "Unequal Automakers" and you'll see that simply because of a badge, European makes always get a pass over their American, Japanese and Korean Counterparts.

Never driven the Equus. Sat in it. Friend of mine just got a new Genesis 5.0 R-Spec. Fun car but I'd never own one.

Says me? Says my above comment. Society, forums, automakers and a general CL consensus says that BMW, MB, Audi, Lexus and Jaguar are all Tier 1. You've given me a great idea for a new thread topic though. Stay tuned

I'll give you that

trexlexus

I 100% agree with you that peoople who look for value exist. But when youget to the point of spending 50k+, the amount of income you have can usually "make you spend more" for a bit of panache.
The Touareg does NOT start at 65k. Explorer does NOT start at 55k. You are using loaded cars to compare to the base price of other cars, that is a little unfair. Let me option out an Avalon to 48K and laugh in the face of those poor people who spend 47k on a base BMW 5.

I assume you live in America. Ever see those big honking F350s/Silverado HD 3500s? Those big boys cost 65k fully loaded. And I am probably understating it too. Those things carry with them the most mainstream badges you will ever see. Ford/Chevy. And not to mention they are also WORK TRUCKS. People buy them and drive them even if they dont own a ranch. They buy them for the image of "tough" etc, and they also HAVE MONEY.

Noone is going to argue the class of a base BMW 5, over an F350. Even if that truck costs more.

Why did i bring that up? Because we are talking about cars and their roles. The trucks above, costing as much as some full size luxury sedan MSRPs, have a role to fulfill. They occupy the niche of "Big work truck". There is a reason why the Toyota Tundra cannot penetrate into the market very well. Even worse, how many Honda Ridgelines/Nissan Titans do you see compared to the Toyota? When people go for something of high dollar value, brand loyalty is extreme. Sure, like you said earlier, some people (Tundras) will convert. But the vast majority stay loyal (Ford/Chevy/Ram).

VW in America has a niche as a mainstream car brand. The Phaeton may be coming back, but I am not sure if it will come back as a 12 cylinder powerhouse. Even though it was impressive, few cared, a la it's extinction in the early 2000s.

Unfortunately, Hyundai also has a mainstream badge. Few will justify paying a big premium for a massive Accent. Some will. Most wont.
Talk to the people who are car-ignorant. They are the real money makers for the auto industry. Not us enthusiasts.

Here is a general scale of reactions in the US you will see whenever you tell someone you bought a:

Toyota/Hyundai/Ford etc: Oh, that's a nice car.
Buick/Acuras etc.: Hey thats a nice car!
Lexus/BMW/Audi/MB: Ohhhhh.... Niceeeeee.
Bentley: Wow....
RR: Those who are familiar: Wow.
Most who aren't: Huh?
Lambos/Ferraris/exotics: OMG!

On this board, we are car lovers, so we passionately talk about things in the market, and how automakers are doing etc. But outside of this lovely world, people don't care. They just need an appliance that will get them from A to B. Some just like nicer appliances. Few even have the notion that Lexus is a Super Toyota. Lexus has become a household luxury name.
Take a little spin down to the local college campuses, and see what hides within the student parking lots. Kids are the ones who care about image the most. How many times do you see a makeup adorned teenager vs. a makeup adorned mother of 2? There are exceptions to the rule, but the rule stands. At my campus, a nice, black Aston Martin V12 Vantage prowls the student garage. Does the driver know what V12 stands for, where AM is from? Probably not, and seeing the way she drives, she probably doesnt need all 12 cylinders.

Luxury cars abound on campus. Kids drive to impress other kids. The market that cares less will be the child rearing one, because they need the minivans.

amphipri0n

I've heard you make this claim before and have to say that I have seen the current generation Genesis, and while I'm obviously biased towards the ES, I do keep an open mind. Yes, there are more soft rubberized surfaces on the Genesis, the interior fit and trim seems solid and tight, but overall the interior is plain and cheap. lol, I don't know how anyone can read the interior as "first class luxury"... Maybe business class in some respects, but certainly not first.

From the tiny, anemic looking segmented LCD digital clock, the excessive play that the center controls have (most notably the temperature and preset buttons) to the fact the auto-up on the windows slam shut instead of slowing down the last few inches of travel, this car does not have the refinement or attention to detail that Toyota has in the ES. The only touch item that felt truly high end and solid is the rotary **** for the Nav. You criticize the plastics on the ES's lower panels, but did you touch the steering wheel on the Genesis?? Wow the entire center area is completely made of the same shiny, cheap plastic across Hyundai's "lesser" models-- that's primo hand/touch real estate and pretty unforgivable.

If anything I'd say Hyundai did a nicer job with the exterior than the interior in terms of evoking luxury, albeit derivative. I would say the Genesis is closing in on the ES and has surpassed it in several areas, but not in the overall interior department. It still needs an extra dose of Kim Chee for that.