Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Congrats on your GS. The build quality and materials used are superb. This is one of my main concerns with the 3IS. Whether or not it follows the GS or ES. I'll be able to tell you guys on April 4th when I go to train on it.

SW17LS

Just because nobody else is doing it doesn't mean Hyundai won't be successful. One does not have to copy the way their competitors do business to be successful. If Hyundai is achieving what they want to achieve with the setup they are using, who are you to say they should kill anything in their lineup? Why would killing the premium models allow them to improve the lower end models? They've improved plenty as it is.

Hyundai is not a luxury marque, nor are they trying to be. They are a mainstream marque that focuses on value and quality that offers premium models that, in addition to mainstream models, offer the quality, comfort, performance and style of luxury branded vehicles for lower cost. Consider them the Vizio of the auto industry.

Then you don't agree with me. I'm saying there are plenty of people out there to whom brand is not the most important thing, far more than there were before the economic downturn.

Not Nissan, and Toyota's reputation for "untouchable reliability" is not what it was before all the recalls and bad press.

But look at where Hyundai is today vs where they were 10 years ago. Think where they will be in another 5 or 10 years.

Remember that in the 70s a Toyota or Honda was a complete joke in the US, the lowest of cheap economical transport. Its really only because of the oil crisis that Americans started buying them, and it stuck. Hyundai is taking advantage of a similar opportunity in the shifts in the marketplace following the great recession. This experience has shaped an entire generation of American consumers, millenials are more value conscious, more conservative financially, in general a lot more similar to the greatest generation than the baby boomers, or gen X or Y. Another thing about younger generations? They care a whole lot less about cars. They care more about technology and how their car will play thjeir music and interact with the internet than they do brand, or heritage.

Huge opportunity for a company that specializes in "just as good, but cheaper" like Hyundai. The past will be a forgotten memory, as it is for Toyota.

trexlexus

We dont have to see eye to eye on everything. I agree with you on some things, just not everything.
That is very true. I am no fortune teller, so I do not know what the future holds for that company.
When you push out a car like the Equus, it is hard to convince me that you are not trying to "luxury" your image. The premium (not high end) makes like Volvo, Acura, and (maybe) Infiniti do not offer anything in that large full size segment. As well, the Equus directly competes with the other full size flagships, something the premiums have no say against. Hyundai seems to have overstepped a category.
I know they have faltered. A lot of people know as well. However, that has not stopped them from selling extremely high volumes. Even with their little nicks they are still among the top when it comes to go-to brands. The sales numbers tell all.
Heritage, I agree, most do not care much about anymore. Brand on the other hand is extremely important to the young folks. Young people buy brand name clothing that is worse quality than cheap, durable clothes from WalMart. They do it just so they can "rock that particular t-shirt". Logos and brands are really important because when you are young, you are still trying to your best to impress whoever passes by. Hopefully it will be the opposite sex (basic biology). Same goes with cars. Even though, some may not care about what their car has to offer in terms of performance, the logo that they carry is important to them.

I agree Toyota is becoming too complacent with where they are now. Getting too comfortable might cost them their future.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

In 10 years it will be the Chinese building "the lowest of cheap economical transportation" for the US. Everything else will have appreciated and cost an arm, leg, and your first born. $60,000 Chevy Equinox and $100,000 MBZ C250

SW17LS

Again, why have they overstepped just because they are he only mainstream brand to sell something in that category? Everybody doesn't have to go about business the same way. Your thinking is too one dimensional.

Obviously they are trying to improve their image, but if they were interested in being a luxury marque they would have created a separate division.

Broaden your mind, everything doesn't have to fit into some arbitrary framework. If they can sell a $60k large luxury sedan and sell them at sufficient volume for their needs, then that is a success.

This is not something I am just making up. I am not in the car business, I am however in an industry that does direct retail with consumers, and we have looked into this extensively. We've had consultants come in and train us on the shifting nature of American consumers from gen X to Y to the millennial (some people lump Y and the millennial together). The latter part of Gen Y and the early Millenial (we're talking people born in the late 80s/early 90s), the generation who were in college/just out of college during the Great Recession absolutely has less allegiance to brand, more conservative fiscal ideology, and they are less apt to pay for intangible benefits. This is scholarly fact, and our experience doing business with this generation supports that.

Bear in mind, that unemployment for new college graduates is as high as 50% depending on what stats you're looking at. A lot of these people are not even able to support themselves at all, living at home, and that's going to shape their consumer behavior and the behavior of their peers who are employed over their entire lives, as living through th Great Depression did for the Greatest Generation.

Google it, there is a lot of data out there.

Could very well be, and Hyundai will be where? Upmarket

SW17LS

Some articles for you:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/85broads...eprioritizing/

http://consciouslifenews.com/millenn...ility/1136270/

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/01...n_2500697.html

This is very real

LexFather

It makes absolutely NO SENSE for them to cancel the Equus. NONE. This is not a car that didn't meet its sales goal (while small) here. It exceeded it. They sold more in 2012 than in 2011. It is obvious there is a small market for this vehicle and it is elevating the Hyundai brand.

Its quite easy for anyone to say "oh they need to start a luxury marque" but that is no guarantee of success, just ask some of those struggling brands. Hyundai has excelled where VW flopped with the Phaeton.

I know it might be hard for a Lexus fan to give it credit since it obviously ripped the LS (and the fanbois just crap on Lexus ignoring they copied Lexus) but it hasn't really taken sales away from the LS or S-class etc. It seems to just be a new offering that takes here and there. A few from my understanding are shipped back to Korea since its cheaper here.

What Hyundai did with the Equus took some major major MAJOR ***** and they hit the mark with it. No it didn't re-invent the class or make the tier one brands blink but its here and doing well and as we can see only getting better.

The next generation could be something. I applaud Hyundai for the efforts!

trexlexus

Your points make sense in the fact that younger people often do not have the funds to procure an expensive item. I dont see anything wrong with that statement, as the term "broke college student" is very apparent in my campus.

But the point im trying to make is, even if they cannot afford something, they still very much DESIRE to own something that is prestigious. And therein lies to brand/logo factor. Just because someone cant do something, does not mean they do not want to do it.

If they settle for a lower priced car that is fine, but that doesn't change the fact that the badge is important.

I dont doubt you, nor do i ever accuse you of making anything up. Notice i have never made any personal attacks against you, nor have i made any snide comments. I am merely talking about the issue at hand here, which is Hyundai's badge.
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All i am trying to say here is that selling cars is fine if you are under the $40k mark. Any upstart brand has equal power because that is mainstream. But move past that, and you run into troubles because brand starts to matter. It's just a simple matter of brand vs. generic. That happens everywhere in retail. The brand costs more. It might not be a better product, but it costs more. Since Hyundai's Equus can run 60k, i see that as a problem. Brand matters even more when you reach the upper echelons above 150k. Bentley and RR are the only players now for a reason. Maybach wasn't a bad car, but it didnt have brand notoriety. Same reason why S65 AMGs cant compete volume wise. I dont doubt the S class is a great car.

Just my opinions of course.

mmarshall

Non-"luxury" automakers, though, if they put their minds to it, have shown that can make some pretty good "luxury" cars. Prime examples (among others) are the VW Phaeton, Nissan Cima, Toyota Century, and, of course, the Equus. Not all of them, though, have been successful.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

contrary to some views, brand (or to use the pretentious auto term, 'marque') is NOT very important to MANY car buyers. which is why the ranking of an overall brand or marque doesn't mean much either to many. they look at individual models, perhaps what they see on the road, what a friend/relative/co-worker bought, or an ad on tv.

when i bought a honda prelude (my first car), i didn't care about any other honda.
when i bought a lexus gs (my fourth car), i didn't care about any other lexus.
when i bought a ford explorer (fifth car), i didn't care about any other ford.

i bought what was right for me.

seriously, when going into showrooms for vehicles, i found most of the other models of each brand almost completely uninteresting, or worse.

amphipri0n

As a veteran/reformed BMWer, if one factor, say hard plastics in lower areas of the interior, are enough to exclude an entire vehicle from being called luxury (or entry-luxury in the ES's case) despite all of its other merits, it is a blanket statement. One that should be applied to all other vehicles equally which would have a whole lot of the BMWs and Mercs on the road magically stripped of their status. You being a 10 year Lexus ES veteran, I won't assume you've spent a lot of time in the German brands, but in fact hard touch plastics have been their standard for quite some time, in all but recent years

Also, unless they changed something since my test drive of the GS early last year, I recall the bottom panels of the center console being pretty hard plastic and not being softly padded like the rest of the construction.

I went the opposite direction, I was originally looking at cross-shopping the GS and I found that while the appointments were a step up from the previous generation GS (the version that made me want a GS in the first place) I couldn't get over how overly Teutonic it all looked. This coupled with a front end that I still am trying to understand along with a ride that was too sporty over the 405 during slow stop & go, it forced me into an ES instead, I too am quite happy

But back to Hyundai:
That is exactly the issue, Hyundai isn't a luxury brand but they are positioning products clearly in that territory. Whether they decide to spinoff a luxo brand is another story, but as-is, it will keep getting passed by people like Kansas who you provided as an example. Even though he found materials and the quality comparable to the LS, he still didn't make the purchase.

Not to mention, you who actually cross shopped the Hyundai but ultimately decided to lease the GS over the Equus because .

It's the brand/image/prestige of an Equus being a Hyundai that is its biggest detractor.

trexlexus

Honestly, judging from my past posts, you can see I think brand is important. People buy things out of loyalty as well as the specific merits of each model within the brand. Toyota as a whole is reliable. Individual Ts may not match up to the brand standard.

The reason why i push brand as significant is because the auto industry is no different than other retail sectors, especially concerning non-enthusiasts. We can all agree that Consumer Reports is pretty well respected among the average buyer. Even though we may not agree with the rankings, the superficial reports that the magazine posts have influence over the buying habits of consumers. After all, to most people, cars are just appliances to get from A to B. Why do we buy Maytag washers or brand name food stuffs? Just our normal mindset over perceived quality. I know for a fact that people certainly say "I'm kind of a Ford guy" or chevy guy. We've all heard that.

Again, i must say that I am unsure of Hyundai's future success with the way they line their products. But i do agree with some people on here, that the Equus is a very nice car, and can be a worthy competitor.

SW17LS

This is where you are wrong. They do not have the same drive for consumer desire that older generations have. Did you read the links I posted?

Cars also aren't the focus for them that they were for older generations either. This is obviously in the abstract, not everyone fits the mold but as a group millenials are less consumer oriented, less motivated by brand, and more financially conservative than their parents. This is widely accepted as fact, do some research. As this generation ages and takes over as the primary consumer in the marketplace there are going to be BIG changes.

Absolutely they can. My point is the market climate now, and the market climate projected over the next 20 years is going to help them be more successful than they have been in the past.

Things are going to get real expensive folks. Real expensive.

I would agree with this statement about the german brands 100%. I've always wanted a BMW or Mercedes, but when I sit in them I'm always turned off. They're better nowadays in the material department, but the design is an issue for me.

The materials down low on the dash and doors on the GS are certainly lower quality than those up high, but they are still not hard, semi-glossy plastic as found in the 2013 ES. They are still padded, although more thinly padded, and more matte and uniform looking with the rest of the materials. Similar quality to the materials used in these areas on my 03 ES. My 10 ES had padded plastics in most of these areas as well, but not as nice as those on my 13 GS.

I agree with this too on the base and F Sport cars. IMHO the GS really needs the warmth of the linear espresso wood and the AVS suspension in the luxury model makes it ride great.

Absolutely, and I have admitted that several times, that I am still hung up on the brand. But, there are plenty of buyers who aren't. One day when I'm retired and no longer worried about impressing people and clients, I may be one of them.

Its not really any different, no. The erosion of the importance of brand though is also not limited to the auto industry, its becoming less and less important everywhere.

trexlexus

Yes I read. Any article will have an opposing side. In this case, i have some of my own.

When i talk about young generations, i am talking about my peers. I know for a fact what my peers think about brands and the atmosphere they convey. Remember how you told me you were in the $50k buying demographic? I am in the young demographic. I definately see the spending habits/desires that go on in here. Financially conservative is a term that can be taken subjectively. It is a given that most young folks are conservative with money simply because they do not have the amount of money their parents have. They havent had chance to accumulate wealth yet, but that does not mean they wont in the future. It also does not mean they do not desire the niceties in life. No amount of research is needed for the fact that: People like have/get more and more. I want more and more money, very few people would say they do not. Same goes with the young crowd.

As a further exemplification of the young and brand names, there is a very strong reason why luxury makers try to cater to the blooming teeny boppers. The push downmarket by these luxury brands is there because they know the young, though not as wealthy, are more apt to spend money on things to impress their peers. We are seeing more and more sub $40k luxury vehicles. Some have been criticized as not deserving the badge they carry, but the purpose of their existence is to catch the younger crowd. Those vehicles would not exist, if the need to spread the badge was not apparent.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...028358584.html
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articl...ury.aspx#page1
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SW10ES: Both of us have been beating this horse to death for multiple pages. It is obvious that neither will convince the other. But that is the beauty of opinions, everyone has their own. I am getting a little tired of talking about the Badge vs. Equus thing and i don't want to continue for much longer. I have thoroughly enjoyed talking about this subject with you. With that being said, I offer a friendly handshake.

SW17LS

How old exactly are you? I'm talking about people of your generation who are out of college and out working and supporting themselves. High school and college agers who are still being supported are a different thing. As you read in one of the articles one of the people interviewed said "The last time I was excited about a car was when I was in high school". A tremendous amount of change happens between high school, college, and adulthood.

I'm in the real estate business, and I have been involved in filling the housing needs of people in their 20s and I can tell you that there is a marked difference between a buyer between about 22-30 years old, and one 30-40 years old. The younger buyers are less willing to take on large debt, they want more cash reserves, they want to allocate less of their income to their housing expense, and in a lot of situations they just want to rent. Its not only that they "don't have any money", a lot of younger people have good incomes and family money, and they have a drive to save that people between 30-40 do not.

That carrys over into transportation as well. Its not to say that they don't want nice things, they do but they are less willing to take on debt and spend heavily to get things than older generations. High school and college kids talking about things are one thing, but what they do when they get out on their own and start making decisions with their own money is whats at issue here.

This is not so much the case as it is that they need to have less expensive models to get younger people to buy their product over less expensive marques.

Your article makes my point:

This shows the shift in focus, focused on the phone not the car.

Thats fine, we'll just have to wait and see how it hashes out...but I know I am right. You'll see.