amphipri0n

I think you hit the nail on the head.

These are my thoughts exactly. Based on what I've read of other owner's experiences as well as my own, '13 ES owners are pretty happy. (with an odd exception of someone in the ES forum supposedly trading in for an RLX because he wasn't happy with the subwoofer ) GS owners are happy as well, and sales numbers for both reflect the fact that Lexus has done well.

Also agree completely that the most vocal critics are those who don't actually own the vehicle (your sideline quarterbacks) and add no value when they say things like.

If anything it serves as hate-bait which is pointless.

Outrage

I purchased a 2013 GS 350 and never cross-shopped the (then) 2012 ES 350. I did look at the 2012 IS 350, however. I don't think the vehicles (GS versus ES) appeal to the same demographic.

trexlexus

The ES is what makes Lexus unique among the luxury brands. It is the only luxury brand with 2 different entry/mid (depending on how you view the ES) sedans. This has helped Lexus top US luxury sales charts. And thus it is, in my opinion, a good move.

People who want to enter Lexus, but dont want that small IS, will probably go ES.
People who want something that doesnt cost as much as a GS, but dont want the small IS will go ES.

Sure it is is a dressed up Camry/Avalon, but it is good for sales and probably great for profit. Adding a few leather pieces and switches, then selling it for 10k more than its platform mates seems like a solid business move.

For those who complain about the GS sales being cannibalized by ES, I see where you are coming from, but the GS has never particularly sold well in relative comparison to its stablemates. It has been the black sheep of the family. Yes, that is the ES's partial fault, but look at it in the long run. The ES's cash cow status brings more profit to Lexus and thus brings more money for R&D for future GS models. Be thankful, not hateful .

And let us not forget the historical importance of ES. In 1989, when the original LS arrived, it had a sidekick. That sidekick would later become the sales star (not counting RX). That sidekick was named ES.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

thread title fixed.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Lexus shot themselves in the foot when they offered rental grade materials on that car. Seriously, how pathetic.

spwolf

not sure if competition is any better? I have been in base F30 and it has Corolla type materials everywhere.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Base model BMW's are notorious for poor materials too (just proves people buy for the badge). Ever sit in a 2006 325i or a 2008 528i?

Sure they drive nice, but the interiors typically leave a lot to be desired.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

and this from someone who works at a lexus dealer.

es is really that bad? i've not sat in one. from all the pics i've seen though, yeah, it seems like a lot more hard plastic and simple textures/areas than say, the gs. in the end it's all about cost and price point. the es is the lexus volume seller and like the cheaper volume toyota, the camry, they're plenty 'good enough' for their intended buyer, who is in no way as discriminating as you.

SW17LS

As someone who has owned 2 ES's, a 2003 and a 2010 I personally find the continued reduction in material and build quality to be pretty bad yes. I don't think it would be so affronting if I had not owned the previous two generations of ES. There were significant reductions in quality from my 03 to my 2010, but for the most part they were where one does not touch or even see regularly. My issue with the 2013 ES is that they are now reducing material quality where it is plainly obvious in areas such as the trim around the door handles, air vents, removing the wood trim from the console, reduced leather quality, on the outside replacing the nice rolled and welded chrome exhaust tips with awful clip on tips. I feel like they took a car that used to really stand above the crowd at the price point in terms of quality, that felt like a much more expensive car than it was and made it middle of the road at best, or even not quite average in a lot of respects.

Seeing that Toyota announced they were upgrading plastic quality in the new Camry after only a year, obviously someone else has noticed. I've said it before, IMHO Toyota now makes some of the crappiest interiors on the road, and I am very upset to see that spreading to Lexus.

This was absolutely my feeling, which is why I upgraded to the GS. Thankfully the leases were so aggressive on the GS that it didn't cost me much more. If they had not been, I'm afraid Lexus would have lost me to a competitor.

The GS is every bit the Lexus I wanted, and the little things that the ES lacks really become apparent when you live with the GS from day to day. Its just so much more refined in every way, from the way the shifter glides through the gear selections, to the materials, to the solidity on the road. Its pretty remarkable...especially when you realize I'm paying $40 a month more than a premium/luxury package ES.

Mike728

That's the thing. Some people lease, basically renting, while others purchase. There's a huge difference in expectations between the two. My priorities lean towards longer term value.

SW17LS

That statement has absolutely no relevance to the fact that Lexus has dramatically decontented the ES this generation, both in material quality and in content. The difference to the GS is so dramatic because they have improved the GS so much while reducing the quality of the ES' interior so much. I compared the ES to the GS both times and never felt like the GS was worth the additional money until now.

Whether one leases or purchases is beside the point, I lease for business and tax reasons and because I like to trade every few years. Had I decided to purchase I would have made the same decision.

FWIW, about 80% of Lexus vehicles are leased.

LexFather

My data shows 43% of Lexua are leased much much lower than the competition. I think the current ES is a fine Lexus, I agree the center console and doors are lacking but it is 10k less than a GS. Overall I think it's superb and the hybrid is amazing.

It's not for us and the GS F sport was right up our alley and the GS has some things lacking too.

I just HATE the recent trend of creating strife and crap by people who have no interest in either car. I find ES owners very reasonable and polite here and they don't say dumb **** like some of the competition that their car is GS/5/E etc based on size. They know what they are buying and happy with it.

We need to all stand together against those here trying to divide the GS/ES group of owners and put them in their place. It's a pathetic attempt at trolling and riling up feathers.

Again ES and GS owners are happy and people clearly buy the two for different reasons. They have co-existed for decades. Oddly some people have dragged the GS to the ES instead of the IS.

SW17LS

I'd like to see that stat because thats not what I've seen and been told by the finance people at Lexus I've dealt with. I have also seen that the number is lower than with BMW and Mercedes, but not that low.

But its always been $10k less than a GS and has never had those shortcomings before.

My point is not so much to compare the ES to the GS, but to compare the ES to the ES of the past. It frustrates me as a Lexus enthusiast and as a former ES owner that they've made cost cutting decisions on this volume model that is pretty synonymous with Lexus that IMHO reduce the overall quality perception of the brand.

I shouldn't sit in a Ford Taurus, or a Hyundai Azera or Genesis, or a Jeep Grand Cherokee, or a Chrysler 300, or a Buick and feel like the interior is higher quality than that of my Lexus...whether its an ES or not. And with this ES I feel that way about all those vehicles. When I bought my first ES in '03 there was literally nothing that could come close to the quality or luxury for $15,000...and its just not that way now...I would give the nod to several vehicles as having, not even interiors as good...but better...for the same or less money. Yes the competition has gotten much better, but Lexus needs to get better as a response to that, not just throw up their hands and say "Eh, its good enough!".

The ES should be 90% the quality inside of the GS, it always has been before. The new GS is better than the 3GS in that regard, but the new ES should be too.

trexlexus

For yall who complain about the latest 2013 ES being low grade due to poor material choice, which generation ES gave the most bang for buck? Or had the best relative interior? For example, is the 2013 a huge decrease from the 2012?

I vaguely remember sitting in a 1997 ES, all I remember was the squishy soft leather seats. Comfortable, but never paid attention to the materials.

SW17LS

I think from a pure quality and build quality standpoint the ES reached its peak between 2002-2006. I felt like the 2007 ES was a huge step down from the 2006 model, and felt that they made some of that up in 2010 with the additional wood and metal trim on the inside and chrome on the outside. I really liked my 2010 ES, much better looking than the 2003 I had before (which is still in the family), drove better, rode better, a little sportier, but interior quality was still a downgrade from the '03. In fact I chose the Parchment interior over black to help hide some of the poor quality plastics.

The 2013 has better space, and I think the design of the interior is an improvement, but from an execution standpoint material quality is a downgrade yet again from the 2012.