Fly4u

I find the ES vs GS arguments to be grounded in separate universes, particularly if the hybrid option is specified. While the provincialism of the conversation is not surprising, it led me to visit the Lexus.com site and build a GS somewhat comparable to my '13 ES300h. My moderately equipped ES bore a MSRP of $45K, $15K less than a base GS hybrid. As the GS lacks a diverse menu of individual options, the least expensive package which included NAV and a few other features boosted the MSRP to $70K! Personal finance is not what inhibited me from cross shopping these vehicles; the better value was to save roughly $25K and score better fuel efficiency. I did not even waste the opportunity of a GS test drive.

I can live very well with a bit more plastic content, a trifle more wind noise, and the banal Buick jokes!

speedflex

Man, I really have to examine the 13 ES. I'm shocked it's as diminished as some are saying. I think my 09 ES is great inside. I do recall the generation prior and it was lovely inside but man, what a granny car from the outside. I really dig the exterior of the 13 but I'm baffled at the apparent sacrifice in interior quality which is atypical of Lexus.

Fly4u

I suspect the current iteration is attracting many new to Lexus; a '13 ES300h is my first purchase of this make. Having no experience with the prior generations leads me to make comparisons solely with other vehicles. I was keenly aware of the hard-plastic usage but found other attributes more compelling, particularly the excellent hybrid system and overall value for $45K.

Fizzboy7

I have yet to sit in a new ES, or hear the media bash it's interior, but I will say this. The same masses of old men and women are gobbling up this car. They are all over the road here in Los Angeles and dealers are having no problem moving them out. It's about sales and money, and the ES fills the bill. I really don't think this older class of buyers care whether the dashboard is hard or soft. They get a solid, reliable, economical, smart luxury car that's cleanly styled, easy to manuver, and does not shout out to the world.

LexBob2

While I think some of the talk about the hard/cheap plastics in the new ES has been a bit over the top, many of the professional reviews of the car have been lukewarm at best. Reviews of the the previous gen(s) weren't too exciting either but IMO that's the nature of the car. It sells well, is reliable, decent performance and fuel efficiency and meets the needs of its demographic. Not exciting stuff but a recipe for sales success in the entry level luxury segment.

Mike728

My lease comment was not meant as an insult. Sorry if it came across that way. I was solely making the point that there's a different perception of value when you purchase, since you plan on keeping it much longer than 3 years. You said it was only $40/mo more for you ($1,440 total). That was not the case for me, which is why it was not even a tough decision to go with the ES over the GS. It was a $15k jump!

No, you shouldn't, nor would you. I have been in each and every one of those models, minus the GC, and can honestly say that my 2013 ES has a better laid out and much higher quality interior. I'm starting to think that you sat in a base model ES.

Fly4u

I'm not in the demographic you suggest, though I sought a "solid, reliable, economical, smart luxury car" as an alternative to most every other hybrid available. In this purchasing cycle MPG was elevated to the top 5 of my criteria. Almost acquired a '13 Fusion Hybrid but the woeful real-world efficiency lost the day. There isn't much else in the full-sized luxury hybrid market at this pricepoint, and the Sonata drivetrain is atrocious.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

'professional' reviews of the es will usually be lukewarm because it's not sporty, so they don't really count.

lexus knows its target market.

it's like 'professional' phone reviewers saying an iphone screen is too small - meanwhile apple sells zillions of them.

PhilipMSPT

iTrader: (5)

Honestly, just profitability alone, if Lexus is to kill one mode in their current line-up, it surely will the the GS that gets the axe. Well, maybe the IS-C too...

Fly4u

I think the point is we are living in a golden age of automotive choice. So many mfgrs, platforms, engine/chassis options, interior selections, etc. It is absolute provincialism to chastise, categorize, or denigrate those who vote with their dollars - even though it is our nature and at times a sport! While brands may compete for market share and at times axe unprofitable offerings, we know where the ultimate power lies.

mmarshall

I don't want to sound rude or crass here, but, in effect, that's because a lot of Geezers simply don't do their homework (or have sharp enough minds left to do their homework). They go out and buy a car (or a car brand) simply because that's the way they have been doing it for the last 50 years. We see that, especially now, with Cadillac, Lincoln, and Buick....but also, to some extent, with Lexus. Some of their traditonal buyers have stuck with these brand despite the fact that those buyers who like a traditional soft ride and road-isolation are pretty much being ignored. They think that today's new ES, XTS, MKS, or Lacrosse is still like the ones they bought years ago, and eagerly sign on the dotted line without a second thought. Then, once they actually get the cars home and drive them on rough roads each morning, they find out that what they thought were (still) luxo-cruisers have actually turned into semi-sports sedans.

Now....don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the new ES rides like a Mitsubishi Evo...it certainly doesn't. But it is noticeably firmer and noisier on the road than before.

Yes, I agree on the dashboard, but they do care about whether the suspension is hard or soft.

trexlexus

I know quietness is a subjective category, but the ES is actually LOUDER than the GS?

Huh... I always thought they were trying to make the ES the second quietest, behind big daddy LS. Either they failed or re-prioritized.

amphipri0n

For the record, the main critique I've heard across the boards is that more hard plastics were used in the lower touch areas. That's about it. There's also missing items such as no auto-leveling HIDs, no power side mirrors, cheaper exhaust tips (??), all of which will probably come back in a refresh. But that is pretty typical of new generation cycles, they will de-content, and add back in later years as an incentive for what will then be an aging model. (some examples include power side mirrors, easy close trunk, on the 3.5GS which are now missing in the current US 4GS)

When they do refresh the ES, maybe they'll employ softer touch materials in said areas OR maybe they'll retain that difference to differentiate the ES from the GS interior, just like Lexus continues to use two completely different variable suspension systems between the GS and the LS.

So yes there maybe more hard plastics, but in the face of the numerous improvements and added tech. in the current ES, it's vastly outweighed.

SW17LS

People are absolutely buying it. What upsets me though is that Lexus has dumbed themselves down to building the minimum that a buyer in a class will accept, when their products used to be over engineered and much higher quality than a buyer would expect. To me thats what made Lexus Lexus.

Thank you for clarifying. Thats what I was getting at though, for me its not really about the ES vs the GS because the GS is considerably more, its about comparing the ES to previous ESes.

Better laid out yes, but all of those vehicles I mentioned have nicer quality materials in their interiors than the ES.

I didn't just "sit in an ES", I almost bought the car. I probably drove 8 of differing packages from the base car to the luxury model to the UL over the course of a couple months. None of the materials I have an issue with change depending on the trim level other than the leather. I personally would take the NuLuxe over the standard leather because it feels better. The semi-aniline leather is a different story obviously.

The GS is quieter than the ES in all situations other than full throttle, where the GS' intake sound generator gives the engine a deep growl. After having lived with the GS for 3 months now I think it rides better too overall, its different, its definitely firmer but its more refined and more "vault like" on the road than the ES.

Thats bad enough, but what really got me about the 13 ES was that the cheap materials are being used in areas the passengers commonly touch now. The trim around the door handles, the console top, the glove box door, the air vent surrounds, the door panels. No more wood trim on the console or the window switch bezels. luxury package leather is coarse, thin, and has obvious vinyl on the top, headrests, and sides.

Then of course the removal of AFS, auto leveling HIDs, etc.

Totally disagree. To me a luxury car should be a well made, beautiful machine. I like nice things made of nice materials, nice clothes, nice leathers, nice furniture. If I wanted a car that just had a lot of technology and didn't care about quality, I would buy a loaded Ford, Buick or Avalon or something. The reason to go from Avalon to ES should be quality and prestige.

To me the 2013 ES is the first example of Lexus relying on the fact that "its a Lexus" to sell the product.

amphipri0n

My point stands, it's still just one aspect of the vehicle -- the hand (or grade) of some of the plastics used -- that covers your entire complaint. Obviously this is huge for you, and understandably if you're a former owner where this aspect of the ES exceeded your expectations. But, it's still just one area.

I assumed you checked out the steering wheel. It's a huge improvement over the previous gen and is the now same one found in the GS/LS (like the corporate grill, the new corporate steering wheel). What about the headliner material which is considerably nicer/softer and actually runs all the way down to the top of the beltline of the A/B pillars. Additionally, the quality of the wood trim is a step up and much more convincing than the one it replaces. Another interior improvement-- having uniform lighting color across the board, whereas before there was a mix of some LCDs in old-school green, while others in white, the list goes on...

The previous generation ES you had bore a remarkable amount of space in the dashboard that was a vast landscape of nothing but vinyl/rubber. I would think the plastic or rubber should definitely have been softer there because it took up so much unbroken space in the cockpit. In the '13 ES, you have a much prettier design and way more complex construction in the dashboard interior. The glovebox may not be as soft to touch, but it's not offensively hard either, considering I'm not feeling it up during a typical drive.

As I noted in my previous post these will most likely reappear in a refresh, as is typical for all automakers when releasing new models-- de-content until a refresh, where the "new" perks will serve as incentives.