Car Chat General discussion about Lexus, other auto manufacturers and automotive news.

Ford, GM to collaborate on 9- and 10-speed transmissions

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 04-15-13, 02:37 PM
  #1  
Hoovey689
Moderator
Thread Starter
iTrader: (16)
 
Hoovey689's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: California
Posts: 42,301
Received 125 Likes on 83 Posts
Default Ford, GM to collaborate on 9- and 10-speed transmissions

Ford, GM to collaborate on 9- and 10-speed transmissions



Ford and GM to Jointly Develop Advanced Nine- and 10-Speed Automatic Transmissions

- New project to build on success of previous collaborations

- Initial design and engineering work is already under way

- New transmissions will improve fuel economy and enhance performance


DEARBORN, Mich., April 15, 2013 – Ford Motor Company and General Motors Corporation have signed an agreement under which both companies will jointly develop an all-new generation of advanced-technology nine- and 10-speed automatic transmissions for cars, crossovers, SUVs and trucks.

The new transmissions, to be built in both front- and rear-wheel-drive variants, will improve vehicle performance and increase fuel economy.

The collaboration enables both automakers to design, develop, engineer, test, validate and deliver these new transmissions for their vehicles faster and at lower cost than if each company worked independently.

"Engineering teams from GM and Ford have already started initial design work on these new transmissions," said Jim Lanzon, GM vice president of global transmission engineering. "We expect these new transmissions to raise the standard of technology, performance and quality for our customers while helping drive fuel economy improvements into both companies' future product portfolios."

A track record of success
This new agreement marks the third time in the past decade that GM and Ford have collaborated on transmissions. These collaborative efforts have enabled both companies together to deliver more than 8 million durable, high-quality six-speed front-wheel-drive transmissions to customers around the globe.

Ford installs these six-speed transmissions in some of America's favorite vehicles, such as the Ford Fusion family sedan, the Ford Edge crossover and Ford Escape and Explorer SUVs, while GM installs them into a variety of high-volume, award-winning products such as the Chevrolet Malibu, Chevrolet Traverse, Chevrolet Equinox and Chevrolet Cruze.

That original collaboration served as a template for the new one. As before, each company will manufacture its own transmissions in its own plants with many common components.

"The goal is to keep hardware identical in the Ford and GM transmissions. This will maximize parts commonality and give both companies economy of scale," said Craig Renneker, Ford's
chief engineer for transmission and driveline component and pre-program engineering. "However, we will each use our own control software to ensure that each transmission is carefully matched to the individual brand-specific vehicle DNA for each company."

"With the jointly developed six-speed automatics we have in production today, we've already proven that Ford and GM transmission engineers work extremely well together," said Joe Bakaj, Ford vice president of powertrain engineering. "Our front-wheel-drive transmissions have exceeded expectations and there is every reason to believe we will have the same success with these all-new transmissions."

"This agreement provides tremendous benefits for both companies, and it will pay big dividends for our customers and shareholders," added Lanzon. "By jointly sharing the development of these two new families of transmissions, both GM and Ford will be able to more efficiently use our respective manpower resources to develop additional future advanced transmissions and bring them to market faster than if we worked alone."

Further technical details and vehicle applications for these transmissions will be released by each company at the appropriate time before launch.
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/04/15/f...transmissions/
Hoovey689 is offline  
Old 04-15-13, 04:44 PM
  #2  
Coconut
Racer
 
Coconut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NO
Posts: 1,620
Received 131 Likes on 58 Posts
Default

Didn't ZF or Aisin say theirs diminishing returns past 9-speeds?
Coconut is offline  
Old 04-16-13, 09:44 AM
  #3  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,275
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Coconut
Didn't ZF or Aisin say theirs diminishing returns past 9-speeds?
Exactly. The more individual gear ratios you use in a transmission, the closer you get to a CVT. Many CVT's though, still have one Achilles heel (besides their sometimes rubber-band/motorboat driving-characteristics)...the inability of the drive-belts to handle a lot of torque without excessive or premature wear, though recent ones are somewhat more power-capable than in the past.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 04-16-13, 10:12 AM
  #4  
Sulu
Lexus Champion
 
Sulu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,309
Likes: 0
Received 31 Likes on 24 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Coconut
Didn't ZF or Aisin say theirs diminishing returns past 9-speeds?
ZF:

"There is no hard line, but you have to consider the law of diminishing returns. The question is whether adding even more gears makes sense," he said, speaking at the Automobilwoche Congress in Germany. Back in July, ZF North American president Julio Caspari voiced similar statements, saying that today's best automatic transmissions are very nearly perfect – just 11 percent shy of their theoretical apogee – in efficiency.
Source: Autoblog

Originally Posted by mmarshall
Exactly. The more individual gear ratios you use in a transmission, the closer you get to a CVT. Many CVT's though, still have one Achilles heel (besides their sometimes rubber-band/motorboat driving-characteristics)...the inability of the drive-belts to handle a lot of torque without excessive or premature wear, though recent ones are somewhat more power-capable than in the past.
The new metal CVT drive belts are much more robust than the old rubber ones. The added benefit is that you can "push" the metal belts which you could not do with the rubber ones. Ever try to push a rubber band?

The problem with CVTs is that they cannot handle much torque without slipping (that's where the pushable metal belt helps); gear teeth give you that grip you need to handle high torque loads. Slip a bit and efficiency drops; slip a lot and you get no output from the transmission.

The CVT should be very efficient: with infinite ratios between low-gear and high-gear, you can keep engine at the most optimum rpm for the circumstances, all without discernable gear hunting.

The problem with ever greater number of gears in a conventional, torque convertor automatic is added number of components, added weight, added complexity, increased likelihood of failure, leading eventually to decreased efficiency. There is also the problem of continual hunting for gears (which drivers may not like), which adds to increased wear and tear on the transmission.
Sulu is offline  
Old 04-16-13, 10:27 AM
  #5  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,275
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Sulu
ZF:

The problem with CVTs is that they cannot handle much torque without slipping (that's where the pushable metal belt helps); gear teeth give you that grip you need to handle high torque loads. Slip a bit and efficiency drops; slip a lot and you get no output from the transmission.
Correct.....and slipping is what causes unnecessary abrasion and some of that premature wear I spoke of.


The problem with ever greater number of gears in a conventional, torque convertor automatic is added number of components, added weight, added complexity, increased likelihood of failure, leading eventually to decreased efficiency. There is also the problem of continual hunting for gears (which drivers may not like), which adds to increased wear and tear on the transmission.
Yep, you're correct. That's something I've also pointed out several times in the past....more gears often mean more shifting and potential transmission wear.

In most cases, depending on the closeness/wideness of the ratios, I don't see a need for more than about 5-6 gears or so....except for maybe a 7th for cars designed for extremely high speeds on the German Autobahn.

Last edited by mmarshall; 04-16-13 at 10:30 AM.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 04-16-13, 11:36 AM
  #6  
bitkahuna
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
 
bitkahuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Present
Posts: 74,875
Received 2,437 Likes on 1,598 Posts
Default

with 9 or 10 gears you won't even notice hunting or even shifting much as all. as for wear, lubricants and precision machining have come so far it's basically a non-issue for at least 100k mi.
bitkahuna is online now  
Old 04-16-13, 01:52 PM
  #7  
spwolf
Lexus Champion
 
spwolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 19,923
Received 161 Likes on 119 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by bitkahuna
with 9 or 10 gears you won't even notice hunting or even shifting much as all. as for wear, lubricants and precision machining have come so far it's basically a non-issue for at least 100k mi.
how will you not notice shifting in 10 gear shifter? it should shift more then, right?
spwolf is offline  
Old 04-16-13, 03:06 PM
  #8  
T0ked
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (2)
 
T0ked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 2,621
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by spwolf
how will you not notice shifting in 10 gear shifter? it should shift more then, right?
It would shift more, but the jumps should be less jarring and smoother since the gearing would be closer together.
T0ked is offline  
Old 04-17-13, 08:30 AM
  #9  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,275
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by bitkahuna
with 9 or 10 gears you won't even notice hunting or even shifting much as all. as for wear, lubricants and precision machining have come so far it's basically a non-issue for at least 100k mi.
Well, maybe. Let's see what the inside of these units look like when they have six-digit mileage on them....or have been extensively used in urban stop/go conditions. Many of them are still relatively new.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 04-17-13, 09:21 AM
  #10  
bitkahuna
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
 
bitkahuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Present
Posts: 74,875
Received 2,437 Likes on 1,598 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by spwolf
how will you not notice shifting in 10 gear shifter? it should shift more then, right?
the gear ratios are closer together, so the shifts will be barely felt except when really thumping on the gas.
bitkahuna is online now  
Old 04-17-13, 10:39 AM
  #11  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,275
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by bitkahuna
the gear ratios are closer together, so the shifts will be barely felt except when really thumping on the gas.
Gear-ratio spacing is not necessarily what determines shift-shock (and smoothness). Case in point...............some of the (arguably) smoothest-shifting automatics in history were the 50s/60s-vintage two and three-speed Buick Dynaflow and Super Turbine Drive automatics (I owned two of them, so I know). They were so butter-like because they had almost no moving parts inside the unit apart from a couple of impellers/vane-actuators inside a huge case of fluid....so the fluid transmitted the torque, and dissipated virtually all of the engine/transmission vibrations. These trannies were unique at their time....no other GM division (even top-line Cadillacs) used them. Unfortunately, because of product-simplification, they were replaced in the late 1960s with the standard GM Turbo-Hydra-Matic that most of the other divisions used....which, of course, was also an excellent transmission. My 6-speed Buick Verano's transmission, except for a slight downshift-bump letting off the gas at lower speeds, is also butter-smooth (but not to the same extent as the old Dynaflow/STD), and some of the Verano tranny's smoothness seems to be because of slip in the actual converter.

In all fairness, some of the Lexus automatics I've driven have approached that of the old 50s/60s Buicks for smoothness/refinement.....Lexus engineers, despite the shift-quirks that some 1Gen IS300 and 4Gen ES330 models had, know how to achieve smoothness with an abundance of mechanical parts....electrical shift-governing, if done right, can also help.

Last edited by mmarshall; 04-17-13 at 10:44 AM.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 04-17-13, 02:48 PM
  #12  
I8ABMR
Lexus Fanatic
 
I8ABMR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Waiting for next track day
Posts: 22,608
Received 102 Likes on 67 Posts
Default

I guess it one way to chase fuel economy standards. Let me remind people how everyone though the LS460 was a freak with 8. Again Lexus leads the way and gets no credit
I8ABMR is offline  
Old 04-17-13, 02:56 PM
  #13  
Hoovey689
Moderator
Thread Starter
iTrader: (16)
 
Hoovey689's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: California
Posts: 42,301
Received 125 Likes on 83 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by I8ABMR
I guess it one way to chase fuel economy standards. Let me remind people how everyone though the LS460 was a freak with 8. Again Lexus leads the way and gets no credit
Problem is, Lexus was the first to the party and last to implement it

Jaguar, Audi, BMW all use 8's. LS, 3IS 350, RX F-Sport and defunct GS460 are the only models that use 8 speeds. Everything else is a 6-speed unit or CVT
Hoovey689 is offline  
Old 04-17-13, 03:26 PM
  #14  
LexFather
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Originally Posted by I8ABMR
I guess it one way to chase fuel economy standards. Let me remind people how everyone though the LS460 was a freak with 8. Again Lexus leads the way and gets no credit
True words bro

Well Ford/GM know it helps with MPG..but for sporty driving its too much for me...all that paddle shifting with 8 is nuts let alone 10 lol
 
Old 04-17-13, 03:29 PM
  #15  
Hoovey689
Moderator
Thread Starter
iTrader: (16)
 
Hoovey689's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: California
Posts: 42,301
Received 125 Likes on 83 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Blueprint
True words bro

Well Ford/GM know it helps with MPG..but for sporty driving its too much for me...all that paddle shifting with 8 is nuts let alone 10 lol
You'll really only see that many gears on cars geared for efficiency. For most trucks and utes, towing is important and these tranny's wont be able to process so much power
Hoovey689 is offline  


Quick Reply: Ford, GM to collaborate on 9- and 10-speed transmissions



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:12 PM.