LexFather

Again I have no issue with the ES interior. The doors in the ES have always been thin and light compared to a GS or more expensive car. This is not a new thing. I agree the plastic on the center console is bad but the dash is well done (Glovebox is small, hard). I came away with good feelings about the ES, not bad ones. Contrarily I felt the last gen was prettty average and a step back from the previous model. I am fine with the current ES.

I guess we can talk all we want about how much YOU would pay (who in this thread has a car with a nice interior?) but the question is really what is the market happy with? Clearly they are happy with some pretty lame interiors to me/us. They might not know better or to them its a huge step up from something else.

To be honest in driving tons of cars the last year I can't say there has been a 30-40k car that has just blown me away in interior quality. What I am noticing is you might have to purchase a vehicle that starts around 50k to really get top notch materials. The bottom line is cars are getting PRICEY, I mean we are talking about 50k ES/IS cars with some options here, unheard of years ago (please save the internet inflation spill).

While Hyundai/Kia has the current pricing advantage their interiors are nice but not class leading at all and I'm not sure if that is by choice or by lack of experience. It might take a brand from China with a ridiculous price advantage (think Japan early 1990s Lexus) to be able to pour tons of money into an incredible interior for a cheap price. I just spent some time in a Sorento and its nice but the interior didn't come close to blowing me away, especially the rear.

Again the fact of the matter is while a few people on the internet harp on interiors, the masses seem to be fine, including those that buy luxury cars. And the car companies will listen to the masses, not people on the internet who aren't even buying the cars in question.

I also am curious to luxury brands building cars in America supposedly to save money and be a value. I don't see the value at all (in many offerings) so maybe they are just being greedy with profits? The last gen Toyota Tundra got called out for having a poor interior and its made here instead of Japan to save on costs.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

I'll agree with most points in this post, except the ES/GS. With both last gens the GS was really only marginally better with interior quality than the ES, but that too suffered many squeaks and rattles too. Flash forward to today and the GS spun a 180 while the ES continued a subpar trend. Designs aside the quality of the 2RX and 1GX were far greater than the current 3RX and 2GX, so Lexus is really cutting corners with their materials. I'm so on the fence about Lexus right now. Things like the 4GS, LF-CC/LC, IS-F make me cheer and things like the ES, material quality, big refreshes not redesigns ahem LS make me jeer.

Keep in mind the masses are also buying because of the badge and reputation so they are willing to forgo quality of fit and finish. This is a major mistake IMO, and people need to send a message to manufacturers that this is unacceptable - by not buying the product. Unfortunately the masses are stupid and essentially a flock of sheep. Enthusiasts and smart people can't win cause these fools keep breeding stupid.

LexBob2

How do you determine who is part of the stupid masses and who is part of the smart/enthusiast masses?

LexFather

I think Lexus knew they had to hit a home run with the interior of the GS while with the ES they know that they will continue to play it safe. The GS is a harder sell for them so maybe the effort is stronger whereas the ES has such a big/loyal following they can skimp here and there. The thing is to me it is still based on another platform whereas the GS has its own. So my expectations for the ES are not as great. Mind you I started off in the ES and while I loved it its clear to me that the ES/RX are simply not built like a GS/LS and rightfully so b/c of price.

I agree Lexus is losing me as well and we have both talked about this. They need a PRODUCT ONSLAUGHT not the same tired model here, model there, slow to update methods. The thing is if sales continue to increase (as they are) they might not have that sense of urgency that the Germans seem to have. Also Lexus has big Toyota behind them so they have the cash and volume and don't need to chase it like BMW or Benz with no parent companies.

What I am realizing is after this current GS my interior expectations have jumped and I don't know if I can drop down to an IS especially if it lacks features. At that point I might as well just jump in a well built FRS/BRZ (which is really well built for the price). So are we at a point where you have to drop 50k minimum for a really well done interior?

mmarshall

A number of automakers, especially domestic-nameplate ones, did El Cheapo plastic interiors in the late 1990s....even the companies in good financial shape and not going bankrupt. The basic problem was that, back then, the designers often just didn't care.

The TL/CL of that vintage, as I remember it, though no Maybach or Rolls, wasn't that bad inside, but I agree that the Altimas of that vintage were insultingly cheap inside (we discussed that at length here on CAR CHAT). I was nothing short of shocked when I first saw the 2001 Altima interior in a local Nissan showroom....especially that loosely-attached, wobbly, triple Mickey-Mouse-Ear plastic gauge-binnacle. The salesman asked me what I thought of it, and while I wasn't rude and used some politeness/tact (afer all, it's not his fault the way the car was designed), I made it clear that I didn't see how the product-planners could have approved a design like that. I thanked the salespeople there for their time (always being polite), then got up and walked out without even a test-drive.


Of course, a lot of first-time drivers in their teens are so glad to have their freedom (though driving in todays traffic, unlike when I learned to drive in the late 60s, can be a PITA) that they're satisfied, at least for a while, with almost anything on four wheels.....cheap interior or not. I myself first learned to drive on a cheap compact car before I got to try out the nicer luxury and muscle cars of the period.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

That's design though, "playing it safe" is no excuse for bad materials.

The ES being such a cash cow should produce significant amount of cash flow to afford a few nicer plastics. The bean counters are taking over.

Certainly Lexus needs that "Product Onslaught" cranked up to 11. It's like waiting for Haley's Comet in regards to how slow products and like you mention even updates come to fruition.

The same over here. When it comes time for a new car, I have this sickening feeling I will be paying over $50K just to have a decent interior

mmarshall

The problem with today's vehicles is that they sometimes have glitzy, plush-looking interiors that, in fact, are nothing but a thin coat of glitz and finish on top of cheap plastic. Two of the worst offenders, IMO, are the Buick Lacrosse and Enclave. Yes, the polished wood on the steering wheel is indeed real, but all that other "chrome", "wood-trim", and brushed-metal (trust me) is nothing but thin plastic underneath.





That is, ironically, one of the things I prefer about the Regal and Verano.......their interior trim/hardware uses notably more durable-feeling materials than their more-expensive cousins.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

first, thanks for a great, constructive, and well thought out post!

my response to this is 'Spartanburg'! while profits are no doubt a factor, i think another factor is simply being closer to customers and being able to be more responsive. for a luxury maker, some of whom like to offer a lot of options and configurations, this is especially important. having a car built on mars, even if it's the most amazing quality, isn't very helpful, if i want it in the next month and it isn't already built.

right but that's two different issues... design vs. manufacturing. the design trade-offs, ultimately decided by management, is likely not related to where it is built.

the GS is a harder sell because they also have the ES (a much easier value proposition to a wider potential customer base - it's 'good enough luxury'), but also because lexus isn't marketing or incenting (or even building) for higher sales. i believe lexus could sell a lot more GS if they wanted to.

that's probably because, respectfully, you're becoming more demanding and picky, and maybe even less willing to go the 'mod' route to turn a stock vehicle into what you want.

yes. welcome to what happens as the dollar weakens. remarkably, the japanese economy is as weak if not weaker (due to massive govt interference for decades), which is why the dollar has rallied against the yen recently. but that's a race to the bottom, with no clear winner (with europe in the crapper too, even china's at grave risk).

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

but why does that matter? why does what's underneath affect the finish/appearance of what's on top, even if it's micrometers thick?

what does 'durable-feeling' mean?

Fly4u

This entire discussion, while insightful and entertaining, is why we have a choice of more than 3 flavors of ice cream. The automotive industry offers an astounding variety and astute consumers are forced to research and competitively shop prior to inking the deal. Assuming the benchmark of $50K for a quality vehicle in most aspects, a buyer is forced to accept a good many tradeoffs and may very well endure a bit of buyers remorse once the honeymoon has ended.

Fly4u

The ES and GS interiors are frequently compared on relative merits, therefore I performed an interesting experiment and "built" a GS450h* online to compare with my ES300h. For my money, and the roughly $25K difference, the ES is by far the better value. Simply stated, the admittedly more luxurious GS interior and better performance pales in comparison with the superior ES mileage, satisfactory accoutrements, and most importantly the opportunity cost of sinking $25K into a relatively rapidly depreciating asset. I have no doubt the many GS aficionados can build a case to bolster their choice - that is a value judgement we are free to make.




*GS450h with NAV package as illustrated online. No doubt a spec ordered vehicle could reduce the disparity.

spwolf

yep... $25k is quite an difference.

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

The $25K difference.

Luxury is not supposed to make financial sense. Luxury is not about value. It's up to the buyer to decide whether the luxury is worth the premium.

LexFather

I'm a big fan of the ES 300h, fantastic car but this is really apples to oranges and all relative. My true interest is in a GS 450h F-sport but thats sold in Europe not here. My logical side loves the ES 300h and its good looks and MPG. My previous experience with a GS 450h leans me toward the current model. I've toyed with the thought of a ES 300h but the "value" you speak of doesn't really hold much weight to my desires but it may to you and others and even the market as whole looking at sales.

Luxury is about choice and at least Lexus offers various hybrids to choose from. I just wish there was a GS 450h F-sport here



This. To me "Value" is offering more for less or equal for less. Less for Less is simply less, not value. I never understood that pro-Acura "value" argument and I don't understand it now.

Toys4RJill

Generally you have to get to a certain price point before there is solid materials all around, when at this price point, the higher cost of the vehicle absorbs the need for cost cutting.

LX570, SC430, LS460, GS350, Land Cruiser are rare examples of this.

Now, there are some lower priced models that will get better interiors simply to attract new/initial buyers and once the model hits 2nd or 3rd gen, then more cost cutting comeS in to focus.

1st gen models of Highlander, Sequoia, Tundra, RX are perfect examples of this.

But generally you have to get to specific price point before cost cutting is no longer a factor.