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Chrysler refuses to recall 2.7 million Jeep SUVs

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Old 06-05-13, 10:07 AM
  #16  
mmarshall
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Originally Posted by S2000toIS350
Kia still has a minivan
Yes, you're right....good catch. I thought Kia had dropped the Sedona by now, as rumors were that it wouldn't be around much longer. But its very presence, of course, price-wise, is a potential competitor to also-reasonably-priced Dodge Caravan, though the Caravan sells in much larger numbers....always has.

MM, I agree the Jeeps are nicer than they were but there are lots of other SUVs that folks could own instead
That, itself, though, seems to be part of the issue......a lot of Jeep enthusiasts didn't necessarily want other brands, but, having been burned before, simply wanted better-done Grand Cherokees. They now have them....recall or no recall.
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Old 06-05-13, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by S2000toIS350
How can we trust Chrysler to develop and implement the repairs.

I vote for the vehicles being crushed and Fiat paying cash to the customers
That is probably what Chrysler is trying to avoid to begin with. As soon as they agree to this recall it exposes them to class action law suits about how it would be impossible to implement the repairs, the cars are now worthless on the resale market, blah blah blah.
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Old 06-05-13, 01:49 PM
  #18  
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In the ideal world Chrysler and various safety agencies would: (sadly the public will not enjoy such transparency)

1- Use comparative statistical analysis of various vehicles, not cherry-picked numbers to justify an agenda.

2- Discuss possible mitigation techniques to reduce the incidence of fires. Are the affected vehicles genuinely beyond economic repair or might there be an efficient solution?

Chrysler risks a revisit of the Ford Pinto fiasco. Ford initially made the calculation that settling accident claims was cheaper than recalling and repairing. The end state solution was a simple plastic shield affixed to the tank with a reasonably minimal parts and labor exposure.

If Chrysler miscalculates and the body-count carnage becomes untenable, the blowback will be fierce. They are not a beloved and storied company with a deep reservoir of public admiration and trust. Public safety investigators today are far more savvy, and internal company documents surrounding the fuel tank design and possible engineering dissent may be an issue.
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Old 06-05-13, 02:12 PM
  #19  
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Default Chrysler taking big risk snubbing NHTSA

Chrysler taking big risk snubbing NHTSA


"Maker Insists Feds Overstate Risk Of Fires With Grand Cherokee, Liberty Models"


It's not often that recall stories make it above the fold, in that old newspaper parlance, but when one shows up as the lead story on the network evening news programs, you know it's something big.

And so it is with Chrysler snubbing its nose at a request by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to recall 2.7 million Jeeps the feds insist are at risk of potentially catastrophic fuel tank fires in a rear-end collision.

For its part, the automaker insists that "the vehicles are safe and not defective," adding that "incidents... occur less than once for every million years of vehicle operations." And it insists it has the data to back that up.

But sometimes you can't win for losing and even if Chrysler is right, there is a serious chance that it may nonetheless lose the battle in the public eye, especially if it is seen as putting profits before safety.


There is little doubt that recalling 2.7 million Jeep Liberty and Grand Cherokee models would incur huge expense. According to NHTSA, the problem is that the affected models have their gas tanks mounted behind the rear axle, where they are particularly vulnerable in a crash. Depending upon what sort of fix might be required, that could add up to $100s, perhaps even $1,000s of dollars per vehicle, so the price tag could jump into the billions at the high end.

The maker has already recalled more than 750,000 vehicles for fuel tank-related problems, including 469,000 Jeeps and nearly 300,000 Ram Trucks and Dodge Dakotas. But NHTSA wants Chrysler to go significantly further, insisting its analysis of crash records shows there is a potentially serious risk.

The agency's records indicate there have been 15 deaths and 41 injuries resulting from rear-impact collisions and subsequent fires. Independent safety experts claim those numbers are understated. There have been 51 deaths, according to Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety, who told ABC News that "This will be the biggest recall since the Ford Pinto."


It is certainly the biggest recall-related news story since Toyota came under the microscope for so-called unintended acceleration problems a few years back. The Japanese giant ultimately recalled about 10 million vehicles to deal with sticky accelerator pedals and loose floor mats that could "entrap" an accelerator pedal making it difficult to bring a vehicle to a halt.

Toyota also faced a series of record fines from NHTSA for delaying several runaway car recalls. But once the story went public, the maker took a mostly conciliatory approach, Toyota Motor Co. President Akio Toyoda shedding tears when grilled by a congressional committee.

Toyota has rebuffed arguments that its vehicles are prone to electronic gremlins, and its position has been backed up by several government studies. Nonetheless, the maker has taken steps to settle a number of lawsuits filed on behalf of those injured or killed, allegedly in unintended acceleration incidents.

That has helped the maker keep images of burned and maimed bodies out of the headlines. And while there were many who speculated Toyota's once sterling image might suffer, it has largely rebuilt consumer confidence in the US market.

German maker Audi also faced claims of runaway cars in the late 1980s, and though it was ultimately redeemed in a federal investigation that largely put the blame on driver error, the maker's image was tattered as it took a hardline stand, rejecting fault. By 1992, Audi nearly pulled out of the US market and two decades later it still lags its luxury rivals, arguably due to the unintended acceleration scare.

Then there's General Motors, which also stared down an order for a massive recall of its midsize X-Cars back in the 1980s. NHTSA insisted they suffered from serious braking problems but GM refused to comply and took the government on in court, ultimately winning when it convinced the judge the proposed recall was unnecessary.

But while GM might have won the battle, it arguably lost the war, many industry analysts realizing that consumers ultimately concluded that GM was simply intent on putting profits above safety by refusing to acknowledge a defect that many reviewers had long written about.

The Chrysler case is a bit less certain. While the federal safety agency contends the Jeep models performed worse than all but one similar model in rear crashes, Chrysler's analysis of the data purportedly comes up with a very different result. The maker insists its position has nothing to do with cost and everything to do with being reasonable.

The question is how the public will view its no-go stand. The maker clearly has some supporters. During an interview on the debate, influential WJR radio morning talk show host Paul W. Smith referred to NHTSA's demands as "clearly another example... of government excess," making less than veiled reference to ongoing scandals such as the one tarnishing the IRS over its investigation of Tea Party groups.

There's no question there's a sizable share of the population that distrusts any government action that "unfairly" impacts business. On the other hand, there was also a public outcry when it became clear that Toyota had manipulated NHTSA into canceling an earlier proposed recall for unintended acceleration problems.

That backlash has led the agency to take a much tougher stand on safety problems and may be one of the reasons behind the proposed Jeep recall.

So, while Chrysler may insist it "stands behind the quality and safety of its vehicles," it will have to face off against TV images of burning Jeeps and quotes from opponents like Jenelle Embrey, who watched several friends die in a burning Grand Cherokee, and wrapped up the ABC News report by declaring, "Something has to be done. It can't be done soon enough."

It is a risky strategy Chrysler has engaged in and if it loses the battle the costs, in terms of image and lost sales, could far outweigh what it might have to spend to recall 2.7 million Jeeps.
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/06/05/c...nubbing-nhtsa/
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Old 06-05-13, 02:35 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by mmarshall
You're living in the past. Those were former Chrysler UAW workers (many of whom are gone, retired, or laid-off)....not those of today. Fiat, today (Chrysler's primary owner), doesn't tolerate that kind of stuff.

Of course,some of those possible-recall-vehicles in question do date back to those dark labor-years at Chrysler, but gas-tank location is obviously more a question of engineering/design than of how much assembly-line workers goof off, drink, or smoke pot.
Must be why they got their jobs back.
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Old 06-05-13, 05:25 PM
  #21  
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MM, as 84Cressida pointed out, Fiat got stuck rehiring these "workers" because the Union was able to point to process errors on how they were axed (If Fox called the cops to document what was going on, the outcome may have been different).

Here is a link

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/20310...get-jobs-back/

Some of the Chryslers being built today are made by the folks previously seen in the video smoking and drinking at lunch time.

The hard working unsuspecting car buyers are trusting the safety of their families to vehicles built by these folks.
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Old 06-06-13, 07:25 AM
  #22  
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Journalists are cranking out articles stating Chrysler is going to take a dive due to this action. I think, alternatively, the NHTSA runs the risk of looking like another government organization bullying a business in order to push an agenda. Will we have Congressional Inquiries so members of congress can scream quotables for tomorrow's news articles? Perhaps NASA will get involved once more...

Where does this end? Should all vehicles over 60 years old be recalled for missing seat belts? How about vehicles without dual front airbags? Should those be retrofitted? CHMSL missing? That's a recall.
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Old 06-06-13, 08:45 AM
  #23  
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why dont they recall every vehicle that doesnt have a gas tank in front of the rear axle
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Old 06-06-13, 08:47 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Outrage
Where does this end? Should all vehicles over 60 years old be recalled for missing seat belts?
Seat belts were not Federally required in new American-made cars until the late 1960s...which was some 45 years ago, not 60.

Should those be retrofitted?
Many surviving models have already been retrofitted...or, as in the case of some luxury cars, had factory-standard belts in the 1960s before the law actually mandated them.

How about vehicles without dual front airbags?
Again, that wasn't required for passenger-cars until 1995.

Last edited by mmarshall; 06-06-13 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 06-06-13, 08:50 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by 4TehNguyen
why dont they recall every vehicle that doesnt have a gas tank in front of the rear axle
Well, if you remember, NBC did a documentary on side-impact explosions on sole older GM pickups with side-mounted fuel-tanks outside the cabin....which got NBC in trouble when it was discovered that they were staging the explosions.
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Old 06-06-13, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mmarshall
Seat belts were not Federally required in new American-made cars until the late 1960s...which was some 45 years ago, not 60.



Many surviving models have already been retrofitted...or, as in the case of some luxury cars, had factory-standard belts in the 1960s before the law actually mandated them.



Again, that wasn't required for passenger-cars until 1995.
It seems some have never heard of sarcasm before.
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Old 06-06-13, 09:37 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by My0gr81
It seems some have never heard of sarcasm before.
Don't jump the gun. Sarcasm hasn't yet been Federally-required.
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Old 06-18-13, 12:57 PM
  #28  
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http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/18/auto...html?iid=s_mpm

Chrysler relents, agrees to recall 2.7 million Jeeps

Chrysler Group reversed course and agreed to a recall of 2.7 million Jeeps Tuesday, giving in to the government's request in the final hours before a deadline.

Chrysler stated last week that it would not comply with the recall demand, arguing that the vehicles do not have a high risk of catching fire when struck from behind. It continued to claim Tuesday that the vehicles -- 1993 to 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokees and 2002 to 2007 Jeep Libertys -- are safe.
Its statement said it will recall the vehicles for inspection and, in "some cases," will "provide an upgrade to the rear structure of the vehicle to better manage crash forces in low-speed impacts."

"Chrysler Group recognizes that this matter has raised concerns for its customers and wants to take further steps, in coordination with NHTSA, to provide additional measures to supplement the safety of its vehicles," the company said.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which had asked for the recall, did not have an immediate comment on Chrysler's announcement.
Public safety advocate Clarence Ditlow, who has pushed NHTSA to demand a recall, said he was pleased that Chrysler was agreeing to some form of a recall, but said he would wait to see the details before he called it a clear win.

"The inspection part troubles me," he said. "Until I see the details, the question I have is 'is it window dressing or a real fix?'"

If Chrysler had not agreed to act by the end of Tuesday, it faced the prospect of high-profile public hearings. There would have been testimony from both car safety advocates such as Ditlow who have pushed for the recall, as well as the parents of children who burned to death in fires. Experts say the hearing would have caused Chrysler's reputation to take a hit, even if it had avoided the recall.

"It strikes me that Chrysler underestimated the negative publicity they'd get out of fighting, and that they decided it was better off to go ahead and do the recall," said Michelle Krebs, senior analyst at Edmunds.com. She said fighting the recall would have been "a very risky gamble," even if Chrysler had eventually been proven right.

"It's still an uphill battle for Chrysler in the perception of quality and [a hearing] could [have] set it back."

The J.D. Power & Associates survey of car owners found that the number of problems reported by Jeep owners has fallen by about a third between 2008 and 2012. It has moved up in approval rankings from dead last out of 36 brands in 2008 to 23rd out of 34 last year.

An online survey by Kelley Blue Book last week found 64% of those answering the survey would not consider any vehicle from an automaker who fights a recall.

However, a week of used car auctions tracked by Kelley shows no measurable change in average pricing or sales volumes of the affected vehicles. Used car site AutoTrader.com also reported no change in interest in the affected vehicles by potential car buyers visiting its site.
Chrysler still faces liability risks in numerous wrongful death suits. NHTSA says there have been least 37 accidents that caused fires and resulted in at least 51 deaths.

Krebs said she was surprised by the reversal by Chrysler, saying it appeared that Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne and other executives at the automaker had dug in and prepared for a fight.

Ditlow said many of the recalled cars will probably never be brought in for the inspection. He said in the case of the recall of older model cars that are no longer covered by warranties, somewhere between 50% and 60% of recalled vehicles are typically brought in by owners.

About 52% of Ford Pintos were brought in, even though that late-1970s recall -- which also involved gas tank fires -- was very high profile, according to Ditlow.

If there had been a public hearing by NHTSA, the agency could either agree with Chrysler's argument and drop the request for a recall or order an involuntary recall. If the automaker again refused to issue a recall, NHTSA could go to federal court to force a recall, though that process could take years.

There have been 17,000 recalls involving over 500 million vehicles since NHTSA started the recall process in 1966. It is rare that automakers challenge NHTSA on a recall and even rarer that one wins. Chrysler -- under different management than it is now -- was the last automaker to win such a challenge when it fought a 1996 recall of 91,000 cars in a dispute over its seat belt system.
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Old 06-18-13, 09:54 PM
  #29  
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This made the local news today and the way it was presented compared to the mass hysteria-hyped Toyota recalls was absolutely night and day different. I am 100% positive the top tier of anything gets picked on the hardest, and today is proof. When Toyota//Lexus was going through their recall thing, the media was headlining every newscast like it was the end of the world. Today's Chrysler story, which sounds even more dangerous than Toyot's floormat problem, was briefly talked about for a few moments then moved on. Sucks to be on top.
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Old 06-19-13, 08:57 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Fizzboy7
This made the local news today and the way it was presented compared to the mass hysteria-hyped Toyota recalls was absolutely night and day different. I am 100% positive the top tier of anything gets picked on the hardest, and today is proof. When Toyota//Lexus was going through their recall thing, the media was headlining every newscast like it was the end of the world. Today's Chrysler story, which sounds even more dangerous than Toyot's floormat problem, was briefly talked about for a few moments then moved on. Sucks to be on top.
Not from what I saw last night on both the regular-network and PBS Evening News...it was a significant story, with even some guest-interviews on it.

We probably won't really know, though, until after the recall, whether it was really justified, or if this is just one more case of the government using its bully-pulpit and vast resources to order a private-firm to spend a lot of money doing something that may not have really been needed. After the famous Pinto gas-tank explosions of the early 1970s from inadequate frame-rail protection and intentional cost-cutting, (and Ford, IMO, was indeed criminally negligent on that one), I don't think that very many manufacturers (including Chrysler) would be dumb enough to design anything like THAT again.

Last edited by mmarshall; 06-19-13 at 09:04 AM.
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