June 2013 Sales Thread
07-05-13, 09:02 PM
#76
Lexus Champion
So the Chevy Volt's YTD sales are 0.7% of total GM sales, and the Leaf is 1.7% of Nissan only sales.....however you slice it these vehicles are having no impact on the car market. The action for now and far into the future for battery cars is infinitesmally low. Of total US sales the Volt and the Leaf will be somewhere in the 0.1% of the total market for this year, insignificant. If these weren't some kind of political statement both of these cars would have never made it to market and would have certainly been axed by now.
07-06-13, 08:30 AM
#77
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
to me, the 4GS has a really boring square tail, a pretty bland side profile, and a decent front in luxury/premium or downright ugly in f-sport. i think it's a styling disaster. i believe this alone turns away a LOT of potential customers.
as a former 2GS owner, i'm thrilled how far lexus has come with driving dynamics and the interior! but disappointed with exterior styling and that they didn't improve the drivetrains for this fourth gen. even a modest power bump plus the 8speed auto to help with economy would have been well praised.
the GS is now for a special customer, who likes the fact there aren't many on the road. who appreciates its finely tuned suspension (99% of drivers wouldn't, as they sit in traffic or cruise on a highway). and who falls in love with the interior. and who doesn't mind the option/package constraints and either 'take it or leave it' from inventory, or really long waits (and uninterested dealers) for custom order.
i don't think lexus will cancel the GS any time soon, and we can likely expect standard equipment, trim, and other positive changes in a year or two.
whenever i see an ES on the road however, i think there's a sharp looking car! and that combined with 10K or whatever less money makes it a easy choice to anyone comparing, not that i think many do beyond the initial glance.
maybe a lot of dealer demos or lexus salespersons' cars up for sale?
07-06-13, 08:31 AM
#78
Lexus Fanatic
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07-06-13, 03:48 PM
#79
Guest
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Lets forget about the 5 and E as we all agree they are in a place Lexus GS cant touch.
Especially if you look at sales on a Global scale.
I'm more surprised that its selling so poorly compared to the 3GS.
-3GS had horrible Lease Rates (Base was about 800 vs 500 for current GS)
-No Buzz
-No Fsport
-Never praised for driver dynamics
Current GS has YR 1 sales of about 20,000
By year 5-6 it will be less than 10,000
Doesn't make a good business case, especially the initial investment you need to make and then pay incentives to move the units.
My only guess is people get the ES instead to save couple bucks and have more room.
I'm just trying to show all the ES defenders - yes its AWESOME this FWD semi-luxury car sells so well, but in the end it may force the Death of the GS.
Especially if you look at sales on a Global scale.
I'm more surprised that its selling so poorly compared to the 3GS.
-3GS had horrible Lease Rates (Base was about 800 vs 500 for current GS)
-No Buzz
-No Fsport
-Never praised for driver dynamics
Current GS has YR 1 sales of about 20,000
By year 5-6 it will be less than 10,000
Doesn't make a good business case, especially the initial investment you need to make and then pay incentives to move the units.
My only guess is people get the ES instead to save couple bucks and have more room.
I'm just trying to show all the ES defenders - yes its AWESOME this FWD semi-luxury car sells so well, but in the end it may force the Death of the GS.
1. base the 5 off the 7 series
2. offer 4 cylinder engines
For more sales? Everyone has their math. FYI, the car sold I think around 50k units worldwide.
Not sure what language has to be spoken to explain that cars like the 5 series are BMW's main volume car or that the E-class is as popular as a taxi overseas. The GS simply will never sell in that volume nor any car.
Agree, I'm amazed the new GS isn't selling more. The poor marketing/product development guys must be going crazy at Lexus, I mean what more do they have to do? Everyone said the GS line was too boring and didn't drive well. They fix all the shortcomings, get good reviews, equal or beat the 5 series on dynamics and pricing and yet it sells less volume than the last "boring" car!
At what looks like now settling in at 20k units per year or less, you do need to wonder if Lexus can sustain this car at such low volume. I've also noticed quite a number of used 2013 GS on the market, most with very low miles. I wonder if people decide they don't like the car? You will always see some newer cars for sale but the number of new GS available used seems out of proportion to the sales numbers. The first two year leases aren't even hitting yet! If this keeps up we will be awash in used 4GS models in over the next year or two.
At what looks like now settling in at 20k units per year or less, you do need to wonder if Lexus can sustain this car at such low volume. I've also noticed quite a number of used 2013 GS on the market, most with very low miles. I wonder if people decide they don't like the car? You will always see some newer cars for sale but the number of new GS available used seems out of proportion to the sales numbers. The first two year leases aren't even hitting yet! If this keeps up we will be awash in used 4GS models in over the next year or two.
So the Chevy Volt's YTD sales are 0.7% of total GM sales, and the Leaf is 1.7% of Nissan only sales.....however you slice it these vehicles are having no impact on the car market. The action for now and far into the future for battery cars is infinitesmally low. Of total US sales the Volt and the Leaf will be somewhere in the 0.1% of the total market for this year, insignificant. If these weren't some kind of political statement both of these cars would have never made it to market and would have certainly been axed by now.
i have a simpler explanation (just my opinion). the ES is much better looking and of course, far less polarizing.
to me, the 4GS has a really boring square tail, a pretty bland side profile, and a decent front in luxury/premium or downright ugly in f-sport. i think it's a styling disaster. i believe this alone turns away a LOT of potential customers.
as a former 2GS owner, i'm thrilled how far lexus has come with driving dynamics and the interior! but disappointed with exterior styling and that they didn't improve the drivetrains for this fourth gen. even a modest power bump plus the 8speed auto to help with economy would have been well praised.
the GS is now for a special customer, who likes the fact there aren't many on the road. who appreciates its finely tuned suspension (99% of drivers wouldn't, as they sit in traffic or cruise on a highway). and who falls in love with the interior. and who doesn't mind the option/package constraints and either 'take it or leave it' from inventory, or really long waits (and uninterested dealers) for custom order.
i don't think lexus will cancel the GS any time soon, and we can likely expect standard equipment, trim, and other positive changes in a year or two.
whenever i see an ES on the road however, i think there's a sharp looking car! and that combined with 10K or whatever less money makes it a easy choice to anyone comparing, not that i think many do beyond the initial glance.
maybe a lot of dealer demos or lexus salespersons' cars up for sale?
to me, the 4GS has a really boring square tail, a pretty bland side profile, and a decent front in luxury/premium or downright ugly in f-sport. i think it's a styling disaster. i believe this alone turns away a LOT of potential customers.
as a former 2GS owner, i'm thrilled how far lexus has come with driving dynamics and the interior! but disappointed with exterior styling and that they didn't improve the drivetrains for this fourth gen. even a modest power bump plus the 8speed auto to help with economy would have been well praised.
the GS is now for a special customer, who likes the fact there aren't many on the road. who appreciates its finely tuned suspension (99% of drivers wouldn't, as they sit in traffic or cruise on a highway). and who falls in love with the interior. and who doesn't mind the option/package constraints and either 'take it or leave it' from inventory, or really long waits (and uninterested dealers) for custom order.
i don't think lexus will cancel the GS any time soon, and we can likely expect standard equipment, trim, and other positive changes in a year or two.
whenever i see an ES on the road however, i think there's a sharp looking car! and that combined with 10K or whatever less money makes it a easy choice to anyone comparing, not that i think many do beyond the initial glance.
maybe a lot of dealer demos or lexus salespersons' cars up for sale?
Every month too many people here with no interest in the GS beat it up instead of giving it kudos for being a success, b/c compared to the M37/56, RLX/RL, Genesis sedan it does quite damn well and I don't understand it.
Guess I'll just drive our crappy modified 4GS.
The efforts and my end and people like me are noticed by Lexus and enthusiasts sites who can appreciate the passion for the GS, like people's passion for the 5, E, A6, etc etc.
Its hilarious to me b/c when Lexus sells well people bash it for chasing sales and when Lexus meets a sales target or hovers around it with the GS its some huge point to chat about every month.
07-07-13, 01:11 AM
#80
Pole Position
I agree with Blueprint.
I can't be more impressed by the new direction that Lexus has taken, spearheaded by the new GS and now the new IS.
It seems like this time round, Lexus set out to build a car for the driving enthusiast and making its looks distinctive rather than chase sales all-out by designing an inoffensive bland-mobile.
For that Lexus should be applauded. IMO, Lexus has taken a well chosen fine line between commercial viability and a distinct design DNA in the new GS and IS models and balanced the sometimes conflicting aims very well.
BTW, global Lexus GS sales for the 4th Generation 2012 are beating the best ever sales year of the 3rd Generation 2006 : 55,777 vs 51,290
Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_G...and_production
http://www.toyota-global.com/company...production.pdf
I can't be more impressed by the new direction that Lexus has taken, spearheaded by the new GS and now the new IS.
It seems like this time round, Lexus set out to build a car for the driving enthusiast and making its looks distinctive rather than chase sales all-out by designing an inoffensive bland-mobile.
For that Lexus should be applauded. IMO, Lexus has taken a well chosen fine line between commercial viability and a distinct design DNA in the new GS and IS models and balanced the sometimes conflicting aims very well.
BTW, global Lexus GS sales for the 4th Generation 2012 are beating the best ever sales year of the 3rd Generation 2006 : 55,777 vs 51,290
Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_G...and_production
http://www.toyota-global.com/company...production.pdf
Last edited by natnut; 07-07-13 at 01:14 AM.
07-07-13, 04:37 AM
#81
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When I was shopping for my Rav4 over Memorial Day, dealers were offering $5k off Camrys...
For the first time in two generations, Honda delivered an Accord that shook the Camry, and simultaneously, Nissan dropped a 38 mpg Altima and Ford, a very competitive Fusion. I think those three competitors put a lot more effort into their midsizers, whereas Toyota probably put 7/10 into the 7th gen Camry. They also see that a new Sonata is just around the corner and need to sharpen their blades. So, as a result, the Camry is struggling right now and it very well should be.
From what I hear, the Camry is going to ride it out for another model year (2014) and the 2015 model will be a very extensive refresh or possibly an entirely new generation. I know that a 3 year life cycle would seem crazy short, but this is what I am hearing. Still, I would be more apt to expect a heavy refresh. I am hearing that we should expect Avalon-esque styling and similar interior quality. It's also time to consider new engines, but that much is just my own prediction.
I considered the Camry in my own car shopping, but a mixture of factors drew me away from it, with interior quality being near the top of the list. The Accord is really the car to beat here right now, IMO.
For the first time in two generations, Honda delivered an Accord that shook the Camry, and simultaneously, Nissan dropped a 38 mpg Altima and Ford, a very competitive Fusion. I think those three competitors put a lot more effort into their midsizers, whereas Toyota probably put 7/10 into the 7th gen Camry. They also see that a new Sonata is just around the corner and need to sharpen their blades. So, as a result, the Camry is struggling right now and it very well should be.
From what I hear, the Camry is going to ride it out for another model year (2014) and the 2015 model will be a very extensive refresh or possibly an entirely new generation. I know that a 3 year life cycle would seem crazy short, but this is what I am hearing. Still, I would be more apt to expect a heavy refresh. I am hearing that we should expect Avalon-esque styling and similar interior quality. It's also time to consider new engines, but that much is just my own prediction.
I considered the Camry in my own car shopping, but a mixture of factors drew me away from it, with interior quality being near the top of the list. The Accord is really the car to beat here right now, IMO.
As for the new Fusion and Accord, while I don't particularly like either car, yes on paper they've made very competitive cars, and the Accord for the class does have good quality in the interior, even if the interior design itself is horribly dated.
Regarding the Camry, I've been saying this for a while, but my belief is that the Camry is currently on a similar cycle as the Avalon was. The 2011 Avalon, when it debuted, Toyota called it the "new Avalon". When in fact, many of us saw this it was not a redesign, but merely a heavy refresh. Merely 2 years later, the FULLY redesigned 2013 Avalon debuted.
The current gen (2012-2013) Camry, compared to the previous-gen (2006-2011) Camry seems like a heavy refresh to many of us. In many ways, it seems like the 2011 Avalon. Body dimensions of the 2012-2013 Camry compared to the previous-gen are almost identical. Also while the current Camry did receive some chassis enhancements, fundamentally the chassis remains largely the same as the previous-gen Camry. The 2011 Avalon had a refreshed exterior, a new interior, and some other minor improvements here and there. The 2012 Camry compared to the previous gen has an updated exterior (yet virtually the same body dimensions), a new interior, and some chassis/suspension improvements. While the 2012-2013 Camry does have an improved interior, it's not the same huge leap the new Avalon and Corolla interiors have.
So therefore my belief is that the 2015 Camry will be a full redesign, with a fundamentally changed chassis, different exterior dimensions, and much improved interior and powertrains. The new Avalon was a huge leap interior-wise, and the new Corolla is a huge leap interior-wise. I expect the 2015 Camry will be a huge leap interior-wise as well. Also what has me believing the 2015 Camry will be a full redesign is some personal experience. A few years back, before the 2012 Camry debuted, I caught a glimpse of an image of an early prototype design of the 2012 Camry, and then later an image of a near-production prototype. The production model ended up looking noticeably less aggressive than that early prototype, but the near-production prototype looked accurate. Now I was disappointed and forgot about that early prototype image ... until the 2013 Avalon showed up. That early prototype Camry image I saw looks like a more aggressive version of the 2013 Avalon's styling. So the image I saw may perhaps be close to what the 2015 Camry will look like. Plus, it would make sense. The Camry has always historically looked more aggressive than the Avalon, and I don't expect this to change now.
Whereas there was a 2 year gap from the refreshed 2011 Avalon to the brand-new 2013 model, I think the 3 year gap from the 2012 Camry to the 2015 Camry is likely due to ensure high quality. Also the Camry is a much higher-volume car, so getting production ready for a new or refreshed model takes more time for a high-volume model like the Camry than it does for a lower-volume model like the Avalon.
Last edited by TRDFantasy; 07-07-13 at 04:45 AM.
07-07-13, 09:14 AM
#82
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...every time i see a camry i just think it's so cheap looking. it's like a GM car from the 80s. i've said for a long time toyota (brand) has cars for people who hate cars but have to drive something. at least they have been for the past decade. with the (scion) FRS they're trying to change, and of course lexus has some cool vehicles (IS/GS/LFA) but everytime i think the camry is bad, then i see a prius, and get close to barfing at the sheer audacity of mass producing something so ugly.
but of course, toyota knows their markets and there's definitely a market for ugly or mind-numbingly boring!
but everytime i think the camry is bad, then i see a prius, and get close to barfing at the sheer audacity of mass producing something so ugly.but of course, toyota knows their markets and there's definitely a market for ugly or mind-numbingly boring!
It might sound odd to some to hear that the Prius is great looking but I love the super sleek, raked back design. I like the ultra-modern high tech presence it has.
Clearly there are different types of car people. A "car guy' isn't a label reserved for sporting performance enthusiasts who only like the most exciting premium designs.
If I'm buying a new car today, it would likely be a Camry SE, however an Accord would be strongly considered. I'd buy it because I love it as a car. Never mind the fact that it's an overall perfect package.
How is this ugly? Or even boring?
Midsize Sedan/Coupe
1. Camry – 35,870 (Toyota)
2. Accord – 31,677 (Honda)
3. Altima – 26,904 (Nissan)
4. Fusion – 24,313 (Ford)
5. Malibu – 21,288 (Chevrolet)
6. Sonata – 19,454 (Hyundai)
7. Optima – 14,599 (Kia)
8. 200 – 12,360 (Chrysler)
9. Passat – 10,874 (Volkswagen)
10. Avenger – 7,582 (Dodge)
11. Mazda6 – 3,840 (Mazda)
New Sonata will be a lame duck. Hyundai/Kia are struggling, and will continue to struggle in the future. Their 15 minutes of fame are over.
As for the new Fusion and Accord, while I don't particularly like either car, yes on paper they've made very competitive cars, and the Accord for the class does have good quality in the interior, even if the interior design itself is horribly dated.
Regarding the Camry, I've been saying this for a while, but my belief is that the Camry is currently on a similar cycle as the Avalon was. The 2011 Avalon, when it debuted, Toyota called it the "new Avalon". When in fact, many of us saw this it was not a redesign, but merely a heavy refresh. Merely 2 years later, the FULLY redesigned 2013 Avalon debuted.
The current gen (2012-2013) Camry, compared to the previous-gen (2006-2011) Camry seems like a heavy refresh to many of us. In many ways, it seems like the 2011 Avalon. Body dimensions of the 2012-2013 Camry compared to the previous-gen are almost identical. Also while the current Camry did receive some chassis enhancements, fundamentally the chassis remains largely the same as the previous-gen Camry. The 2011 Avalon had a refreshed exterior, a new interior, and some other minor improvements here and there. The 2012 Camry compared to the previous gen has an updated exterior (yet virtually the same body dimensions), a new interior, and some chassis/suspension improvements. While the 2012-2013 Camry does have an improved interior, it's not the same huge leap the new Avalon and Corolla interiors have.
So therefore my belief is that the 2015 Camry will be a full redesign, with a fundamentally changed chassis, different exterior dimensions, and much improved interior and powertrains. The new Avalon was a huge leap interior-wise, and the new Corolla is a huge leap interior-wise. I expect the 2015 Camry will be a huge leap interior-wise as well. Also what has me believing the 2015 Camry will be a full redesign is some personal experience. A few years back, before the 2012 Camry debuted, I caught a glimpse of an image of an early prototype design of the 2012 Camry, and then later an image of a near-production prototype. The production model ended up looking noticeably less aggressive than that early prototype, but the near-production prototype looked accurate. Now I was disappointed and forgot about that early prototype image ... until the 2013 Avalon showed up. That early prototype Camry image I saw looks like a more aggressive version of the 2013 Avalon's styling. So the image I saw may perhaps be close to what the 2015 Camry will look like. Plus, it would make sense. The Camry has always historically looked more aggressive than the Avalon, and I don't expect this to change now.
Whereas there was a 2 year gap from the refreshed 2011 Avalon to the brand-new 2013 model, I think the 3 year gap from the 2012 Camry to the 2015 Camry is likely due to ensure high quality. Also the Camry is a much higher-volume car, so getting production ready for a new or refreshed model takes more time for a high-volume model like the Camry than it does for a lower-volume model like the Avalon.
As for the new Fusion and Accord, while I don't particularly like either car, yes on paper they've made very competitive cars, and the Accord for the class does have good quality in the interior, even if the interior design itself is horribly dated.
Regarding the Camry, I've been saying this for a while, but my belief is that the Camry is currently on a similar cycle as the Avalon was. The 2011 Avalon, when it debuted, Toyota called it the "new Avalon". When in fact, many of us saw this it was not a redesign, but merely a heavy refresh. Merely 2 years later, the FULLY redesigned 2013 Avalon debuted.
The current gen (2012-2013) Camry, compared to the previous-gen (2006-2011) Camry seems like a heavy refresh to many of us. In many ways, it seems like the 2011 Avalon. Body dimensions of the 2012-2013 Camry compared to the previous-gen are almost identical. Also while the current Camry did receive some chassis enhancements, fundamentally the chassis remains largely the same as the previous-gen Camry. The 2011 Avalon had a refreshed exterior, a new interior, and some other minor improvements here and there. The 2012 Camry compared to the previous gen has an updated exterior (yet virtually the same body dimensions), a new interior, and some chassis/suspension improvements. While the 2012-2013 Camry does have an improved interior, it's not the same huge leap the new Avalon and Corolla interiors have.
So therefore my belief is that the 2015 Camry will be a full redesign, with a fundamentally changed chassis, different exterior dimensions, and much improved interior and powertrains. The new Avalon was a huge leap interior-wise, and the new Corolla is a huge leap interior-wise. I expect the 2015 Camry will be a huge leap interior-wise as well. Also what has me believing the 2015 Camry will be a full redesign is some personal experience. A few years back, before the 2012 Camry debuted, I caught a glimpse of an image of an early prototype design of the 2012 Camry, and then later an image of a near-production prototype. The production model ended up looking noticeably less aggressive than that early prototype, but the near-production prototype looked accurate. Now I was disappointed and forgot about that early prototype image ... until the 2013 Avalon showed up. That early prototype Camry image I saw looks like a more aggressive version of the 2013 Avalon's styling. So the image I saw may perhaps be close to what the 2015 Camry will look like. Plus, it would make sense. The Camry has always historically looked more aggressive than the Avalon, and I don't expect this to change now.
Whereas there was a 2 year gap from the refreshed 2011 Avalon to the brand-new 2013 model, I think the 3 year gap from the 2012 Camry to the 2015 Camry is likely due to ensure high quality. Also the Camry is a much higher-volume car, so getting production ready for a new or refreshed model takes more time for a high-volume model like the Camry than it does for a lower-volume model like the Avalon.
07-07-13, 10:53 AM
#83
Lead Lap
The current gen (2012-2013) Camry, compared to the previous-gen (2006-2011) Camry seems like a heavy refresh to many of us. In many ways, it seems like the 2011 Avalon. Body dimensions of the 2012-2013 Camry compared to the previous-gen are almost identical. Also while the current Camry did receive some chassis enhancements, fundamentally the chassis remains largely the same as the previous-gen Camry. The 2011 Avalon had a refreshed exterior, a new interior, and some other minor improvements here and there. The 2012 Camry compared to the previous gen has an updated exterior (yet virtually the same body dimensions), a new interior, and some chassis/suspension improvements. While the 2012-2013 Camry does have an improved interior, it's not the same huge leap the new Avalon and Corolla interiors have.
-snip-
Whereas there was a 2 year gap from the refreshed 2011 Avalon to the brand-new 2013 model, I think the 3 year gap from the 2012 Camry to the 2015 Camry is likely due to ensure high quality. Also the Camry is a much higher-volume car, so getting production ready for a new or refreshed model takes more time for a high-volume model like the Camry than it does for a lower-volume model like the Avalon.
-snip-
Whereas there was a 2 year gap from the refreshed 2011 Avalon to the brand-new 2013 model, I think the 3 year gap from the 2012 Camry to the 2015 Camry is likely due to ensure high quality. Also the Camry is a much higher-volume car, so getting production ready for a new or refreshed model takes more time for a high-volume model like the Camry than it does for a lower-volume model like the Avalon.
I do agree that the next Camry will be more of a ground-up redesign, probably arriving in 2016. If the new Corolla/Avalon is an indication, it will be great.
07-07-13, 11:02 AM
#84
Lexus Champion
I'm a die-hard car guy and I love the Camry and Prius. Their designs, the total package, ect...IMO the Camry [SE] is better looking than anything in the mid-size class other than the Fusion and I would call the Accord a tie. I don't understand how one could consider the Camry "ugly". It's quite the opposite. It's purposely designed in a way for the most amount of people to like it and not be offended by it. The Altima and Sonata are overdone with swoopy lines. The Mazda 6 has some awkward shapes up front.
It might sound odd to some to hear that the Prius is great looking but I love the super sleek, raked back design. I like the ultra-modern high tech presence it has.
Clearly there are different types of car people. A "car guy' isn't a label reserved for sporting performance enthusiasts who only like the most exciting premium designs.
If I'm buying a new car today, it would likely be a Camry SE, however an Accord would be strongly considered. I'd buy it because I love it as a car. Never mind the fact that it's an overall perfect package.
How is this ugly? Or even boring?
Toyota sold 9.3 Camry's for every "exciting" brand new 6 Mazda sold. The 4 year old Sonata sold 5X more than the all new 6. Everyone on the interwebs love the Mazda 6 but when you enter the real world, it's a failure.
I see you arguments, but I'll disagree with your 2015 timetable for a new Camry. The current Camry is every bit an all new generation as any in the past even if it wasn't as dramatic. Toyota decided to make a smaller evolutionary design because the previous was such a good formula. Why mess with it too much? This Camry will run its normal course, 4-5 years. While it is usually 5 years, I'll admit in this case it could be 4 since this was a small evolution. But 2016 will be the earliest model year we'll see an all new Camry.
It might sound odd to some to hear that the Prius is great looking but I love the super sleek, raked back design. I like the ultra-modern high tech presence it has.
Clearly there are different types of car people. A "car guy' isn't a label reserved for sporting performance enthusiasts who only like the most exciting premium designs.
If I'm buying a new car today, it would likely be a Camry SE, however an Accord would be strongly considered. I'd buy it because I love it as a car. Never mind the fact that it's an overall perfect package.
How is this ugly? Or even boring?
Toyota sold 9.3 Camry's for every "exciting" brand new 6 Mazda sold. The 4 year old Sonata sold 5X more than the all new 6. Everyone on the interwebs love the Mazda 6 but when you enter the real world, it's a failure.
I see you arguments, but I'll disagree with your 2015 timetable for a new Camry. The current Camry is every bit an all new generation as any in the past even if it wasn't as dramatic. Toyota decided to make a smaller evolutionary design because the previous was such a good formula. Why mess with it too much? This Camry will run its normal course, 4-5 years. While it is usually 5 years, I'll admit in this case it could be 4 since this was a small evolution. But 2016 will be the earliest model year we'll see an all new Camry.
07-07-13, 08:05 PM
#85
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I
I see you arguments, but I'll disagree with your 2015 timetable for a new Camry. The current Camry is every bit an all new generation as any in the past even if it wasn't as dramatic. Toyota decided to make a smaller evolutionary design because the previous was such a good formula. Why mess with it too much? This Camry will run its normal course, 4-5 years. While it is usually 5 years, I'll admit in this case it could be 4 since this was a small evolution. But 2016 will be the earliest model year we'll see an all new Camry.
I see you arguments, but I'll disagree with your 2015 timetable for a new Camry. The current Camry is every bit an all new generation as any in the past even if it wasn't as dramatic. Toyota decided to make a smaller evolutionary design because the previous was such a good formula. Why mess with it too much? This Camry will run its normal course, 4-5 years. While it is usually 5 years, I'll admit in this case it could be 4 since this was a small evolution. But 2016 will be the earliest model year we'll see an all new Camry.
The 2013 Avalon surprised many of us, and I'm sure this is a future sign of things to come at Toyota. Toyota has stated numerous times that the product life-cycle of their models is being extended, and in addition refreshes will be much more heavy and extensive. This is exactly what happened with the last-gen Avalon; it's life cycle was extended to be longer than usual, but in return Toyota did a heavy refresh of that dated Avalon model before presenting us with a full redesign.
I'm confident this is what will happen with the Camry. Even if the 2015 Camry is not a full redesign, it will be a VERY extensive refresh, as big as a regular redesign essentially. This is based on the insider info out there, and my own feelings with regards to the early prototype image I saw years ago.
Lastly, there have been some rumors in industry magazines and publications that the 2015 Camry is supposed to be a new generation. Now how could that be? Could the current Camry really have such a short generation cycle? Or perhaps if we view the current Camry not as a new generation but a heavy refresh, then the rumors of a next-generation model in 2015 make perfect sense.
A similar case exists with the 2013 LS. Many here argue that it is a next-generation model, a full redesign. Clearly though, if you pay close attention, you can see it is a heavy refresh and NOT a full redesign. For example it still lacks certain features and options the 4GS has. Similarly, the new Corolla and Avalon have some features and chassis innovations that the Camry lacks.
I'm sorry, I had to laugh a little at this. They are by no means struggling, Just because the Sonata/Optima is not selling in Camry-level numbers isn't in indication that an automaker is struggling. Kia's recently introduced Forte, for example, shows they can still make a class leading car. I do not think Hyundai/Kia will be wearing the sales crown in the next few years, but let's cut down on the exaggeration.
It's not an uncommon practice in the industry these days to make a platform last 2 generations, with the second iteration being a significantly modified version of the original platform. The current Camry counts as a new generation and not a facelift, point blank.
I do agree that the next Camry will be more of a ground-up redesign, probably arriving in 2016. If the new Corolla/Avalon is an indication, it will be great.
I do agree that the next Camry will be more of a ground-up redesign, probably arriving in 2016. If the new Corolla/Avalon is an indication, it will be great.
07-07-13, 09:10 PM
#86
Lead Lap
Laugh all you want, but it's very simple. Their exaggerated EPA numbers were proven to be bogus on a lot of models, and they were forced to change them to more realistic numbers. They are losing marketshare in the US and other parts of the world continuously, going back to last year. Their profits are struggling as well now because the Korean won is appreciating in value. Furthermore, the North American media is no longer gushing praise about them as they have in the past few years, likely because Hyundai is longer greasing their wheels or paying them off as much as they used to.
It's definitely clear Hyundai/Kia is going to have to revise their strategy since they're not the underdog success story anymore, but there's by no means mayday signals going off, which is what I would constitute as "struggling". Their market share has slipped in the wake up very stiff competition, and they certainly aren't the only ones going through an adjustment period. In any event, many of their factories are stilling running at max capacity and unable to keep up with supply- many articles have come as of late stating their limited global supply capacity is hampering overall growth. They aren't doomed.
I didn't ignore the Avalon at all. I didn't say there was a rule as to how many facelifts a car could get before it switches to a new generation. But as far as the 2011 Avalon goes, even car magazines (C&D for example) mentioned that the 2011 model was a just a facelift and nothing more. I was never under the impression that was a new generation. It's just like the current LS460 in that regard- I don't know who you are referring to when you say "people" think its a new generation, but the media sure doesn't. The Camry is something different. It also wouldn't surprise me at all if this Camry had a rather short product cycle, as Toyota itself has said they're willing to do what it takes to stay on top. And as I said in the post you quoted, I'm looking forward to the next-gen Camry.
07-07-13, 09:47 PM
#87
Lexus Test Driver
I agree with Blueprint.
I can't be more impressed by the new direction that Lexus has taken, spearheaded by the new GS and now the new IS.
It seems like this time round, Lexus set out to build a car for the driving enthusiast and making its looks distinctive rather than chase sales all-out by designing an inoffensive bland-mobile.
For that Lexus should be applauded. IMO, Lexus has taken a well chosen fine line between commercial viability and a distinct design DNA in the new GS and IS models and balanced the sometimes conflicting aims very well.
BTW, global Lexus GS sales for the 4th Generation 2012 are beating the best ever sales year of the 3rd Generation 2006 : 55,777 vs 51,290
Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_G...and_production
http://www.toyota-global.com/company...production.pdf
I can't be more impressed by the new direction that Lexus has taken, spearheaded by the new GS and now the new IS.
It seems like this time round, Lexus set out to build a car for the driving enthusiast and making its looks distinctive rather than chase sales all-out by designing an inoffensive bland-mobile.
For that Lexus should be applauded. IMO, Lexus has taken a well chosen fine line between commercial viability and a distinct design DNA in the new GS and IS models and balanced the sometimes conflicting aims very well.
BTW, global Lexus GS sales for the 4th Generation 2012 are beating the best ever sales year of the 3rd Generation 2006 : 55,777 vs 51,290
Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_G...and_production
http://www.toyota-global.com/company...production.pdf
Based on the link you posted, it lists start of [production 2005 - which would correspond to 3GS.
07-07-13, 09:52 PM
#88
Lexus Test Driver
i have a simpler explanation (just my opinion). the ES is much better looking and of course, far less polarizing.
to me, the 4GS has a really boring square tail, a pretty bland side profile, and a decent front in luxury/premium or downright ugly in f-sport. i think it's a styling disaster. i believe this alone turns away a LOT of potential customers.
as a former 2GS owner, i'm thrilled how far lexus has come with driving dynamics and the interior! but disappointed with exterior styling and that they didn't improve the drivetrains for this fourth gen. even a modest power bump plus the 8speed auto to help with economy would have been well praised.
the GS is now for a special customer, who likes the fact there aren't many on the road. who appreciates its finely tuned suspension (99% of drivers wouldn't, as they sit in traffic or cruise on a highway). and who falls in love with the interior. and who doesn't mind the option/package constraints and either 'take it or leave it' from inventory, or really long waits (and uninterested dealers) for custom order.
i don't think lexus will cancel the GS any time soon, and we can likely expect standard equipment, trim, and other positive changes in a year or two.
whenever i see an ES on the road however, i think there's a sharp looking car! and that combined with 10K or whatever less money makes it a easy choice to anyone comparing, not that i think many do beyond the initial glance.
maybe a lot of dealer demos or lexus salespersons' cars up for sale?
to me, the 4GS has a really boring square tail, a pretty bland side profile, and a decent front in luxury/premium or downright ugly in f-sport. i think it's a styling disaster. i believe this alone turns away a LOT of potential customers.
as a former 2GS owner, i'm thrilled how far lexus has come with driving dynamics and the interior! but disappointed with exterior styling and that they didn't improve the drivetrains for this fourth gen. even a modest power bump plus the 8speed auto to help with economy would have been well praised.
the GS is now for a special customer, who likes the fact there aren't many on the road. who appreciates its finely tuned suspension (99% of drivers wouldn't, as they sit in traffic or cruise on a highway). and who falls in love with the interior. and who doesn't mind the option/package constraints and either 'take it or leave it' from inventory, or really long waits (and uninterested dealers) for custom order.
i don't think lexus will cancel the GS any time soon, and we can likely expect standard equipment, trim, and other positive changes in a year or two.
whenever i see an ES on the road however, i think there's a sharp looking car! and that combined with 10K or whatever less money makes it a easy choice to anyone comparing, not that i think many do beyond the initial glance.
maybe a lot of dealer demos or lexus salespersons' cars up for sale?
The GS looks Better in Base and especially Fsport trim than the ES. Interior is not even a comparison - GS kills the ES.
I do agree the rear of the GS is very boring and the ugly taillights cheapen the look, as regular Joe can confuse them for a Sonata/Camry etc.
07-07-13, 10:08 PM
#89
Lexus Test Driver
If they built it, with a NEW platform, obviously they felt there was a business case. Maybe they should do what BMW did
1. base the 5 off the 7 series
2. offer 4 cylinder engines
For more sales? Everyone has their math. FYI, the car sold I think around 50k units worldwide.
Not sure what language has to be spoken to explain that cars like the 5 series are BMW's main volume car or that the E-class is as popular as a taxi overseas. The GS simply will never sell in that volume nor any car.
Every month too many people here with no interest in the GS beat it up instead of giving it kudos for being a success, b/c compared to the M37/56, RLX/RL, Genesis sedan it does quite damn well and I don't understand it.
Guess I'll just drive our crappy modified 4GS.
The efforts and my end and people like me are noticed by Lexus and enthusiasts sites who can appreciate the passion for the GS, like people's passion for the 5, E, A6, etc etc.
Its hilarious to me b/c when Lexus sells well people bash it for chasing sales and when Lexus meets a sales target or hovers around it with the GS its some huge point to chat about every month.
1. base the 5 off the 7 series
2. offer 4 cylinder engines
For more sales? Everyone has their math. FYI, the car sold I think around 50k units worldwide.
Not sure what language has to be spoken to explain that cars like the 5 series are BMW's main volume car or that the E-class is as popular as a taxi overseas. The GS simply will never sell in that volume nor any car.
Every month too many people here with no interest in the GS beat it up instead of giving it kudos for being a success, b/c compared to the M37/56, RLX/RL, Genesis sedan it does quite damn well and I don't understand it.
Guess I'll just drive our crappy modified 4GS.
The efforts and my end and people like me are noticed by Lexus and enthusiasts sites who can appreciate the passion for the GS, like people's passion for the 5, E, A6, etc etc.
Its hilarious to me b/c when Lexus sells well people bash it for chasing sales and when Lexus meets a sales target or hovers around it with the GS its some huge point to chat about every month.
GS platform = shortened IS platform, therefore IS is based off the GS.
More engine options would be great for the GS, but I doubt adding a I4 turbo and/or V8 would boost sales to 4-5k range. The Eclass is basically one engine, as the V8 and AMG versions are very minor in terms of sales.
Not sure if you are referring to me, but I never called GS crappy.
To me its the opposite, the GS is GREAT and Lexus finally offers a damn Sports Package!
I was close to getting it, and will probably get it after the midlife update to replace the 5, at which point the updated powertrains would be presented i hope.
Thats why its crazy to me its selling less the 3GS, forget about BMW and MB.
This can't be called a success by Lexus. Maybe in your world? lol
BTW the current 5er and Eclass are OUTSELLING their previous Gen models by a wide margin!
07-07-13, 10:22 PM
#90
Pole Position
In the pdf I posted, the GS sales numbers i referred to, 55,777 were for the year 2012.
The 3rd Gen GS ceased production and sales in 2011. If the GS sedans sold in 2012 weren't the 3rd Gen, then what were they? Obviously the 4th Gen.
Regarding the great sales of the 3/5 series, I get the feeling that BMW's impressive3/ 5 series sales are just papering over the cracks in BMW's product line-up and BMW is irretrievably wounding its core values in its pursuit of sales at all costs.
Core values keep a car brand distinctive and gives it character. At worst, it might turn off some potential buyers but at best, holding on to core values keeps a brand image consistent and inspires loyalty in a fiercely devoted fanbase. This fanbase will evangelize for the brand and provide free word-of-mouth positive publicity that is much more credible than simple mass media adverts. For years, the 3/5 series grew to legendary status as driver's cars based on great word-of-mouth from its fiercely devoted fanbase.
Now? I go to any BMW forum and fully a third of the 3/5 subforums are gripes that the F30 3 series and F10 5 series have "lost it". "It" being the almost magical steering feel and chassis feedback that the E39/E60/E90 used to provide. There is a growing disenchantment in the formerly loyal BMW core fanbase and that's not good for longevity. Seems like current BMW sales are more driven by past hype and reflex buying by past BMW owners who expected more of the same but are unpleasantly surprised about the new product once it lands on their driveway. My own sensing is that where once new BMW 3/5 conquest sales were fuelled by a large loyalist core making personal recommendations, nowadays, it's mostly the uninformed poseurs and johnny-come-latelys who comprise the overwhelming majority of conquest sales, basically people who buy into the BMW mystique and don't really care that the actual driving no longer measures up to the reputation. These people will abandon BMW the moment BMW is no longer the flavor of the month in the automotive press/mass media.
Prediction : unless BMW sharply course-corrects and reverses the downward trend in driving dynamics plaguing all BMWs, the bottom will fall out of the 3/5 sales give or take 1- 2 years.
Last edited by natnut; 07-07-13 at 10:44 PM.