July 2013 Auto Sales Thread
08-02-13, 10:20 PM
#61
It's impossible to catch up to BMW/MB now, but Lexus will end 2013 on a high note with the new IS. I will be looking closely to see if they will be able to get back the #1 title next year. Lexus needs to keep up their MMC refreshes ala RX and LX to keep the entire lineup fresh. The GX still needs the spindle and I expect the CT will get a more aggressive spindle grille with its refresh in the next 2 years.
08-02-13, 11:34 PM
#62
uh, how do you do better price for GS and make it even more cheaper than competition than by doing what ES doing?
You guys are sounding ridiculous and are spinning in circles. With all due respect since I like you both.
Lexus is going to make ES interior as good or better than competition, but not better than $10k more expensive GS.
Go look into 3 series or C class and tell me do they have better materials or build quality vs ES... they dont... probably worse. I have been in 3 series again 2 weeks ago to "force" my buddy to buy one instead of Audi and hard plastic galore plus having to slam the doors.
Sure, I would like ES to be GS actually and cost $30k. They would sell 20k per month... and lose money on each... awesome deal.
GS is best rated car in the class with best interior, great design, good tech... and what happens, sells 4x less than ES.
So it is not GS that they are doing great with, it is ES... when market is concerned, they need to do more of how they do ES and less how they do GS, right?
If IS's biggest problem is that it doesnt have blue color or folding mirrors in the US, then I dont think they have much of a problem... People complain about 7" screen for instance, well GS has 12.3" screen and by that definition it should outsell E and 5, right?
Lexus is doing things right in USA... this is why they sell so well... they dont do it well in Europe where we have 20 options but sell nothing due to high prices.
You guys are sounding ridiculous and are spinning in circles. With all due respect since I like you both.
Lexus is going to make ES interior as good or better than competition, but not better than $10k more expensive GS.
Go look into 3 series or C class and tell me do they have better materials or build quality vs ES... they dont... probably worse. I have been in 3 series again 2 weeks ago to "force" my buddy to buy one instead of Audi and hard plastic galore plus having to slam the doors.
Sure, I would like ES to be GS actually and cost $30k. They would sell 20k per month... and lose money on each... awesome deal.
GS is best rated car in the class with best interior, great design, good tech... and what happens, sells 4x less than ES.
So it is not GS that they are doing great with, it is ES... when market is concerned, they need to do more of how they do ES and less how they do GS, right?
If IS's biggest problem is that it doesnt have blue color or folding mirrors in the US, then I dont think they have much of a problem... People complain about 7" screen for instance, well GS has 12.3" screen and by that definition it should outsell E and 5, right?
Lexus is doing things right in USA... this is why they sell so well... they dont do it well in Europe where we have 20 options but sell nothing due to high prices.
08-03-13, 01:55 AM
#63
Lexus Test Driver
ES is nothing but a rebadged Toyota Camry/Avalon....its not engineered as a Lexus model. It uses only Lexus design cues.
It only hurts Lexus reputation and brand equity.
The Tier 1 Luxury Brands - BMW, Audi, Mercedes - don't have any ES competitor.
ES competition is Buick Lacrosse, Avalon, 300C, Azera, TL - these are all sub luxury cars.
Lexus please get rid of it!
I also want to see more distinction between Lexus - Toyota, the RX is good example of this. Even though its a Toyota at heart it feels/looks like a Lexus.
As of now only the IS, GS, and LS are true Lexus engineered models.
All the rest - RX, GX, LX, CT, ES - are Toyota shared platforms.
It only hurts Lexus reputation and brand equity.
The Tier 1 Luxury Brands - BMW, Audi, Mercedes - don't have any ES competitor.
ES competition is Buick Lacrosse, Avalon, 300C, Azera, TL - these are all sub luxury cars.
Lexus please get rid of it!
I also want to see more distinction between Lexus - Toyota, the RX is good example of this. Even though its a Toyota at heart it feels/looks like a Lexus.
As of now only the IS, GS, and LS are true Lexus engineered models.
All the rest - RX, GX, LX, CT, ES - are Toyota shared platforms.
08-03-13, 02:39 AM
#64
ES is nothing but a rebadged Toyota Camry/Avalon....its not engineered as a Lexus model. It uses only Lexus design cues.
It only hurts Lexus reputation and brand equity.
The Tier 1 Luxury Brands - BMW, Audi, Mercedes - don't have any ES competitor.
ES competition is Buick Lacrosse, Avalon, 300C, Azera, TL - these are all sub luxury cars.
Lexus please get rid of it!
I also want to see more distinction between Lexus - Toyota, the RX is good example of this. Even though its a Toyota at heart it feels/looks like a Lexus.
As of now only the IS, GS, and LS are true Lexus engineered models.
All the rest - RX, GX, LX, CT, ES - are Toyota shared platforms.
It only hurts Lexus reputation and brand equity.
The Tier 1 Luxury Brands - BMW, Audi, Mercedes - don't have any ES competitor.
ES competition is Buick Lacrosse, Avalon, 300C, Azera, TL - these are all sub luxury cars.
Lexus please get rid of it!
I also want to see more distinction between Lexus - Toyota, the RX is good example of this. Even though its a Toyota at heart it feels/looks like a Lexus.
As of now only the IS, GS, and LS are true Lexus engineered models.
All the rest - RX, GX, LX, CT, ES - are Toyota shared platforms.
And I agree. The problem here is that the ES is just the rebadged Toyota Avalon with nicer interior. I personally could careless about the ES, it sells, great! But this is not the car I would buy. if I want to drive a real Lexus and have no money, I would rather buy a used GS then a rebadged Toyota Avalon. Lexus should either come up with an individual platform for the ES or simply stop selling Toyotas with Lexus logo.
08-03-13, 05:15 AM
#65
Germans are moving far ahead in this lower class direction, a lot more than Lexus... from A1 to A class to X1. All not upholding any kind of luxury class stands when it comes to perceived quality.
08-03-13, 06:39 AM
#66
Lexus Champion
I don't think I'd want to be the guy in a Lexus board meeting to suggest dropping the ES.
"I know we're on pace to sell 68,000 in North America alone, but we can make up that volume and profit with, ah, ah let me get back to you." The ES isn't going anywhere IMO.
"I know we're on pace to sell 68,000 in North America alone, but we can make up that volume and profit with, ah, ah let me get back to you." The ES isn't going anywhere IMO.
08-03-13, 09:45 AM
#67
Lexus Champion
08-03-13, 09:58 AM
#68
Lexus Test Driver
it is probably built first as lexus and then Avalon is made from it, considering that ES actually sells better than Avalon worldwide. So it is actually engineered as Lexus, and this is why Avalon is so good now most likely. Same as RX vs Highlander where RX actually sells more worldwide.
Germans are moving far ahead in this lower class direction, a lot more than Lexus... from A1 to A class to X1. All not upholding any kind of luxury class stands when it comes to perceived quality.
Germans are moving far ahead in this lower class direction, a lot more than Lexus... from A1 to A class to X1. All not upholding any kind of luxury class stands when it comes to perceived quality.
Avalon and ES both share many parts with the Camry.
Camry is engineered by Toyota and then the ES and Avalon are based on that platform.
Same with the RX.
I dont have an issue with the RX bec its really a great SUV but I much rather it be based on the GS platform.
08-03-13, 10:04 AM
#69
Lexus Test Driver
Its idiotic to sell 2 cars of the SAME SIZE (ES &GS) and not think that the cheaper one would sell more.
08-03-13, 10:43 AM
#70
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
i do believe the es weakens the lexus brand in one sense, but it reinforces the historical view of lexus as quiet, very refined, 'sensible' luxury without being too 'fancy'.
in summary, the perfect realtor's car or step up from a camry.
it ain't going anywhere, it's a very successful vehicle, no matter what some here feel.
in summary, the perfect realtor's car or step up from a camry.
it ain't going anywhere, it's a very successful vehicle, no matter what some here feel.
08-03-13, 11:53 AM
#71
Guest
Posts: n/a
Its really sad to see every month here and elsewhere the same people beating up the ES on a Lexus forum where ES owners are disrespected. The ES is still a fine automobile and its a "problem" anyone would love to have.
Who the hell would say no to 4-7k units a month of a super profitable and respected car?
Thanks for showing us that you do not know the difference between a rebadge and platform sharing. Let me explain
A Civic to CSX would be a rebadge. Its the same thing outside of badges and a couple of minor things.
An ES/Camry or 5 series/7series is platform sharing. They both share platforms from other vehicles and are completely different.
This is hilarious. You do realize Lexus is considered Tier 1, yet you left them out. Maybe you meant "the other Tier 1 brands".
Well those Tier 1 brands also offer
1 series (going FWD next go round)
A1, A2, A3,
A class, B class
I don't see you bringing those up? Lexus doesn't make small cars like those. You have no point outside of bashing the ES.
Oh and the base A6 we get here, that thing is
1. CVT
2. FWD
3. I-4 with 210hp
Looks like an ES to me.
Here are pics to remind you, either you don't know or conviently forgot of these cars from Tier 1 brands BELOW the ES. And this is not to bash on any brand, these are facts that need to be stated because you are making it seem like all the Tier 1 brands make are RWD, V-8 cars.
FWD A6 2.0T with CVT and 210hp
http://autos.aol.com/cars-Audi-A6-20...edan/overview/
Oh and btw, the Audi TT shares the Golf platform....
How dare Lexus be successful with an ES for over 20 years!!! HOW DARE THEY!!!
Who the hell would say no to 4-7k units a month of a super profitable and respected car? A Civic to CSX would be a rebadge. Its the same thing outside of badges and a couple of minor things.
An ES/Camry or 5 series/7series is platform sharing. They both share platforms from other vehicles and are completely different.
Well those Tier 1 brands also offer
1 series (going FWD next go round)
A1, A2, A3,
A class, B class
I don't see you bringing those up? Lexus doesn't make small cars like those. You have no point outside of bashing the ES.
Oh and the base A6 we get here, that thing is
1. CVT
2. FWD
3. I-4 with 210hp
Looks like an ES to me.
Here are pics to remind you, either you don't know or conviently forgot of these cars from Tier 1 brands BELOW the ES. And this is not to bash on any brand, these are facts that need to be stated because you are making it seem like all the Tier 1 brands make are RWD, V-8 cars.
FWD A6 2.0T with CVT and 210hp
http://autos.aol.com/cars-Audi-A6-20...edan/overview/
Oh and btw, the Audi TT shares the Golf platform....
How dare Lexus be successful with an ES for over 20 years!!! HOW DARE THEY!!!
Last edited by LexFather; 08-03-13 at 12:04 PM.
08-03-13, 12:05 PM
#72
Lexus Champion
Meh maybe we're taking it out on the ES unfairly, but I think its a general consensus that Toyota is not investing enough in Lexus, as if they're happy with just selling ES and RXes. Over the last 3 years BMW, MB, and Audi have presented a product onslaught that continues to this day. Many variants of high and low end models alike sporting new powertrains and design ideas. BMW has even had time to create an all new electric only sub brand with two models. If the ES didn't exist, Lexus too would be FORCED to be as agressive or face becoming Infiniti.
08-03-13, 12:12 PM
#73
Guest
Posts: n/a
Meh maybe we're taking it out on the ES unfairly, but I think its a general consensus that Toyota is not investing enough in Lexus, as if they're happy with just selling ES and RXes. Over the last 3 years BMW, MB, and Audi have presented a product onslaught that continues to this day. Many variants of high and low end models alike sporting new powertrains and design ideas. BMW has even had time to create an all new electric only sub brand with two models. If the ES didn't exist, Lexus too would be FORCED to be as agressive or face becoming Infiniti.
The ES and RX are bread and butter no different than the C, E class or 3, 5 series. How about where Lexus has expanded? They lead with hybrids (A dirty word with too many people here) and all the others have followed. The F-sport program has gone from 1, 2 cars to multiple cars and they are not factory options, not parts you put on yourself. The Lexus CT has succeeded in America where the Germans have failed.
My first Lexus was an ES, still have it and I remember the assclowns calling it a Camry rebadge. THat was nearly 20 years ago and they are still saying the same thing. Meanwhile it continues to excel, do well and now there is an amazing ES 300h.
08-03-13, 12:52 PM
#75
Lexus Test Driver
Lexus is not Tier 1.
As of today they offer ZERO Coupes, ZERO performance variants, their main sellers are Toyota Camry based products that share platform and drivetrain.
Lexus is big only in the US - it gets no respsect anywhere else in the world. This is a FACT.
We are all Lexus fans here - but lets be REAL.
MB, Audi and BMW offer a much more potent and diverse lineup in every segment by far.
Btw when Toyota invests in Lexus it can develop great things like the LFA.
As of today they offer ZERO Coupes, ZERO performance variants, their main sellers are Toyota Camry based products that share platform and drivetrain.
Lexus is big only in the US - it gets no respsect anywhere else in the world. This is a FACT.
We are all Lexus fans here - but lets be REAL.
MB, Audi and BMW offer a much more potent and diverse lineup in every segment by far.
Btw when Toyota invests in Lexus it can develop great things like the LFA.