NYC motorcycle gang ride altercation with family in SUV
10-07-13, 01:19 AM
#436
Hi all. So I've read every post in this thread, clicked every link, read every news article, watched tons of relevant videos that relate to this unfortunate event and my humanity and morality must chime in. I am not a lawyer, but I can only give my opinion on the matter. From what I've seen, especially the videos, I will put 150% blame on the bikers that started the altercation. That does not label all bikers as the instigators in this instance (but in this event many ARE law offenders on multiple offenses.) I'm sure with time more video will come to light to show what exactly led up to the event with Cruz choosing to brake check the Range Rover, but by not posting it at this moment or for the biker with the helmet cam editing the preceding events out, only weakens the case for the bikers. I will say that this rally/stunt event was unlawful and was a complete disregard for the laws of the roads and citizens, pedestrians and drivers (bikes or cars) alike. Rules of the road are in place to prevent instances of accidents and injury. I whole heartedly feel that from the video, that Cruz was bumped due to his malicious brake check but he was still able to proceed on the roadway as indicated by the stop frame website posted by another member. Why he chose to take this aggressive step is unclear but what the video does show is that he chose to swerve into the path in front of the SUV where the supposed "bump" occurred rather than remain in his lane. He then proceeds to "eye" the driver as if daring him to get closer to which Cruz finally taps his brakes causing a "bump and go" scenario. Stopping distance of each respective vehicle aside, Cruz purposely initiated the act. He expected to get tapped and therefore have a reason to attack the driver. Also, the video does clearly shows that he came to a stop in the middle of the roadway, dismounted from his bike, and approached the SUV. At this point things become unknown but what we do know is that the driver felt threatened and feared for the safety of himself and his family leading to the unfortunate events that resulted in Mieses being ran over. This does not remove the evidence that the bikers have now stopped in an active highway to which Mieses has put himself in harms way by standing in the path of a potentially harmful situation. Whether he was a good samaratan or an attacker is irrelevant. He was unlawfully stopped in a roadway. In any situation in which an accident has occurred, it is lawful to move to the shoulder... not stop in the middle of the traffic way and exit your vehicle to confront the offender (or to break up a fight in the alleged case of Mieses- which I also choose to take with a grain of salt).
With good certainty I can say that other riders would have video of these events but have chosen not to release such video as it can be incriminating to themselves or the victims, as well as the loss of life and/or limb is still possible. In my eyes, morally and ethically, those individuals have a obligation to come forward, but if they chose to is their prerogative. As for the attack, I can see that fleeing the first altercation is absolutely justifiable, especially if individuals were causing damage to the vehicle in a manner that suggested bodily harm to the driver and his family. It is apparent, however, that at the point when the SUV stops he is willing to avoid further confrontation or at the very least discuss the events, but the individual that begins to try to tear him from the car worsened the situation; adding more hostility to an already volatile situation.
As the SUV enters the traffic congestion, it is the unfortunate aggressive nature of 2-3 individuals that worsen the situation further. At this point, the SUV has nowhere to go, Lien is stuck. They choose to attack his vehicle further rather than "passively" approaching the vehicle. They choose to bash in his windows in order to get access to point their apparent rage. This is absolutely the mob mentality combined with the already hostile situation... like throwing gasoline on the fire. These riders felt they had the right to attack Lien as he was running from the scene of a crime... but this is not true. These individuals are not officers of the law; they have no right to drag a man from his vehicle much less beat him to such an extent. If they felt they had the right to do so, they would not have disappeared like cowards. They would have stayed and explained to the authorities why they physically removed him from his vehicle and beat him. Sub-doing an assailant is far different than assaulting him. At his point he was no longer a threat and had no where to run. Luckily bystanders stepped in, or I truly fear what would have come as a result not only to Lien but also his family. I feel if Lien had exited his vehicle on the highway at the first or second instance of the altercation, things would have been much worse as there were no Samaritans and the biker "brotherly" mentality was in full swing. I also feel, though, that he didn't have to full out accelerate into the bikers, but in doing so I feel he was justified in the name of self defense and protection of his family.
There are still quite a few facts missing, as well as crucial video leading up to the brake check and 911 tapes that will surface with time. I doubt this will be an open and shut case in any instance. If I were in Lein's position in my vehicle with my family or girlfriend at my side and the frantic situation unfolding as it did... with riders swarming around me in an illegal gathering on an active highway, in which they began to attack me, I FEEL I would have had a similar, albeit controlled response; but human nature and fear might not grant me that control and I might have floored the accelerator also. As for the biker mentality, I feel whole heartedly SOME bikers do form gangs but not all of them. I feel that the mentality is much like soccer fans and hooligans. I lived in Europe for quite a while (esp during this last Euro Cup 2012, particularly Russia vs Poland in which I was in Warsaw supporting Poland). The mob mentality takes over in instances in which sanity is lost to animalistic, aggressive tendency; where the acts of the individual make the acts of the group acceptable. Hooligans go out looking for trouble and usually find it. They choose a target and focus their rage whether they were part of the initiating instance of just backing up their "brothers." I feel in this instance, these bikers were the instigating factor in this situation and should be held accountable. If other bikers are defending their actions on the basis that the belong to the club of "bikers," then they are dead wrong. If bikers cant see that it is individuals such as these that give them the bad name, then they shouldn't try to justify this attack and should clearly side with the consensus to see that this altercation and explosive powder keg that followed was the fault of some bikers that were looking for trouble and obviously hell bent on breaking the law; not a man out with his wife and TWO YEAR OLD DAUGHTER for a Sunday drive.
I don't blame ALL bikers for the assault or the events that occured, but I do blame all THESE bikers that chose to stunt and show off for the group mentality that lead to this incident, just as I would if they were street racing in cars around Main Street leading to fatal motor vehicle accidents. Everyone that attended this illegal and dangerous event should take responsibility for the "hooligan" mentality that resulted in the possible paralysis of one man and the life shattering catastrophe of a two families. Period.
PS. DG (& Dave), if you can show me any driver's manual that states "when surround by an aggressively driving motorcycle swarm that automobile operators should stop in moving traffic on a crowded highway," I would love to see it. I understand it's courtesy and probably the smart thing to do, but I'm not the one breaking the law. This incidence and the charges filed against the criminals (and lack thereof against Lien) clearly show this point.
With good certainty I can say that other riders would have video of these events but have chosen not to release such video as it can be incriminating to themselves or the victims, as well as the loss of life and/or limb is still possible. In my eyes, morally and ethically, those individuals have a obligation to come forward, but if they chose to is their prerogative. As for the attack, I can see that fleeing the first altercation is absolutely justifiable, especially if individuals were causing damage to the vehicle in a manner that suggested bodily harm to the driver and his family. It is apparent, however, that at the point when the SUV stops he is willing to avoid further confrontation or at the very least discuss the events, but the individual that begins to try to tear him from the car worsened the situation; adding more hostility to an already volatile situation.
As the SUV enters the traffic congestion, it is the unfortunate aggressive nature of 2-3 individuals that worsen the situation further. At this point, the SUV has nowhere to go, Lien is stuck. They choose to attack his vehicle further rather than "passively" approaching the vehicle. They choose to bash in his windows in order to get access to point their apparent rage. This is absolutely the mob mentality combined with the already hostile situation... like throwing gasoline on the fire. These riders felt they had the right to attack Lien as he was running from the scene of a crime... but this is not true. These individuals are not officers of the law; they have no right to drag a man from his vehicle much less beat him to such an extent. If they felt they had the right to do so, they would not have disappeared like cowards. They would have stayed and explained to the authorities why they physically removed him from his vehicle and beat him. Sub-doing an assailant is far different than assaulting him. At his point he was no longer a threat and had no where to run. Luckily bystanders stepped in, or I truly fear what would have come as a result not only to Lien but also his family. I feel if Lien had exited his vehicle on the highway at the first or second instance of the altercation, things would have been much worse as there were no Samaritans and the biker "brotherly" mentality was in full swing. I also feel, though, that he didn't have to full out accelerate into the bikers, but in doing so I feel he was justified in the name of self defense and protection of his family.
There are still quite a few facts missing, as well as crucial video leading up to the brake check and 911 tapes that will surface with time. I doubt this will be an open and shut case in any instance. If I were in Lein's position in my vehicle with my family or girlfriend at my side and the frantic situation unfolding as it did... with riders swarming around me in an illegal gathering on an active highway, in which they began to attack me, I FEEL I would have had a similar, albeit controlled response; but human nature and fear might not grant me that control and I might have floored the accelerator also. As for the biker mentality, I feel whole heartedly SOME bikers do form gangs but not all of them. I feel that the mentality is much like soccer fans and hooligans. I lived in Europe for quite a while (esp during this last Euro Cup 2012, particularly Russia vs Poland in which I was in Warsaw supporting Poland). The mob mentality takes over in instances in which sanity is lost to animalistic, aggressive tendency; where the acts of the individual make the acts of the group acceptable. Hooligans go out looking for trouble and usually find it. They choose a target and focus their rage whether they were part of the initiating instance of just backing up their "brothers." I feel in this instance, these bikers were the instigating factor in this situation and should be held accountable. If other bikers are defending their actions on the basis that the belong to the club of "bikers," then they are dead wrong. If bikers cant see that it is individuals such as these that give them the bad name, then they shouldn't try to justify this attack and should clearly side with the consensus to see that this altercation and explosive powder keg that followed was the fault of some bikers that were looking for trouble and obviously hell bent on breaking the law; not a man out with his wife and TWO YEAR OLD DAUGHTER for a Sunday drive.
I don't blame ALL bikers for the assault or the events that occured, but I do blame all THESE bikers that chose to stunt and show off for the group mentality that lead to this incident, just as I would if they were street racing in cars around Main Street leading to fatal motor vehicle accidents. Everyone that attended this illegal and dangerous event should take responsibility for the "hooligan" mentality that resulted in the possible paralysis of one man and the life shattering catastrophe of a two families. Period.
PS. DG (& Dave), if you can show me any driver's manual that states "when surround by an aggressively driving motorcycle swarm that automobile operators should stop in moving traffic on a crowded highway," I would love to see it. I understand it's courtesy and probably the smart thing to do, but I'm not the one breaking the law. This incidence and the charges filed against the criminals (and lack thereof against Lien) clearly show this point.
Last edited by DaveGS4; 10-07-13 at 06:42 AM. Reason: remove personal commentary bait - knock it off or exit this thread
10-07-13, 07:37 AM
#438
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
apparently they were under cover and couldn't 'come out' so maybe that's their orders and they couldn't stop it. crazy...
10-07-13, 08:24 AM
#440
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10-07-13, 08:26 AM
#442
Lead Lap
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
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Hopefully they did not take part in running red lights or any other illegal activities.
10-07-13, 08:30 AM
#443
No, only one was undercover, but several maybe 4 others were off duty cops. Not saying these cops were involved with the fight but just in general in the area on that day or in the bike meet.
Hopefully they did not take part in running red lights or any other illegal activities.
Hopefully they did not take part in running red lights or any other illegal activities.
10-07-13, 08:44 AM
#444
I just realized that the back seat of my SC430 easily conceals a black Easton's Aluminum baseball bat.... conveniently sized. Who says the rear seat is useless in this thing?
PS: Is Range Rover stock going to go up or down? Should I buy or sell?
(too soon?)
PS: Is Range Rover stock going to go up or down? Should I buy or sell?
(too soon?)
Last edited by ShawnOk; 10-07-13 at 09:36 AM.
10-07-13, 11:18 AM
#445
And one of the bikers is now FREE by order of the judge!!!
His actions justified and was let go free!!
Linky below:
http://nypost.com/2013/10/06/cops-bu...aulted-family/
Linky below:
http://nypost.com/2013/10/06/cops-bu...aulted-family/
10-07-13, 11:38 AM
#446
His actions justified and was let go free!!
Linky below:
http://nypost.com/2013/10/06/cops-bu...aulted-family/
Linky below:
http://nypost.com/2013/10/06/cops-bu...aulted-family/
I'm sure he gave up a lot with other bikers to get the deal he did
"Under a sweetheart plea bargain overseen by Brooklyn Criminal Court Judge Suzanne Mondo, all the remaining felony drug charges against Chance were also dropped."
10-07-13, 11:43 AM
#447
Forum Administrator
iTrader: (2)
His actions justified and was let go free!!
Linky below:
http://nypost.com/2013/10/06/cops-bu...aulted-family/
Linky below:
http://nypost.com/2013/10/06/cops-bu...aulted-family/
10-07-13, 11:56 AM
#449
..........
you seem so enthused, which is sad...however, he wasn't just let go free as you want to claim it.
I'm sure he gave up a lot with other bikers to get the deal he did
"Under a sweetheart plea bargain overseen by Brooklyn Criminal Court Judge Suzanne Mondo, all the remaining felony drug charges against Chance were also dropped."
I'm sure he gave up a lot with other bikers to get the deal he did
"Under a sweetheart plea bargain overseen by Brooklyn Criminal Court Judge Suzanne Mondo, all the remaining felony drug charges against Chance were also dropped."
What makes you feel I am so enthused??? Because I am passing news of the bikers??
I find myself saying over and over that to ME the first part of the video is the drivers fault the last part of the video is the bikers.
You guys don't have to like my opinion on all of this. I don't know whats up with all the attacks on me just because I am entitled to my own opinions?
10-07-13, 12:11 PM
#450
What makes you feel I am so enthused??? Because I am passing news of the bikers??
I find myself saying over and over that to ME the first part of the video is the drivers fault the last part of the video is the bikers.
You guys don't have to like my opinion on all of this. I don't know whats up with all the attacks on me just because I am entitled to my own opinions?
I find myself saying over and over that to ME the first part of the video is the drivers fault the last part of the video is the bikers.
You guys don't have to like my opinion on all of this. I don't know whats up with all the attacks on me just because I am entitled to my own opinions?
Honestly, I doubt you looked at all the videos posted throughout news sites and youtube, etc.…that’s my opinion however
