Future of Lexus discussion 2013-2015
#301
Lexus Test Driver
I'm not so sure I completely agree with Templin's thoughts. In fact, they sound like defensive excuses in light of newly successful competitor models. Other brands do very well selling cars like the CLA and A3. Mind you they have some decontenting, but buyers don't seem to mind and sales are strong. I have also seen zero evidence selling sub-$30k cars does anything negative to a luxury brand's name or reputation. All it has done so far is bring in more profits to the maker. And isn't that the point in the longrun.... to make more money? I think Lexus could be missing out on a opportunity. The CT sort of skimmed along this affordable luxury idea, but making it a hatchback without some wood trim inside were it's biggest faults for our market.
#304
Guest
Posts: n/a
It seems every time Lexus says something, people in here want to rip it apart, put the worst spin on it and just toss negatively around the brand. Great support system.
#305
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (3)
I see Templin's point, as I see the points of Paul, Henry and others on this subject. A few random points:
1) Being hatchback-only and hybrid-only, I consider the CT quite different than the CLA or A3, which are FWD sedans with 4 cylinder gas engines - pretty much the most mainstream configuration in this country. I don't think Lexus made a ploy for volume with the $33k CT or they would have gone with a different formula. The CT also really isn't going to distract someone from buying a $37k IS or NX, either - it's too different. A3 and CLA are packaged and priced for the mainstream, and I'm sure they're also taking a bite out of A4 and C Class sales in the process.
2) Think about the business case here: Toyota has no incentive to take Lexus downmarket. IS is still a growing product - only in the last generation did we get different engine options, we don't have a high performance version (For Gen 3), there's a hybrid but it's not sold here and no wagon. Corolla (which would make sense to base a CLA-fighting Lexus on) is the best selling nameplate in the world, and both the Camry and Avalon can easily reach into the $30-38k market, along with IS and ES. I just don't think Toyota wants or needs another sedan in that price range. Mercedes and BMW have made this move because they don't have parent companies with product in this space - they want that chunk of the market. Audi has followed suit regardless of VW, I think because Merc and BMW have done it.
3) To the point about Lexus needing more high end product, I agree and it is coming. Their CUV/SUV strategy has really never been very solid: LX came first, years later we got RX, then BOF GX. The core of this market has been three-row CUVs and Lexus doesn't even have one of those yet. X5s, GLs and MDXs run $45 - $80k and they sell a ton of them. Lexus has nothing in that space, as they've relied on the RX for that market, GX is niche and LX is too expensive. As for sedans, GS is still expanding with new products and has a forthcoming entry level engine, expanded offerings for the 450h and an F model. I imagine that the next LS will have more engine options as well. We have RC coming online and shortly after that, SC/LF-LC.
As for this article specifically, quite frankly, I think Mark Templin is right. Why sacrifice the brand image just to pull people into the lineup? I have been in CLA and the interior is maybe a few steps over a Corolla, with nice Mercedes detailing. I think that the dashboard of the A3 is pretty horrible looking, and the rest of the interior feels like a $25-30k pricepoint. It is what it is. They're cheap, FWD four cylinder cars aimed at people who quite frankly don't know better and are happy with that type of vehicle. It's a strategy that is clearly driving profit, but Toyota is already the largest and most profitable automaker without pimping Lexus to get there. I just don't think we're going to see them change that anytime soon, either.
1) Being hatchback-only and hybrid-only, I consider the CT quite different than the CLA or A3, which are FWD sedans with 4 cylinder gas engines - pretty much the most mainstream configuration in this country. I don't think Lexus made a ploy for volume with the $33k CT or they would have gone with a different formula. The CT also really isn't going to distract someone from buying a $37k IS or NX, either - it's too different. A3 and CLA are packaged and priced for the mainstream, and I'm sure they're also taking a bite out of A4 and C Class sales in the process.
2) Think about the business case here: Toyota has no incentive to take Lexus downmarket. IS is still a growing product - only in the last generation did we get different engine options, we don't have a high performance version (For Gen 3), there's a hybrid but it's not sold here and no wagon. Corolla (which would make sense to base a CLA-fighting Lexus on) is the best selling nameplate in the world, and both the Camry and Avalon can easily reach into the $30-38k market, along with IS and ES. I just don't think Toyota wants or needs another sedan in that price range. Mercedes and BMW have made this move because they don't have parent companies with product in this space - they want that chunk of the market. Audi has followed suit regardless of VW, I think because Merc and BMW have done it.
3) To the point about Lexus needing more high end product, I agree and it is coming. Their CUV/SUV strategy has really never been very solid: LX came first, years later we got RX, then BOF GX. The core of this market has been three-row CUVs and Lexus doesn't even have one of those yet. X5s, GLs and MDXs run $45 - $80k and they sell a ton of them. Lexus has nothing in that space, as they've relied on the RX for that market, GX is niche and LX is too expensive. As for sedans, GS is still expanding with new products and has a forthcoming entry level engine, expanded offerings for the 450h and an F model. I imagine that the next LS will have more engine options as well. We have RC coming online and shortly after that, SC/LF-LC.
As for this article specifically, quite frankly, I think Mark Templin is right. Why sacrifice the brand image just to pull people into the lineup? I have been in CLA and the interior is maybe a few steps over a Corolla, with nice Mercedes detailing. I think that the dashboard of the A3 is pretty horrible looking, and the rest of the interior feels like a $25-30k pricepoint. It is what it is. They're cheap, FWD four cylinder cars aimed at people who quite frankly don't know better and are happy with that type of vehicle. It's a strategy that is clearly driving profit, but Toyota is already the largest and most profitable automaker without pimping Lexus to get there. I just don't think we're going to see them change that anytime soon, either.
#306
Guest
Posts: n/a
I see Templin's point, as I see the points of Paul, Henry and others on this subject. A few random points:
1) Being hatchback-only and hybrid-only, I consider the CT quite different than the CLA or A3, which are FWD sedans with 4 cylinder gas engines - pretty much the most mainstream configuration in this country. I don't think Lexus made a ploy for volume with the $33k CT or they would have gone with a different formula. The CT also really isn't going to distract someone from buying a $37k IS or NX, either - it's too different. A3 and CLA are packaged and priced for the mainstream, and I'm sure they're also taking a bite out of A4 and C Class sales in the process.
2) Think about the business case here: Toyota has no incentive to take Lexus downmarket. IS is still a growing product - only in the last generation did we get different engine options, we don't have a high performance version (For Gen 3), there's a hybrid but it's not sold here and no wagon. Corolla (which would make sense to base a CLA-fighting Lexus on) is the best selling nameplate in the world, and both the Camry and Avalon can easily reach into the $30-38k market, along with IS and ES. I just don't think Toyota wants or needs another sedan in that price range. Mercedes and BMW have made this move because they don't have parent companies with product in this space - they want that chunk of the market. Audi has followed suit regardless of VW, I think because Merc and BMW have done it.
3) To the point about Lexus needing more high end product, I agree and it is coming. Their CUV/SUV strategy has really never been very solid: LX came first, years later we got RX, then BOF GX. The core of this market has been three-row CUVs and Lexus doesn't even have one of those yet. X5s, GLs and MDXs run $45 - $80k and they sell a ton of them. Lexus has nothing in that space, as they've relied on the RX for that market, GX is niche and LX is too expensive. As for sedans, GS is still expanding with new products and has a forthcoming entry level engine, expanded offerings for the 450h and an F model. I imagine that the next LS will have more engine options as well. We have RC coming online and shortly after that, SC/LF-LC.
As for this article specifically, quite frankly, I think Mark Templin is right. Why sacrifice the brand image just to pull people into the lineup? I have been in CLA and the interior is maybe a few steps over a Corolla, with nice Mercedes detailing. I think that the dashboard of the A3 is pretty horrible looking, and the rest of the interior feels like a $25-30k pricepoint. It is what it is. They're cheap, FWD four cylinder cars aimed at people who quite frankly don't know better and are happy with that type of vehicle. It's a strategy that is clearly driving profit, but Toyota is already the largest and most profitable automaker without pimping Lexus to get there. I just don't think we're going to see them change that anytime soon, either.
1) Being hatchback-only and hybrid-only, I consider the CT quite different than the CLA or A3, which are FWD sedans with 4 cylinder gas engines - pretty much the most mainstream configuration in this country. I don't think Lexus made a ploy for volume with the $33k CT or they would have gone with a different formula. The CT also really isn't going to distract someone from buying a $37k IS or NX, either - it's too different. A3 and CLA are packaged and priced for the mainstream, and I'm sure they're also taking a bite out of A4 and C Class sales in the process.
2) Think about the business case here: Toyota has no incentive to take Lexus downmarket. IS is still a growing product - only in the last generation did we get different engine options, we don't have a high performance version (For Gen 3), there's a hybrid but it's not sold here and no wagon. Corolla (which would make sense to base a CLA-fighting Lexus on) is the best selling nameplate in the world, and both the Camry and Avalon can easily reach into the $30-38k market, along with IS and ES. I just don't think Toyota wants or needs another sedan in that price range. Mercedes and BMW have made this move because they don't have parent companies with product in this space - they want that chunk of the market. Audi has followed suit regardless of VW, I think because Merc and BMW have done it.
3) To the point about Lexus needing more high end product, I agree and it is coming. Their CUV/SUV strategy has really never been very solid: LX came first, years later we got RX, then BOF GX. The core of this market has been three-row CUVs and Lexus doesn't even have one of those yet. X5s, GLs and MDXs run $45 - $80k and they sell a ton of them. Lexus has nothing in that space, as they've relied on the RX for that market, GX is niche and LX is too expensive. As for sedans, GS is still expanding with new products and has a forthcoming entry level engine, expanded offerings for the 450h and an F model. I imagine that the next LS will have more engine options as well. We have RC coming online and shortly after that, SC/LF-LC.
As for this article specifically, quite frankly, I think Mark Templin is right. Why sacrifice the brand image just to pull people into the lineup? I have been in CLA and the interior is maybe a few steps over a Corolla, with nice Mercedes detailing. I think that the dashboard of the A3 is pretty horrible looking, and the rest of the interior feels like a $25-30k pricepoint. It is what it is. They're cheap, FWD four cylinder cars aimed at people who quite frankly don't know better and are happy with that type of vehicle. It's a strategy that is clearly driving profit, but Toyota is already the largest and most profitable automaker without pimping Lexus to get there. I just don't think we're going to see them change that anytime soon, either.
http://www.complex.com/sports/2013/1...d-camry-buyers
http://jalopnik.com/hot-selling-merc...d-b-1469867076
It has sold AMAZINGLY well, it is very well received though doing pretty average in reviews. Consumers LOVE the car. They seem to be everywhere.
The job will be on dealers to appease these new customers to the brand. Also I've now heard plenty jokes of the CLA/CLS. Same with the A3. BMW actually has targeted both with their RWD 320 calling them out for being FWD econo cars in some advertising.
Pretty interesting stuff
#307
Lexus Champion
Well, first of all, I did not mean for that post to be harsh or this below... I am harsh on yellow media reports making big deal out of it, not you personally.
I am not missing anything. I remember clearly how TMG developed LS with twin turbo's with wanting to be Lexus's "AMG" and I remember how that turned out to be bollocks.
Toyota does not operate as a huge single entity. TMG is free to operate on their own, same as other subsidiaries of TMC and they are free to put forward proposals to TMC... and then TMC decides if they want to do that or not. They decided to not go with twin turbo LS. They decided to not go with TMG as a brand for high performance Lexus vehicles. Even Yaris WRC is only in development, not confirmed to run anywhere yet. Those final decisions are made by TMC.
I can tell you right now that them doing manual transmission for hybrids for application in road cars is funny and hilarious. Not because it is stupid idea (it is), but also because powertrain development would not be done by TMG in any case.
All the powertrain for TS040 and 1.6 GRE was done at new Higashifuji technical centre, not by TMG.
I am not missing anything. I remember clearly how TMG developed LS with twin turbo's with wanting to be Lexus's "AMG" and I remember how that turned out to be bollocks.
Toyota does not operate as a huge single entity. TMG is free to operate on their own, same as other subsidiaries of TMC and they are free to put forward proposals to TMC... and then TMC decides if they want to do that or not. They decided to not go with twin turbo LS. They decided to not go with TMG as a brand for high performance Lexus vehicles. Even Yaris WRC is only in development, not confirmed to run anywhere yet. Those final decisions are made by TMC.
I can tell you right now that them doing manual transmission for hybrids for application in road cars is funny and hilarious. Not because it is stupid idea (it is), but also because powertrain development would not be done by TMG in any case.
All the powertrain for TS040 and 1.6 GRE was done at new Higashifuji technical centre, not by TMG.
Anyway, imo Lexus would be 'selling out' if they made sub 30k cars for volume. Thats not Lexus. Theyre about cars that come loaded for the price. BMW and co. charge you out the rear for standard equipment on a Lexus. Thats their selling point, they should keep to it.
Last edited by TF109B; 07-31-14 at 05:30 PM.
#308
You still refer to the engines made in Japan, which has nothing to do with their claims. TMG made the F1 cars, did those engines come from Japan? No. So saying that the current engines in the race cars have some relation to TMG being incapable or whatever is useless. Theyre perfectly capable of doing anything and everything in house. The TMG brand plan was about that. They didnt go ahead with it, but that means little to their capabilities. In fact that is the opposite. Youre discrediting them because the THS-R and other race engines are japanese made and they didnt do the TMG 'brand' performance cars. You nor I are fortune tellers so we probably should hold off saying things are certain one way or the other.
between comment happy TMG president and rumor happy Aussie/UK press, sure, I am willing to bet that most of that stuff is going to be bollocks.. so far none of those rumors of wild ideas have run true at all - and we have few years to reflect on. So it is up to them to prove that it is valid, not us... so far they have 0 credibility. Credibility is earned not assumed.
And in general, since TMG is not developing engines right now, even for race applications , I seriously doubt that they can produce manual transmission for hybrid powertrains or pretty much anything for production vehicles that is going to be "better" than what people in Higashi-Fuji technical centre will do. Toyota built this huge tech center to concentrate engine development in same place for better sharing of ideas and better work environment so I seriously doubt that TMG has capabilities and people that can come close to that.
#309
Lead Lap
how much are the a class and b class? i look at this globally. the problem is with bmw and mb is, at least to me, i keep on getting the perception that they are trying to have cheaper and smaller vehicles under their brand to attract more buyers. to me that's a horrible move when they are luxury brands to begin with and have cars well into the 6 figures. we also saw it with the ct, hs, and the nx too, but at least i feel lexus is staying stronger on the bottom line
#311
Lexus Champion
between comment happy TMG president and rumor happy Aussie/UK press, sure, I am willing to bet that most of that stuff is going to be bollocks.. so far none of those rumors of wild ideas have run true at all - and we have few years to reflect on. So it is up to them to prove that it is valid, not us... so far they have 0 credibility. Credibility is earned not assumed.
And in general, since TMG is not developing engines right now, even for race applications , I seriously doubt that they can produce manual transmission for hybrid powertrains or pretty much anything for production vehicles that is going to be "better" than what people in Higashi-Fuji technical centre will do. Toyota built this huge tech center to concentrate engine development in same place for better sharing of ideas and better work environment so I seriously doubt that TMG has capabilities and people that can come close to that.
And in general, since TMG is not developing engines right now, even for race applications , I seriously doubt that they can produce manual transmission for hybrid powertrains or pretty much anything for production vehicles that is going to be "better" than what people in Higashi-Fuji technical centre will do. Toyota built this huge tech center to concentrate engine development in same place for better sharing of ideas and better work environment so I seriously doubt that TMG has capabilities and people that can come close to that.
Man, I just linked to their management website. Hisatake Murata is called the founder of racing hybrids- works for TMG. Did you miss that? Surely the staff at TMG have plenty of experience. In fact they just had a job add for electrical systems and mechanical design engineers http://www.toyota-motorsport.com/en/...unities-at-tmg. I dont think you know just what Toyota has been doing over there.
#314
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
how much are the a class and b class? i look at this globally. the problem is with bmw and mb is, at least to me, i keep on getting the perception that they are trying to have cheaper and smaller vehicles under their brand to attract more buyers. to me that's a horrible move when they are luxury brands to begin with and have cars well into the 6 figures. we also saw it with the ct, hs, and the nx too, but at least i feel lexus is staying stronger on the bottom line
so bmw and mb need to do stripped 1 series, a/b class, etc. lexus does not.
in the u.s. it's a REAL problem for bmw/mb as they will need higher volumes of high fuel economy models sold to reach CAFE standards, or pay huge fines. lexus/audi do not have this problem as far as i know.
and to me it doesn't matter if cars are leased or bought. sure a lot of bmw and mb are leased, but i also know a lot of very rich people who only lease because they are rich enough for new cars every 2-3 years. i am not saying this is the case for all at all, especially on cheaper models, there are plenty of people who are just stretching to get their feet into the luxury brand.
i probably see more rich people in mb brand than say lexus
on the high end, like s-class / LS, i bet most are leased regardless, and a lot of the buyers are getting the vehicles to 'look' rich rather than actually being rich. of course there are still a lot of rich buyers/leasers too.
#315
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
3) To the point about Lexus needing more high end product, I agree and it is coming. Their CUV/SUV strategy has really never been very solid: LX came first, years later we got RX, then BOF GX. The core of this market has been three-row CUVs and Lexus doesn't even have one of those yet.
the lx of course is a rebadged upscale landcruiser and the gx is a rebadged and upscale prado. lexus must make a TON of money per unit with these, especially as they are now very old. they also make a TON on the RX because it's old, made in Canada, and not really very luxurious. but all 3 are highly reliable, extremely well made, distinctive, and respected. the trick base model pricing of the gx kickstarted the ol' gal's sales, which was genius marketing. on a related note, i wonder if they did a base GS450h for example to get more people experiencing the amazing drivetrain, whether that would help? anyway, lexus is no doubt happy with rx/gx/lx sales, but yeah, as you point out, they're winning a battle and losing a war compared to x5/gl/mdx, etc. but lexus no doubt knows it, and again, long view, they'll get there. not as quick as any of us would though.