Will Lexus ever answer back?
11-13-13 | 05:08 PM
#31
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,285
Likes: 43
From: NV
In many ways, this thread reminds me of the thread from maybe a year or two ago about the bulletins from the Lexus sales' advisors conference, where basically the salesmen said that Lexus had to have more models and more variants and more features and more power and more reliability than their competitors and oh yeah also be cheaper too. I don't know what unicorns they were chasing or that people are chasing here, but there is a cost for everything.
I am referring to performance models. Lets take sales out of the equation .Also the IS, GS, 5 series, etc are not performance models. I am talking M, AMG, etc. I see your point. I am referring to the hardcore performance cars that are absent at Lexus. I know "performance" models are low volume even if you do include the GS, but these model have to be produced to elevate the brand image. ...
Now, something like the 3IS, IS-F, or FT86 because all have a high level of steering and overall feedback/communication, not to mention driver engagement, all derived from Toyota's thousands of hours of automotive testing and racing of the LFA (and IS-F, for that matter) at the Nürburgring and other tracks? Or a McLaren P13 because it has a MonoCell-derived carbonfiber monocoque and the 3.8LV8 twin turbo just like the 12C and P1? Now we're talking.
I also think it's utterly obvious which is better for the driving enthusiast.
11-13-13 | 08:02 PM
#32
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,715
Likes: 89
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Originally Posted by gengar
I also think it's utterly obvious which is better for the driving enthusiast.
11-13-13 | 08:32 PM
#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
Problem is, Lexus was never really intended, from its start back in 1990, to be a true so-called "enthusiast's" brand......certainly not in the BMW or Audi mold. What Lexus did, with their well-built, luxury-oriented cars of that period, they did extremely well, which is why the company succeeded. Infiniti, on the other hand, unlike Lexus, originally tried to build a Japanese BMW 7-series, marketing the 1Gen Q45 as a luxury/sport-sedan. The result, as you all know, was an utter disaster, and, despite the relative success of the G-models, has suffered from poor marketing and indecision ever since. There are simply some things that the Germans do best; there are some things that the Japanese do best, and, when you try and mix the two, it can be a formula for trouble.
Let's not forget German cars humble roots either and BMW was known more for Isettas and econo cars until after the 2002.
11-13-13 | 09:46 PM
#34
Pole Position
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,602
Likes: 88
From: Singapore
Problem is, Lexus was never really intended, from its start back in 1990, to be a true so-called "enthusiast's" brand......certainly not in the BMW or Audi mold. What Lexus did, with their well-built, luxury-oriented cars of that period, they did extremely well, which is why the company succeeded. Infiniti, on the other hand, unlike Lexus, originally tried to build a Japanese BMW 7-series, marketing the 1Gen Q45 as a luxury/sport-sedan. The result, as you all know, was an utter disaster, and, despite the relative success of the G-models, has suffered from poor marketing and indecision ever since. There are simply some things that the Germans do best; there are some things that the Japanese do best, and, when you try and mix the two, it can be a formula for trouble.
I'm all for Germans being more reliable and more affordable. I'm all for Lexus and the other Japanese/Korean brands being more sporty and exciting. That can only benefit the consumer. I would hate to live in a world where every car brand is pigeon-holed and forced back into their corner whenever they try to branch out and expand their capabilities.
Perhaps that's why you're lukewarm on the recent F-Sport improved Lexuses : you want Lexus to continue to be your grandfather's Lexus of old : solid and boring.
Me : I'm glad the current Lexuses aren't afraid to be in-your-face in styling and have upped the driving dynamics and more importantly, improved their ride-handling balance to even outshine the Germans.
11-14-13 | 01:12 AM
#35
Problem is, Lexus was never really intended, from its start back in 1990, to be a true so-called "enthusiast's" brand......certainly not in the BMW or Audi mold. What Lexus did, with their well-built, luxury-oriented cars of that period, they did extremely well, which is why the company succeeded. Infiniti, on the other hand, unlike Lexus, originally tried to build a Japanese BMW 7-series, marketing the 1Gen Q45 as a luxury/sport-sedan. The result, as you all know, was an utter disaster, and, despite the relative success of the G-models, has suffered from poor marketing and indecision ever since. There are simply some things that the Germans do best; there are some things that the Japanese do best, and, when you try and mix the two, it can be a formula for trouble.
Seriously? Care to elaborate or have examples? So where is BMW's LFA? Are you Germany has never built a reliable car? How do you feel about the joint Toyota/BMW sports car?
Lexus has been answering back, much like Cadillac has against the Euro onslaught. I applaud them. My biggest concern for Lexus and any of these "Luxury" makers is that we're paying top dollar for plastics. These are Luxury cars and should be built with quality materials.
11-14-13 | 02:10 AM
#36
Pole Position
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,426
Likes: 7
From: VA
I'm one of the old folks, you want speed and performance, buy a BMW, hope Lexus stays Lexus!
11-15-13 | 02:29 PM
#37
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
From: Washington DC Metro
In the last 9 years I have owned 4 Lexus models, a 98 Supra and 07 E63 AMG. The 4 Lexus have all been great cars and gave me what I wanted from them. During that time the Lexus were used as daily commuters. I had the Supra for 5 of those years and used it for that sporty excitement that the Monday-Friday cars couldn't achieve. The Supra became a little less street able over the year. It was a blast to take out on a Saturday night and I usually made 12-15 car shows a year with it.
One day I woke up and just wanted 1 car that served all purposes. In my eyes that meant less insurance cost, detail time and maintenance cost. I sold the Supra for 70% of what I had in it. Not bad for 5 years of fun. The E63 was a nice car. Not built to Lexus quality level. It offered some nice power, great braking and daily sporty driving. I sold it only 1 year after due to the horrible depreciation, transmissions setup was not well executed by MB and Audio system honestly was crap compared to ML. I contemplated getting an IS-F but it was just to small for me. I'm 6-3 300lbs and that just wasn't going to work.
Now I've sold my 05 LS430 and decided to rock my 02 GS300 until my next house purchase is completed in Spring 2014. The GS will be sold in Spring. So what will I buy for summer 2014?? I have been saving up some car funds but do I want another Lexus? Do I get the horrible ownership experience German car? Do I do something like a 2010 LS Sport?
The reason I listed so much personal information is because this is what a consumers mind processes when shopping for their next car. We weigh out options and create question's for the manufactures like WHY? Nobody wants to settle for a car that's missing something when they spend hard earned money. Not everybody has $150k to spend on a 2 car fleet. Trust me if I did then a LS460 would get me around and a ZO6 would make me smile on weekends. THIS IS THE REASON A QUALITY BRAND LIKE LEXUS SHOULD MAKE ALL ROUND CARS! Some of us would pay 90k for the best overall car to own. Hell when it's paid off in 5 years it will still be worth 50k-60k.
Maybe I just get the LS and toss a Supercharger on it. I'll never get what I want unless I customize it to my own personal needs. Come on GS-F I would buy you Sir!
One day I woke up and just wanted 1 car that served all purposes. In my eyes that meant less insurance cost, detail time and maintenance cost. I sold the Supra for 70% of what I had in it. Not bad for 5 years of fun. The E63 was a nice car. Not built to Lexus quality level. It offered some nice power, great braking and daily sporty driving. I sold it only 1 year after due to the horrible depreciation, transmissions setup was not well executed by MB and Audio system honestly was crap compared to ML. I contemplated getting an IS-F but it was just to small for me. I'm 6-3 300lbs and that just wasn't going to work.
Now I've sold my 05 LS430 and decided to rock my 02 GS300 until my next house purchase is completed in Spring 2014. The GS will be sold in Spring. So what will I buy for summer 2014?? I have been saving up some car funds but do I want another Lexus? Do I get the horrible ownership experience German car? Do I do something like a 2010 LS Sport?
The reason I listed so much personal information is because this is what a consumers mind processes when shopping for their next car. We weigh out options and create question's for the manufactures like WHY? Nobody wants to settle for a car that's missing something when they spend hard earned money. Not everybody has $150k to spend on a 2 car fleet. Trust me if I did then a LS460 would get me around and a ZO6 would make me smile on weekends. THIS IS THE REASON A QUALITY BRAND LIKE LEXUS SHOULD MAKE ALL ROUND CARS! Some of us would pay 90k for the best overall car to own. Hell when it's paid off in 5 years it will still be worth 50k-60k.
Maybe I just get the LS and toss a Supercharger on it. I'll never get what I want unless I customize it to my own personal needs. Come on GS-F I would buy you Sir!
11-15-13 | 02:44 PM
#38
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,715
Likes: 89
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
That's not quite what I said. I referred to what the Germans and Japanese could do BEST, not the ONLY things they could do.
11-15-13 | 02:52 PM
#39
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,715
Likes: 89
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
The E63 was a nice car. Not built to Lexus quality level. It offered some nice power, great braking and daily sporty driving. I sold it only 1 year after due to the horrible depreciation, transmissions setup was not well executed by MB and Audio system honestly was crap compared to ML. I contemplated getting an IS-F but it was just to small for me. I'm 6-3 300lbs and that just wasn't going to work.
11-15-13 | 03:49 PM
#40
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
From: Washington DC Metro
Maybe so, but the E63 was still one bad-a** sedan. The last one I reviewed had the power of a freight train. Its 507 HP and 469 ft-lbs. of torque, had I cut the traction/stability control off (which I didn't do), could have probably lit up the rear tires and done a burnout a block long. In some ways, it reminded me, power-wise, of the old Chevelle 454s, Dodge/Plymouth dual-quad Hemis/440 6-packs, and Olds/Buick/Pontiac 455s I remember from high school.....only with a heck of a lot more refinement in the chassis/steering/suspension, and yes, a heck of a lot more expensive.
11-15-13 | 08:12 PM
#41
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,508
Likes: 0
From: IL
Toyota/Lexus has lost me as an owner, and is losing me as an enthusiast. Random example: I just saw a GS350 at Costco, and no lie - the Hyundai Genesis sedan is a WAY better looking car...more elegant and sportier looking.
Anyway, "new engines are coming", blah, blah, blah. WHEN?? How long are we supposed to wait for them to catch up? These F sports with no extra power are a joke. They need turbos yesterday. And when are they ever going to offer a good (ie dual clutch) transmission? The manual mode - to clarify, that's "MANUAL" mode - in my IS350 was a self-shifting JOKE....I hope whoever designed and signed off on that system is now in North Korea breaking rocks.
And how many of their supposed sport sedans (to be fair, this applies somewhat to the whole industry) come with a limited slip diff? It took them 2 years to pull their heads out on that one for the IS-F. Pathetic. Which by the way...no thanks on the big bore V8 - if I want that, I'll buy domestic. Same goes for you, Infiniti. The Japanese must bring back our boost immediately! > : ( lol
Pretty sad that the only Japanese car to offer all this (that I can think of) is the Evo X. Which by the way, thankfully does the paddles correctly like Infiniti and Ferrari...on the COLUMN.
Anyway, "new engines are coming", blah, blah, blah. WHEN?? How long are we supposed to wait for them to catch up? These F sports with no extra power are a joke. They need turbos yesterday. And when are they ever going to offer a good (ie dual clutch) transmission? The manual mode - to clarify, that's "MANUAL" mode - in my IS350 was a self-shifting JOKE....I hope whoever designed and signed off on that system is now in North Korea breaking rocks.
And how many of their supposed sport sedans (to be fair, this applies somewhat to the whole industry) come with a limited slip diff? It took them 2 years to pull their heads out on that one for the IS-F. Pathetic. Which by the way...no thanks on the big bore V8 - if I want that, I'll buy domestic. Same goes for you, Infiniti. The Japanese must bring back our boost immediately! > : ( lol
Pretty sad that the only Japanese car to offer all this (that I can think of) is the Evo X. Which by the way, thankfully does the paddles correctly like Infiniti and Ferrari...on the COLUMN.
The vehicles i drive now, and in the past my GS, i feel like they have a soul, a character, an edge to them. I wish I could say the same about any lexus model now because i am yearning to get back into the brand, but instead i am looking at 06+ Porsche Carrera 4. Unless things change, the last lexus i will eventually buy is a pre-spindle LS600hl with executive seating package. I feel that the LS600hl also lacks a soul, but at least it embodies what i feel lexus does best, which is deliver ultimate luxury.
11-15-13 | 09:25 PM
#42
Guest
Posts: n/a
The current GS has possibly more soul than the Gs 400. They both bring smiles to my face. More power is coming and hopefully people complaining will give the new cars a chance. If not the competition has plenty of choices and they are amazing.
Good times.
Good times.
11-16-13 | 12:30 AM
#43
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,019
Likes: 0
From: NSW
The irony is that Lexus in the 90s actually was at the forefront of performance. Remember GS400, LS400, SC400 were all ahead of the game.
But now they are just too safe, lazy and don't have the guts to beat up the big boys. Even though they easily could if they wanted to.
F-Sports for example is nothing more than a cosmetic add on. Half baked intentions.
Sad really.
But now they are just too safe, lazy and don't have the guts to beat up the big boys. Even though they easily could if they wanted to.
F-Sports for example is nothing more than a cosmetic add on. Half baked intentions.
Sad really.
11-16-13 | 12:39 AM
#44
I would love to see Lexus position F-Sport the way Audi does with S and Cadillac is now doing with VSport in terms of mid level performance to the hot RS and V models.
A6, S6, RS6
CTS, CTS VSport, CTS-V
GS, GS F-Sport, GS-F
Make it happen Lexus!
A6, S6, RS6
CTS, CTS VSport, CTS-V
GS, GS F-Sport, GS-F
Make it happen Lexus!
11-16-13 | 12:41 AM
#45
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,019
Likes: 0
From: NSW
what i find interesting, and somewhat sad, is the number of times over the last decade that we've heard lexus say they're becoming leaner, meaner and more responsive to market changes. They've been criticized for being slow to react for years, they know it, they acknowledge it... But don't really do much to change it. Supposedly the board was cut in half, lexus is directly accountable to akio, etc. All to speed up decision making times and get things done. I am still not convinced, but we will see.
Rc and nx are good signs that lexus is reacting to segments where it has been absent, but being quick to react means more than just entering new markets - improving technology, upgrading engines, making more meaningful updates between redesign and refresh, etc.
Aside from low volume hybrids, the gs line has gained 6 total horsepower since 1998. 300hp gs 400 in 1998 to 306 hp gs 350 in 2014. very sad. Lexus and toyota must be dumping the majority of their r&d budget into hybrids, because toyota's entire engine portfolio is aging at this point. The gr v6 is a decade old with no updates, the 5.7l iforce v8 is 8 years old with no updates, the 4.6l v8 is not even acceptable, but the 2.5l ar i4 was redesigned in 2009. Joy. That's mostly a toyota engine. We do know that the 2.0t is on the horizon, but lexus has had plenty - plenty of time and opportunities to make subtle updates to the ur and gr engines over nearly a decade.
Lexus used to care. The 2gs threw the gauntlet down with 300 horsepower in 1998 and it's been a race ever since, though lexus has dropped out. When the 3gs debuted, bmw and mercedes dropped 500hp m5s and e55/63s. 4gs is here, and the germans are pushing 600hp now. I legitimately worry that lexus is being left so far behind that they may not be able to catch up.
Some will raise the point that lexus is playing a different game and investing in hybrids - this is true - but gs450h makes up, what, 5% of gs sales? Not one lick of advertising, either. We have no is 300h here. Rxh is a solid core and es 300h is great as well, but lexus entire core product portfolio - is, es, gs, rx - is concentrated between 200 and 306hp. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Gs needs additional differentiation away from the es and the best way to do it, imo, would be a further upgraded v6, a higher power option, be it v8 or v6t, and a gs f.
It's quite obvious that when the german's want to do something, they put their mind to it and make it happen almost immediately. New engines debuting left and right, new variants, new models, refreshes, redesigns, new technology, 7 and 8ats across the line, etc. I'm not even talking about high dollar sports cars, vehicle customization programs or high performance models - this is just their core, ranging from entry level to full size. Cadillac has now joined the big boys and is playing to win with plenty of $$ backing from gm. For the life of me, with all of toyota's financial resources, i can not understand why we don't have a larger, faster, more comprehensive, more defined lexus brand.
I don't mean for this post to downplay any of lexus recent success - design is improving, driving dynamics are best in class and we do have some exciting new models coming down the line. However, lexus seems to be taking two steps forward and one step back...all while it's competitors are confidently blazing ahead with no reservations. It's a little discouraging.
Rc and nx are good signs that lexus is reacting to segments where it has been absent, but being quick to react means more than just entering new markets - improving technology, upgrading engines, making more meaningful updates between redesign and refresh, etc.
Aside from low volume hybrids, the gs line has gained 6 total horsepower since 1998. 300hp gs 400 in 1998 to 306 hp gs 350 in 2014. very sad. Lexus and toyota must be dumping the majority of their r&d budget into hybrids, because toyota's entire engine portfolio is aging at this point. The gr v6 is a decade old with no updates, the 5.7l iforce v8 is 8 years old with no updates, the 4.6l v8 is not even acceptable, but the 2.5l ar i4 was redesigned in 2009. Joy. That's mostly a toyota engine. We do know that the 2.0t is on the horizon, but lexus has had plenty - plenty of time and opportunities to make subtle updates to the ur and gr engines over nearly a decade.
Lexus used to care. The 2gs threw the gauntlet down with 300 horsepower in 1998 and it's been a race ever since, though lexus has dropped out. When the 3gs debuted, bmw and mercedes dropped 500hp m5s and e55/63s. 4gs is here, and the germans are pushing 600hp now. I legitimately worry that lexus is being left so far behind that they may not be able to catch up.
Some will raise the point that lexus is playing a different game and investing in hybrids - this is true - but gs450h makes up, what, 5% of gs sales? Not one lick of advertising, either. We have no is 300h here. Rxh is a solid core and es 300h is great as well, but lexus entire core product portfolio - is, es, gs, rx - is concentrated between 200 and 306hp. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Gs needs additional differentiation away from the es and the best way to do it, imo, would be a further upgraded v6, a higher power option, be it v8 or v6t, and a gs f.
It's quite obvious that when the german's want to do something, they put their mind to it and make it happen almost immediately. New engines debuting left and right, new variants, new models, refreshes, redesigns, new technology, 7 and 8ats across the line, etc. I'm not even talking about high dollar sports cars, vehicle customization programs or high performance models - this is just their core, ranging from entry level to full size. Cadillac has now joined the big boys and is playing to win with plenty of $$ backing from gm. For the life of me, with all of toyota's financial resources, i can not understand why we don't have a larger, faster, more comprehensive, more defined lexus brand.
I don't mean for this post to downplay any of lexus recent success - design is improving, driving dynamics are best in class and we do have some exciting new models coming down the line. However, lexus seems to be taking two steps forward and one step back...all while it's competitors are confidently blazing ahead with no reservations. It's a little discouraging.
That's the crazy thing. Lexus has employed the GR & UR engines (very good engines) for a decade and almost a decade for the UR. But they're making the exact same HP as a decade ago when they debuted.
The 2GR-FSE should be making at least 320HP at this point, while the 4.6L V8 should have reached the 400 HP mark.
306HP is a 2005 rating LOL for the IS350 and it's still rated the same 306HP in the 3IS
A joke really.
If you think that's bad then you should see where Toyota is at with their diesel motors lol
Their lovely 3.0L D-4D is making 127Kw and 410Nm
That's literally an insult to the market and says Toyota simply couldn't care less about you.
Just for reference BMW is making 280Kw & a whopping 780Nm from their 3.0L diesel!!!
Hyundai manages to make 450Nm & 148kW from their small 2.2R diesel and it's extremely refined power plant.
Power is not the issue with Toyota D-4D but the way it sounds is very agricultural
Last edited by yowps3; 11-16-13 at 01:29 AM.