SW17LS

3 inches of ground clearance doesn't help when driving in the snow? LOL...okay...

Here's the challenge...you have three things that snow and ice effect when driving, accelerating...stopping...and turning. AWD/4WD helps you with one of those things...accelerating. It does nothing for you when it comes to the other two. IMHO, the other two are more important. THATS why in a snowy climate I would rather be on winter tires in a RWD than on all season tires in an AWD. Obviously, AWD on winter tires would be the best. Winter tires are really important.

C&D did this test years ago exactly how I described, they took RWD/FWD vehicles and their AWD counterparts to even the playing field, put all seasons on the AWD models and winter tires on the RWD versions (well they had a FWD Audi as well as RWD Benzes).

The result? Exactly as I said...the AWD car accelerated better on level ground and climbed grades better. Thats all, the 2WD cars on winter tires trounced the AWD cars when it came to braking, skidpad roadholding, slalom and handling runs.

Read it for yourself:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...price-traction

Whens the last time you heard of someone dying because they couldn't get going up a hill? I don't recall a time. You hear about people dying when they loose control of a car underway, and this test supports what I and others have said...winter tires are more important to overall handling of a car in the snow than RWD vs FWD vs AWD.

My other question for you is when is the last time you drove a RWD with winter tires in the snow? Winter tire tech has come a LONG way over the years.

bagwell

funny you argue so hard for RWD when you own AWD

Sulu

It has been said -- and it bears repeating here -- that 4WD/AWD just gets you deeper in the ditch than you would in a 2WD vehicle. The perception -- marketing! -- is that 4WD/AWD provides you with unlimited traction in all conditions and all situations, giving the driver the belief that he can tackle any and all road conditions. What is NOT said is that 4WD/AWD vehicles are no better (and perhaps are even worse) than their equivalent 2WD vehicle when it comes to braking; the extra bite provided by a good set of winter tires will give you extra traction AND better braking (which 4WD/AWD does not).

Not that long ago (not much more than a generation ago), before the Camry and Accord, before the Civic and other FWD cars were that popular, and before all-season tires, we here in Canada drove around in RWD American cars on summer tires. In the winter, we put snow tires on the back (no 4-wheel snow tires as are recommended now); and if we were worried, put bag(s) of sand or salt in the back to add extra weight over the drive wheels. No one regularly drove around in 4x4 pickup trucks and 4WD/AWD SUVs were unheard of. We had no concerns and drove around just fine.

Even today, most people get by in the winter here in FWD cars, even without winter tires, relying year-round on all-season tires. Drivers who know their cars can sense that the roads are slippery and then compensate for it by slowing down and allowing for greater braking distances (even in my Corolla which has terribly over-boosted electric power steering, I can easily feel the difference between a normal, dry road and a snow-dusted, slippery one). Determining when ABS cuts in helps also: tap your brakes and if ABS cuts in much sooner than normal, you know that the road surface is slippery.

When my wife was car-shopping last year and considering the Honda CR-V, her brother and sisters all insisted that she should get the AWD option -- it is a big vehicle, after all, and the CR-V needs AWD to drive it around, making it safer. I said no, especially if she was concerned about saving on fuel. Yet, when she decided on the Accord instead (more car for less money), there were no demands about getting AWD in the bigger Accord. So many, many people have these wrong perceptions about AWD.

mmarshall

I didn't say clearance didn't help...it obviously does. But there are other factors as well. I've seen low-clearance Imprezas go through stuff almost as deep as what higher-clearance Outbacks can manage.


That's true. But what gets most people in trouble in the winter is not necessarily sliding off the road, but simply stuck in snow where you can't get moving. That is where AWD shines.

Again, depends on what vehicle you have. My 2006 Outback was superb on any slippery surface, even on all seasons without snow tires.


I read that article when it first came out. C&D has their experiences....I have mine.


That's because a lot of people who know that they will regularly (or possibly) face tough conditions in the winter (like steep hills) often get AWD or 4WD vehicles that can handle it if needed. They don't leave themselves open to getting stuck with a RWD or FWD car.


I had an IS300 up to 2006. It was a handful on slippery surfaces, no matter what kind of rubber was on it, or how you used its electronic traction-aids.

S2000toIS350

I would point out that the comparison has 2 variables (snow tires, yes or no and Drive, RWD or AWD).

The dropped out of union teacher high school gomer who designed the experiment would not cut it in the pharma industry.

The useful comparison is the AWD car with and without snow tires.

SW17LS

I own AWD because I had no choice, You have to special order RWD in my region. I would have chosen RWD had I had the option.

Nothing wrong with AWD, AWD is great its just not the only option for people as some would have us believe.

Its a matter of physics. All season tires have rubber compounds that get progressively harder and less grippy as it gets below 45 degrees. So, here for instance they're mostly fine...because we spend a lot of our winters over 45. If you're in say..Buffalo...or Montreal...its a different story. No matter how great your AWD Outback might be, its just as helpless on grip less frozen tires in the snow and ice when making a turn as a RWD car, FWD car, whatever.

Its not a question of opinion, its a matter of fact. Physics aren't up for debate.

Unless you conducted a test at the scale on grades and slaloms and skid pads as they did using the same models with and without AWD and with and without winter tires...your experiences are not at all comparable. The testing methodology and the results here are clear. You can choose to believe what you want, but it doesn't make it true.

I've driven RWD cars in colder climates on snow tires and they were just fine. Look in the LS forum, older GS forums, all kinds of RWD Lexus owners use winter tires and are fine in cold climates. Ask Kansas how his RWD LSs are on winter tires...he's been driving them for 23 years and says they're great.

A lot of it is driving skill too. I've driven the RWD LS many times in the snow without winter tires. Its a handful, but drivable. People have been getting around in the snow without AWD for many, many years. It certainly helps, but its not as important as proper tires and its not a requirement.

Thats not the question they were looking to answer. The answer there is one we already know, AWD vehicles on winter tires will be superior to everything. The question is whether AWD is more effective without winter tires than RWD with winter tires.

Nobody is debating that the ideal setup would be AWD with winter tires for snow and ice driving. My point is that someone with a RWD or FWD car with winter tires is going to be better off than someone with AWD and all seasons (or no seasons as a lot of professional drivers call them) if you're driving in the winter in an area where you have snow and low temps.

Infra

iTrader: (1)

The RS5 trounces the M3 on the track. Journalists choose the M3 not for capability but for feeling. No one, I think, is arguing that AWD feels better. But RWD can't compete for pure speed, even against a heavier AWD car.

tex2670

I noticed that bulge on my test drive, and had a bit of a concern--and I haven't noticed it since. Maybe someone with shorter legs might find it intrusive, but I've had my IS 6.5 years, and it's not an issue at all.

SW17LS

Mine has the bulge obviously, doesn't bother me at all. I thought it would, but I never even think about it now.

tex2670

I'm going to guess, in Canada, most people have a vast amount of winter driving experience in very snowy conditions. I would say that is not the case in most of the US. I grew up in New England, and I learned to drive in the snow in my RWD Chevy Malibu wagon. Now, here in the Philadelphia area, the vast majority of people are horribly afraid of snow events.

The fact of the matter is that, once you get out of the snow belt, far too many people just don't know how to drive in the snow. I would tend to agree that some of those people get a false sense of confidence with AWD, but those people would still have the same horrible driving habits if they had snow tires instead of/in addition to AWD. I've seen it just in the past week--people driving around in swirling snow with no headlights, going too fast, too slow, tailgating, passing on the shoulder, etc, etc.

SW17LS

You should see it down in DC!

LexFather

Odd b/c the cars with the records at the Ring are RWD…hell the low on power 552hp LFA had the record and it was RWD with street tires.

AWD help makes things idiot proof.

And this article should be ten reasons why its a bad article.

mmarshall

True, but I also know what kind of physics my Outback and its tires had. That, my friend, is also not up for debate either.

Infra

iTrader: (1)

Well, the ring has so many high speed sections that engine power is as important as handling/traction. So RWD, in many case, probably has an advantage aside from the advanced torque vectoring AWD systems such as you see in the GT-R, RS5, etc., which can help significantly in high-speed sweeping turns; of which the Nurburgring has many.

I have no idea how accurate these numbers are, but you see the RS5 ahead of the E92 M3 by several seconds.

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

Of course, 8 minutes is a LONG time in which to make a mistake, so I would take any result from the 'ring with a LOT of salt.

SW17LS

LOL. Physics are physics. Your Outback and its tires had no "different physics" than any other car.

What you just said is akin to me saying gravity has less force on me than on you. Its absurd. Your Outback was great getting going from a stop. Stopping or turning, no better than any other car.