Ten Reasons Why Your Next Lexus Should Have All-Wheel Drive
#91
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3 inches of ground clearance doesn't help when driving in the snow? LOL...okay...![Uhh...](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/1387914497.gif)
Here's the challenge...you have three things that snow and ice effect when driving, accelerating...stopping...and turning. AWD/4WD helps you with one of those things...accelerating. It does nothing for you when it comes to the other two. IMHO, the other two are more important. THATS why in a snowy climate I would rather be on winter tires in a RWD than on all season tires in an AWD. Obviously, AWD on winter tires would be the best. Winter tires are really important.
C&D did this test years ago exactly how I described, they took RWD/FWD vehicles and their AWD counterparts to even the playing field, put all seasons on the AWD models and winter tires on the RWD versions (well they had a FWD Audi as well as RWD Benzes).
The result? Exactly as I said...the AWD car accelerated better on level ground and climbed grades better. Thats all, the 2WD cars on winter tires trounced the AWD cars when it came to braking, skidpad roadholding, slalom and handling runs.
Read it for yourself:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...price-traction
Whens the last time you heard of someone dying because they couldn't get going up a hill? I don't recall a time. You hear about people dying when they loose control of a car underway, and this test supports what I and others have said...winter tires are more important to overall handling of a car in the snow than RWD vs FWD vs AWD.
My other question for you is when is the last time you drove a RWD with winter tires in the snow? Winter tire tech has come a LONG way over the years.
![Uhh...](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/1387914497.gif)
On a relatively low-clearance AWD car (Lexus IS, BMW 3-series, Toyota Matrix, etc.....) with low profile, summer-only, dry-pavement performance tires, I might (?) agree with you....there are better AWD combinations for winter traction. But, with most other AWD set-ups, you'd probably lose the bet.
C&D did this test years ago exactly how I described, they took RWD/FWD vehicles and their AWD counterparts to even the playing field, put all seasons on the AWD models and winter tires on the RWD versions (well they had a FWD Audi as well as RWD Benzes).
The result? Exactly as I said...the AWD car accelerated better on level ground and climbed grades better. Thats all, the 2WD cars on winter tires trounced the AWD cars when it came to braking, skidpad roadholding, slalom and handling runs.
Read it for yourself:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...price-traction
So What's the Bottom Line?
Four-wheel drive helps get cars going. When it comes time to brake or change direction on low-traction surfaces, the extra mass of the driveline becomes more of a detriment. Folks who live in hilly places that get snow may need the climbing capability of four-wheel drive. If it snows a lot in those hilly places, they should probably invest in winter tires, too. Even flat-landers who happen to have steep driveways may wish to consider a four-wheel-driver.
Almost everyone else will most likely be better served by using winter tires. Acceleration takes longer, but in an emergency, the handling behavior and improved lateral grip of two-wheel drive and winter tires -- in the slippery stuff -- are the safer bets.
Four-wheel drive helps get cars going. When it comes time to brake or change direction on low-traction surfaces, the extra mass of the driveline becomes more of a detriment. Folks who live in hilly places that get snow may need the climbing capability of four-wheel drive. If it snows a lot in those hilly places, they should probably invest in winter tires, too. Even flat-landers who happen to have steep driveways may wish to consider a four-wheel-driver.
Almost everyone else will most likely be better served by using winter tires. Acceleration takes longer, but in an emergency, the handling behavior and improved lateral grip of two-wheel drive and winter tires -- in the slippery stuff -- are the safer bets.
My other question for you is when is the last time you drove a RWD with winter tires in the snow? Winter tire tech has come a LONG way over the years.
Last edited by SW17LS; 12-15-13 at 08:59 PM.
#92
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3 inches of ground clearance doesn't help when driving in the snow? LOL...okay...![Uhh...](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/1387914497.gif)
Here's the challenge...you have three things that snow and ice effect when driving, accelerating...stopping...and turning. AWD/4WD helps you with one of those things...accelerating. It does nothing for you when it comes to the other two. IMHO, the other two are more important. THATS why in a snowy climate I would rather be on winter tires in a RWD than on all season tires in an AWD. Obviously, AWD on winter tires would be the best. Winter tires are really important.
C&D did this test years ago exactly how I described, they took RWD/FWD vehicles and their AWD counterparts to even the playing field, put all seasons on the AWD models and winter tires on the RWD versions (well they had a FWD Audi as well as RWD Benzes).
The result? Exactly as I said...the AWD car accelerated better on level ground and climbed grades better. Thats all, the 2WD cars on winter tires trounced the AWD cars when it came to braking, skidpad roadholding, slalom and handling runs.
Read it for yourself:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...price-traction
Whens the last time you heard of someone dying because they couldn't get going up a hill? I don't recall a time. You hear about people dying when they loose control of a car underway, and this test supports what I and others have said...winter tires are more important to overall handling of a car in the snow than RWD vs FWD vs AWD.
My other question for you is when is the last time you drove a RWD with winter tires in the snow? Winter tire tech has come a LONG way over the years.
![Uhh...](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/1387914497.gif)
Here's the challenge...you have three things that snow and ice effect when driving, accelerating...stopping...and turning. AWD/4WD helps you with one of those things...accelerating. It does nothing for you when it comes to the other two. IMHO, the other two are more important. THATS why in a snowy climate I would rather be on winter tires in a RWD than on all season tires in an AWD. Obviously, AWD on winter tires would be the best. Winter tires are really important.
C&D did this test years ago exactly how I described, they took RWD/FWD vehicles and their AWD counterparts to even the playing field, put all seasons on the AWD models and winter tires on the RWD versions (well they had a FWD Audi as well as RWD Benzes).
The result? Exactly as I said...the AWD car accelerated better on level ground and climbed grades better. Thats all, the 2WD cars on winter tires trounced the AWD cars when it came to braking, skidpad roadholding, slalom and handling runs.
Read it for yourself:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...price-traction
Whens the last time you heard of someone dying because they couldn't get going up a hill? I don't recall a time. You hear about people dying when they loose control of a car underway, and this test supports what I and others have said...winter tires are more important to overall handling of a car in the snow than RWD vs FWD vs AWD.
My other question for you is when is the last time you drove a RWD with winter tires in the snow? Winter tire tech has come a LONG way over the years.
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#93
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It has been said -- and it bears repeating here -- that 4WD/AWD just gets you deeper in the ditch than you would in a 2WD vehicle. The perception -- marketing! -- is that 4WD/AWD provides you with unlimited traction in all conditions and all situations, giving the driver the belief that he can tackle any and all road conditions. What is NOT said is that 4WD/AWD vehicles are no better (and perhaps are even worse) than their equivalent 2WD vehicle when it comes to braking; the extra bite provided by a good set of winter tires will give you extra traction AND better braking (which 4WD/AWD does not).
Not that long ago (not much more than a generation ago), before the Camry and Accord, before the Civic and other FWD cars were that popular, and before all-season tires, we here in Canada drove around in RWD American cars on summer tires. In the winter, we put snow tires on the back (no 4-wheel snow tires as are recommended now); and if we were worried, put bag(s) of sand or salt in the back to add extra weight over the drive wheels. No one regularly drove around in 4x4 pickup trucks and 4WD/AWD SUVs were unheard of. We had no concerns and drove around just fine.
Even today, most people get by in the winter here in FWD cars, even without winter tires, relying year-round on all-season tires. Drivers who know their cars can sense that the roads are slippery and then compensate for it by slowing down and allowing for greater braking distances (even in my Corolla which has terribly over-boosted electric power steering, I can easily feel the difference between a normal, dry road and a snow-dusted, slippery one). Determining when ABS cuts in helps also: tap your brakes and if ABS cuts in much sooner than normal, you know that the road surface is slippery.
When my wife was car-shopping last year and considering the Honda CR-V, her brother and sisters all insisted that she should get the AWD option -- it is a big vehicle, after all, and the CR-V needs AWD to drive it around, making it safer. I said no, especially if she was concerned about saving on fuel. Yet, when she decided on the Accord instead (more car for less money), there were no demands about getting AWD in the bigger Accord. So many, many people have these wrong perceptions about AWD.
Not that long ago (not much more than a generation ago), before the Camry and Accord, before the Civic and other FWD cars were that popular, and before all-season tires, we here in Canada drove around in RWD American cars on summer tires. In the winter, we put snow tires on the back (no 4-wheel snow tires as are recommended now); and if we were worried, put bag(s) of sand or salt in the back to add extra weight over the drive wheels. No one regularly drove around in 4x4 pickup trucks and 4WD/AWD SUVs were unheard of. We had no concerns and drove around just fine.
Even today, most people get by in the winter here in FWD cars, even without winter tires, relying year-round on all-season tires. Drivers who know their cars can sense that the roads are slippery and then compensate for it by slowing down and allowing for greater braking distances (even in my Corolla which has terribly over-boosted electric power steering, I can easily feel the difference between a normal, dry road and a snow-dusted, slippery one). Determining when ABS cuts in helps also: tap your brakes and if ABS cuts in much sooner than normal, you know that the road surface is slippery.
When my wife was car-shopping last year and considering the Honda CR-V, her brother and sisters all insisted that she should get the AWD option -- it is a big vehicle, after all, and the CR-V needs AWD to drive it around, making it safer. I said no, especially if she was concerned about saving on fuel. Yet, when she decided on the Accord instead (more car for less money), there were no demands about getting AWD in the bigger Accord. So many, many people have these wrong perceptions about AWD.
#94
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Here's the challenge...you have three things that snow and ice effect when driving, accelerating...stopping...and turning. AWD/4WD helps you with one of those things...accelerating. It does nothing for you when it comes to the other two.
Obviously, AWD on winter tires would be the best. Winter tires are really important.
I read that article when it first came out. C&D has their experiences....I have mine.
Whens the last time you heard of someone dying because they couldn't get going up a hill? I don't recall a time.
My other question for you is when is the last time you drove a RWD with winter tires in the snow? Winter tire tech has come a LONG way over the years.
Last edited by mmarshall; 12-16-13 at 10:38 AM.
#95
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I would point out that the comparison has 2 variables (snow tires, yes or no and Drive, RWD or AWD).
The dropped out of union teacher high school gomer who designed the experiment would not cut it in the pharma industry.
The useful comparison is the AWD car with and without snow tires.
The dropped out of union teacher high school gomer who designed the experiment would not cut it in the pharma industry.
The useful comparison is the AWD car with and without snow tires.
#96
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I own AWD because I had no choice, You have to special order RWD in my region. I would have chosen RWD had I had the option.
Nothing wrong with AWD, AWD is great its just not the only option for people as some would have us believe.
Its a matter of physics. All season tires have rubber compounds that get progressively harder and less grippy as it gets below 45 degrees. So, here for instance they're mostly fine...because we spend a lot of our winters over 45. If you're in say..Buffalo...or Montreal...its a different story. No matter how great your AWD Outback might be, its just as helpless on grip less frozen tires in the snow and ice when making a turn as a RWD car, FWD car, whatever.
Its not a question of opinion, its a matter of fact. Physics aren't up for debate.
Unless you conducted a test at the scale on grades and slaloms and skid pads as they did using the same models with and without AWD and with and without winter tires...your experiences are not at all comparable. The testing methodology and the results here are clear. You can choose to believe what you want, but it doesn't make it true.
I've driven RWD cars in colder climates on snow tires and they were just fine. Look in the LS forum, older GS forums, all kinds of RWD Lexus owners use winter tires and are fine in cold climates. Ask Kansas how his RWD LSs are on winter tires...he's been driving them for 23 years and says they're great.
A lot of it is driving skill too. I've driven the RWD LS many times in the snow without winter tires. Its a handful, but drivable. People have been getting around in the snow without AWD for many, many years. It certainly helps, but its not as important as proper tires and its not a requirement.
Thats not the question they were looking to answer. The answer there is one we already know, AWD vehicles on winter tires will be superior to everything. The question is whether AWD is more effective without winter tires than RWD with winter tires.
Nobody is debating that the ideal setup would be AWD with winter tires for snow and ice driving. My point is that someone with a RWD or FWD car with winter tires is going to be better off than someone with AWD and all seasons (or no seasons as a lot of professional drivers call them) if you're driving in the winter in an area where you have snow and low temps.
Nothing wrong with AWD, AWD is great its just not the only option for people as some would have us believe.
Originally Posted by mmarshall
Again, depends on what vehicle you have. My 2006 Outback was superb on any slippery surface, even on all seasons without snow tires.
Its not a question of opinion, its a matter of fact. Physics aren't up for debate.
I read that article when it first came out. C&D has their experiences....I have mine.
I had an IS300 up to 2006. It was a handful on slippery surfaces, no matter what kind of rubber was on it, or how you used its electronic traction-aids.
A lot of it is driving skill too. I've driven the RWD LS many times in the snow without winter tires. Its a handful, but drivable. People have been getting around in the snow without AWD for many, many years. It certainly helps, but its not as important as proper tires and its not a requirement.
Thats not the question they were looking to answer. The answer there is one we already know, AWD vehicles on winter tires will be superior to everything. The question is whether AWD is more effective without winter tires than RWD with winter tires.
Nobody is debating that the ideal setup would be AWD with winter tires for snow and ice driving. My point is that someone with a RWD or FWD car with winter tires is going to be better off than someone with AWD and all seasons (or no seasons as a lot of professional drivers call them) if you're driving in the winter in an area where you have snow and low temps.
Last edited by SW17LS; 12-16-13 at 12:54 PM.
#97
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That is completely incorrect. The only AWD system that can be pushed beyond RWD is an advanced torque vectoring system with front to rear and side to side vectoring. Systems like this are still pretty rare, and many of them still do not have full vectoring. And even then you have to negate the added weight and higher center of gravity.
There's a very good reason why Audis with all their AWD gimmickry consistently get their *** handed to them by RWD BMWs on track. There's a good reason why cars like M5, M3, IS-F do not come with AWD. It is very likely that they will adopt AWD systems in the near future, but it's going to be a very advanced torque vectoring system.
Once again, traditional AWD systems are good for bad weather driving, rally track type driving, even slight offroading - but they utterly suck on dry pavement. And in case of Lexus sedans, the AWD system is most likely to be the most basic one, with open diffs assisted by e-LSD, and its only useful for getting you going in snowy conditions, but not well suited for spirited driving. This is true not just for Lexus, but for many other manufacturers as well.
There's a very good reason why Audis with all their AWD gimmickry consistently get their *** handed to them by RWD BMWs on track. There's a good reason why cars like M5, M3, IS-F do not come with AWD. It is very likely that they will adopt AWD systems in the near future, but it's going to be a very advanced torque vectoring system.
Once again, traditional AWD systems are good for bad weather driving, rally track type driving, even slight offroading - but they utterly suck on dry pavement. And in case of Lexus sedans, the AWD system is most likely to be the most basic one, with open diffs assisted by e-LSD, and its only useful for getting you going in snowy conditions, but not well suited for spirited driving. This is true not just for Lexus, but for many other manufacturers as well.
Last edited by Infra; 12-16-13 at 02:15 PM.
#98
Lexus Champion
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I noticed that bulge on my test drive, and had a bit of a concern--and I haven't noticed it since. Maybe someone with shorter legs might find it intrusive, but I've had my IS 6.5 years, and it's not an issue at all.
#99
Lexus Fanatic
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Mine has the bulge obviously, doesn't bother me at all. I thought it would, but I never even think about it now.
#100
Lexus Champion
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It has been said -- and it bears repeating here -- that 4WD/AWD just gets you deeper in the ditch than you would in a 2WD vehicle. The perception -- marketing! -- is that 4WD/AWD provides you with unlimited traction in all conditions and all situations, giving the driver the belief that he can tackle any and all road conditions. What is NOT said is that 4WD/AWD vehicles are no better (and perhaps are even worse) than their equivalent 2WD vehicle when it comes to braking; the extra bite provided by a good set of winter tires will give you extra traction AND better braking (which 4WD/AWD does not).
Not that long ago (not much more than a generation ago), before the Camry and Accord, before the Civic and other FWD cars were that popular, and before all-season tires, we here in Canada drove around in RWD American cars on summer tires. In the winter, we put snow tires on the back (no 4-wheel snow tires as are recommended now); and if we were worried, put bag(s) of sand or salt in the back to add extra weight over the drive wheels. No one regularly drove around in 4x4 pickup trucks and 4WD/AWD SUVs were unheard of. We had no concerns and drove around just fine.
Even today, most people get by in the winter here in FWD cars, even without winter tires, relying year-round on all-season tires. Drivers who know their cars can sense that the roads are slippery and then compensate for it by slowing down and allowing for greater braking distances (even in my Corolla which has terribly over-boosted electric power steering, I can easily feel the difference between a normal, dry road and a snow-dusted, slippery one). Determining when ABS cuts in helps also: tap your brakes and if ABS cuts in much sooner than normal, you know that the road surface is slippery.
When my wife was car-shopping last year and considering the Honda CR-V, her brother and sisters all insisted that she should get the AWD option -- it is a big vehicle, after all, and the CR-V needs AWD to drive it around, making it safer. I said no, especially if she was concerned about saving on fuel. Yet, when she decided on the Accord instead (more car for less money), there were no demands about getting AWD in the bigger Accord. So many, many people have these wrong perceptions about AWD.
Not that long ago (not much more than a generation ago), before the Camry and Accord, before the Civic and other FWD cars were that popular, and before all-season tires, we here in Canada drove around in RWD American cars on summer tires. In the winter, we put snow tires on the back (no 4-wheel snow tires as are recommended now); and if we were worried, put bag(s) of sand or salt in the back to add extra weight over the drive wheels. No one regularly drove around in 4x4 pickup trucks and 4WD/AWD SUVs were unheard of. We had no concerns and drove around just fine.
Even today, most people get by in the winter here in FWD cars, even without winter tires, relying year-round on all-season tires. Drivers who know their cars can sense that the roads are slippery and then compensate for it by slowing down and allowing for greater braking distances (even in my Corolla which has terribly over-boosted electric power steering, I can easily feel the difference between a normal, dry road and a snow-dusted, slippery one). Determining when ABS cuts in helps also: tap your brakes and if ABS cuts in much sooner than normal, you know that the road surface is slippery.
When my wife was car-shopping last year and considering the Honda CR-V, her brother and sisters all insisted that she should get the AWD option -- it is a big vehicle, after all, and the CR-V needs AWD to drive it around, making it safer. I said no, especially if she was concerned about saving on fuel. Yet, when she decided on the Accord instead (more car for less money), there were no demands about getting AWD in the bigger Accord. So many, many people have these wrong perceptions about AWD.
The fact of the matter is that, once you get out of the snow belt, far too many people just don't know how to drive in the snow. I would tend to agree that some of those people get a false sense of confidence with AWD, but those people would still have the same horrible driving habits if they had snow tires instead of/in addition to AWD. I've seen it just in the past week--people driving around in swirling snow with no headlights, going too fast, too slow, tailgating, passing on the shoulder, etc, etc.
#101
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#102
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AWD help makes things idiot proof.
And this article should be ten reasons why its a bad article.
#103
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#104
Lexus Test Driver
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I have no idea how accurate these numbers are, but you see the RS5 ahead of the E92 M3 by several seconds.
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html
Of course, 8 minutes is a LONG time in which to make a mistake, so I would take any result from the 'ring with a LOT of salt.
#105
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What you just said is akin to me saying gravity has less force on me than on you. Its absurd. Your Outback was great getting going from a stop. Stopping or turning, no better than any other car.