SteVTEC

That's exactly what I'm saying.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

(emphasis added) excellent post.

SW17LS

Aw shucks guys, t'werent nuthin

mmarshall

I have to at least partly disagree. Sedate family sedans actually DEFINE this class. That is why Honda has never done a sport-sedan version of the Accord, and why even the (mildly-sporting) Camry SE has never sold in the huge numbers that the non-sporting Camry models do.


+10 QFT

SW17LS

Uh...they have a Sport version right now:



They also have for many years had a very sporty coupe.



We're not only talking about "sportiness" we're talking about styling, features & quality. As we've discussed before, times and desires change. There is a market for a more interesting, better built more dynamic family sedan obviously.

mmarshall

Interesting point, but is it a true sport-sedan? That's somewhat arguable.

Here (from the web-site) is what differentiates the Sport (sedan) model from the LX. Looks to me like mostly cosmetic stuff, except maybe for the larger wheels.

Sport

Adding to or replacing features on the LX •189-hp (SAE Net), 2.4-Liter, 16-Valve, DOHC i-VTEC® 4-Cylinder Engine with Direct Injection
•Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT) with Paddle Shifters (available)
•18-Inch Alloy Wheels
•Leather-Wrapped Steering Wheel
•Driver's Seat with 10-Way Power Adjustment, Including Power Lumbar Support
•Body-Colored Decklid Spoiler
•Fog Lights
•Chrome Exhaust Finishers

SW17LS

Admit it...you were wrong that Honda never offered a sport version of the Accord. This is exactly the same as the Camry's SE model. None of these cars are "true sport sedans"...they are FWD family sedans...one may be sportier than the other...but none of them are proper sport sedans. Notice Honda doesn't just put out "Sport" models on all their cars, they aren't the type of carmaker that just throws things like that around. They chose to put one on the new Accord. Why? Because the idea of "sport" is more important to buyers in this class than it used to be.

At its core the Accord is much more satisfying to drive than the Camry to start out with...obviously both Honda and Toyota see the shift in the market towards a more dynamic driving experience. The Accord has gained ground on the Camry which is in the midst of a long term attrition in market share when it is the more interesting, firmer, sportier more dynamic driving car. Thats the market speaking.

Again...Akio Toyoda agrees with us...and the proof is in the Corolla...the Rav 4...even the Highlander.

Wanna see what I would buy in this range? This:



Sales of the Mazda 6 are up HUGE. 200%. Small fraction of Camry sales...but much smaller dealer network...intrenched segment.. it shows the market for a car like this. Not saying the Camry needs to be a Mazda 3...but making the ol Camry a little better built, more stylish, and more dynamic might just keep someone's eye from wandering.

LexFather

Again, no one said the Camry doesn't need improving or is even best in class. We get it, Toyota clearly gets it. What is utterly RIDICULOUS are people beating up the Camry like its the worst car on worth and in some cases the vocal people drive a damn Camry equivalent or worse. So why beat up the Camry then live with one? That I don't get at all. Sorry it does not compute. In every thread here, Camry sucks blah blah blah….There are Camry owners here and imagine reading the Camry hate on a Lexus forum over and over and over. Trust, they get it enough everywhere else.

And again it seems a lot of the positives posted about other brands are about STYLING. I posted the Altima got voted some terrible car and no one said a thing. Hyundai/Kia have stylish cars and lie about MPG and no one barely said a thing.

BTW, the Camry SE is one of the drivers cars of this group. Of course no one wants to say it or hear about it.

Contrarily I think guys over-react to criticizing the Camry. People on forums are not all enthusiasts, many just know how to login. The Camry has quite a few enthusiasts and if anyone visits Toyota-Nation they will see some great Camry's.

Someone sent me this pic just last week. He's not an enthusiast?

mmarshall

I did a full-review of an Accord EX coupe a few years ago. Though not a BMW, it was definitely more sporty than any Accord sedan I ever sampled, especially in the steering feel.




Well, if its a stiffer ride/handling that you want, I'll agree....both the latest-generation Accord and Camry are firmer and less-comfortable over bumps than their predecessors (that is true of many newer vehicles, period). But, overall the Accord does have a slight edge in handling, especially with the coupe.




If you like the Mazda6, you'd probably love the (roughly) same-size Buick Regal GS, though it admittedly is in a slightly higher price range. You can take it to the bank, however, that it is definitely NOT Grandpa's Buick.

BTW, at the D.C. auto show, the Mazda reps said that a turbo MazdaSpeed3 is probably in the works...but much less likely for the 6.

SW17LS

I mean...I read the thread and I just don't see that. I look through the thread and I see criticisms...but I don't see flaming or "beating up" on the Camry.

To be fair...it is a Lexus forum not a Camry forum. I don't really see why you'd expect people here to be more on board with the Camry than people on another forums for other brands. I'm a Lexus enthusiast, but I'm not really a Toyota guy. They just don't sell many models that appeal to me...the Camry is certainly one of them.

... my cousin had a Camry SE...granted it was the previous generation...but to say a Camry SE out handles a Nissan Maxima...or a Mazda 6...I think is a little far fetched. It would not even be a comparison for me...especially since it can't be had in the V6.

I can appreciate the work that went into his car, and the enthusiasm he sees for the car...but I don't understand it myself. The car just doesn't appeal to me at all. A new Mazda 6...a Nissan Maxima...the new Accord...I look at those cars and I can say "If I couldn't afford what I have, I could buy one of those and be happy"...I just don't feel that way about the Camry I'm sorry.

I do like the Regal GS, but not as much as the Mazda 6. I was surprised by how much I really liked that Mazda 6.

I'd certainly buy a Regal GS over a Camry also.

spwolf

I like Mazda6 a lot better than Camry, but Camry will never be anything like Mazda6, which sells simply terribly in the USA.

Mazda overall is doing pretty bad in the USA right now, despite new models that are rated really well. This literally means that most people dont care about what enthusiasts and car magazines want from their cars.

GoHuskers

Lots of you talked about "Beauty and Taste" which is subjective. I owned a Camry SE and I liked it. It's affordable, reliable and somewhat nice looking (subjective). I think Toyota said that they will "improve" the Camry in '15 then that is great news. Making something good better is always welcome.

SW17LS

Doing poorly? Mazda retail sales are up 17%, best sales year since 2007, second best year since 1994. Mazda 6 sales are up 30% over the previous year...CX5 sales are up considerably...they're doing quite well.

Its not a zero sum game. Mazda is certainly a much smaller player than say Toyota...but that doesn't mean their sales are "simply terrible". 838 Mazda dealerships in the US and nearly 1,500 Toyota dealers.

Then I think somebody better tell the CEOs and product development people from every major automaker this pretty quick, because collectively everyone is on the wrong path then.

How many calls did you get today asking for your services as CEO of a major automaker?

Sulu

Exactly. There is a lot of talk about how the Honda Accord is sooo much better than the Camry -- beautiful looking, sporty drive, whatever. I don't get it. My wife has a 2013 Accord and I don't think that it is G*d's gift to mid-size sedans.

It is a BIIIGGG car, and looks it and feels it. I think the rear end looks FAT (I have found the past few Accord models to suffer from Big Butt syndrome). You sit very low in the car and the instrument panel sits VERY high, so much so that the steering wheel sits much too high, making for a VERY uncomfortable drive. The car drives like a large, heavy car also. I would not rate it a nimble, sporty drive. It is a nice drive on the highway but it is NOT a nimble, sporty car.

SteVTEC

a) You didn't answer the very simple yes or no question that I posed to you.
b) Mazda 6's are everywhere around where I live. Sells terribly? I think not.