environmentalists/politicians have ruined cars and aren't finished yet...
05-11-14, 11:21 PM
#32
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companies come and go of course, but only govt wields monopoly power, often recklessly, and always with no idea of the unintended consequences.
coming soon, greater govt surveillance, tracking, and taxation of all automotive activity. think traffic cameras are bad? wait until you get a fine in the middle of nowhere.
but i look forward to a day soon though where cars drive themselves, and most of us are just passengers and there's no need to own one at all. the bureaucrats will have their controlled world, and people who still need to ride in cars won't care. some will still 'drive', if they can afford to or care to.
Last edited by bitkahuna; 05-11-14 at 11:24 PM.
05-11-14, 11:44 PM
#33
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This is such a short-sighted and narrowly-focused rant. Americans have been caught with their pants down several times now over the past 30 years when gas prices sharply spiked, and finally something has been down to curb the extreme disregard for fuel consumption. We have had a gas guzzler tax since 1978, and yet I hear absolutely no one complain about it... why? Because V8s have always been an upgrade from base engine, which means the tax was really a luxury tax, not a tax on fuel consumption, and therefore was wholly ineffective.
Does the federal government not exist to set fiscal policy, and secure liberty for its citizens? If so, then setting an energy policy to reduce the nations dependence on oil is well within scope. If affects not just the decisions consumers make in buying cars, but also the decisions cities make when building infrastructure. The repercussions of bad policy last for decades.
All you need to know about V8s you can learn from the GS430 vs GS350. Roughly same power, roughly same torque and nearly identical "pickup" or 0-60 or however you want to measure it. Here's the official side-by-side of their dynos
Who in there right mind thinks the V8 is better here? Now, of course it's older technology, and the 1UR is much improved, but let's not pretend that what is being mourned in this thread is newer V8s, but V8s like the 3UZ. We could talk about BMW's 4.0L V8, or the Mustangs 4.6L V8, or any number that are simply at par with modern V6s. This simple fact means that the death of the V8 being agonized over here is simply irrelevant! We have a replacement that performs better in every way.
What we really have here is an emotional argument about the nostalgia of feeling and hearing the V8 rumble wrapped up in a red herring of a post supported by zero facts about environmentalists ruining our fun because... I don't know, environmentalists are dumb.
Does the federal government not exist to set fiscal policy, and secure liberty for its citizens? If so, then setting an energy policy to reduce the nations dependence on oil is well within scope. If affects not just the decisions consumers make in buying cars, but also the decisions cities make when building infrastructure. The repercussions of bad policy last for decades.
All you need to know about V8s you can learn from the GS430 vs GS350. Roughly same power, roughly same torque and nearly identical "pickup" or 0-60 or however you want to measure it. Here's the official side-by-side of their dynos
Who in there right mind thinks the V8 is better here? Now, of course it's older technology, and the 1UR is much improved, but let's not pretend that what is being mourned in this thread is newer V8s, but V8s like the 3UZ. We could talk about BMW's 4.0L V8, or the Mustangs 4.6L V8, or any number that are simply at par with modern V6s. This simple fact means that the death of the V8 being agonized over here is simply irrelevant! We have a replacement that performs better in every way.
What we really have here is an emotional argument about the nostalgia of feeling and hearing the V8 rumble wrapped up in a red herring of a post supported by zero facts about environmentalists ruining our fun because... I don't know, environmentalists are dumb.
Compare the 1UR-FSE to the 2GR-FSE
And yes I have the IS350 and while it is fast and silky smooth, it doesn't have that "push into seat" feeling that you get with V8 that have less power than my IS350 V6
05-12-14, 12:05 AM
#34
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I just did a quick search on Flagship V-8s..the numbers are quite astounding...
The lowest power is the LS
LS-4.6 V-8-386hp-19 MPG Overall
750-4.4 TT V-8-440hp-20 MPG Overall
S500-4.7 V-8-449hp-20 MPG Overall
S8-4.0 T V-8, 520hp, 19 MPG Overall (this is just insane)
You want perspective? When I joined here I had a GS 400 over a decade ago...
GS-4.0 V-8-300hp-18 MPG Overall
So today an Audi S8 makes 220 more hp in a larger vehicle and gets 1 MPG more.
To me that is progress, not a reason to complain.
A 2000 C5 Corvettes gets 18 MPG, a 2014 gets 20 MPG.
A 2000 C5 Corvette made 345hp, a 2014 makes 445hp.
Not sure what the issue is?
The lowest power is the LS
LS-4.6 V-8-386hp-19 MPG Overall
750-4.4 TT V-8-440hp-20 MPG Overall
S500-4.7 V-8-449hp-20 MPG Overall
S8-4.0 T V-8, 520hp, 19 MPG Overall (this is just insane)
You want perspective? When I joined here I had a GS 400 over a decade ago...
GS-4.0 V-8-300hp-18 MPG Overall
So today an Audi S8 makes 220 more hp in a larger vehicle and gets 1 MPG more.
To me that is progress, not a reason to complain.
A 2000 C5 Corvettes gets 18 MPG, a 2014 gets 20 MPG.
A 2000 C5 Corvette made 345hp, a 2014 makes 445hp.
Not sure what the issue is?
05-12-14, 12:25 AM
#35
how so? we almost ALWAYS have 'the best cars we've ever had'. sure in hindsight we'll see that a period was bad in one way or another, but competition spurs new heights continually. we can look at the u.s. 'big 3' in the 70s as having gone through a really rough patch with the 'oil crisis' then, but what happened? the japanese came forth with civics, corollas, etc. to show the way. 'detroit' then responded, haphazardly, and in some cases terribly, but progress marches ever forward. if there are new govt regulations, companies can go away or choose to comply, and make the best of it. that's what companies do. that doesn't mean those govt policies are good.
companies come and go of course, but only govt wields monopoly power, often recklessly, and always with no idea of the unintended consequences.
coming soon, greater govt surveillance, tracking, and taxation of all automotive activity. think traffic cameras are bad? wait until you get a fine in the middle of nowhere.
but i look forward to a day soon though where cars drive themselves, and most of us are just passengers and there's no need to own one at all. the bureaucrats will have their controlled world, and people who still need to ride in cars won't care. some will still 'drive', if they can afford to or care to.
companies come and go of course, but only govt wields monopoly power, often recklessly, and always with no idea of the unintended consequences.
coming soon, greater govt surveillance, tracking, and taxation of all automotive activity. think traffic cameras are bad? wait until you get a fine in the middle of nowhere.
but i look forward to a day soon though where cars drive themselves, and most of us are just passengers and there's no need to own one at all. the bureaucrats will have their controlled world, and people who still need to ride in cars won't care. some will still 'drive', if they can afford to or care to.
The way I interpreted the line I quoted from lexfather relates to overall improvements from the "bottom" up. For example Kia and Hyundai, I can still remember laughing at the Rio and Sephia (I was just out of high school). Now look at their products. Sure I would not buy one, but improved they have. I have read arguments on here about the Hyundai Equus and what it represents. Look on their website and it advertises "429 HP V8 engine-more than Lexus LS 460." Does that mean LS owners will consider it? Most definitely not, but they are pushng the envelope. I was agreeing with that fact that the whole industry has been elevated, particularly from the bottom up, and leaving the political implications at the door. Hell, GM and Ford can be lumped into it as well. I never would have considered a Ford product 5-10 years ago. Now we are on our second vehicle, loving it. Regarding Lexus, look at the future of the "F," speculation on this forum projects greatness. It's new territory for them. Many other "luxury" brands are adapting and putting out vehicles for the "masses" as well as their original clientele. I look at the Audi RS7, and I am stunned by the numbers (MPG in light of the performance).
I danced briefly in the debate forum on here. If you remember, I lean right and generally agree with conservative principles, but I love conversations with people that don't have the same views as me. I try to avoid politics on social media, it is more of face to face thing with me. It is near impossible to have a constructive debate with most people via the internet, in my opinion. PLus, it just takes too damn long. As far as what I bolded above, that is hardly supportable as it leads to abuses of power, etc. We have already seen this. Although I am from California, please don't get me twisted. Nothing is far fetched anymore in the apathetic times we live in. Along the lines of taxation, let's remove the property tax deduction, amend prop 13 (Ca specific), take away mortgage interest deductions...things that hit the pocket books hard....affecting car buying decisions. I almost forgot, no more deducting car tags either! Anyways, government intervention often fails when done on a larger scale. Just read the empirically inclined Thomas Sowell. Actually, youtube him.
The last bolded point is scary, because control is the goal. And I sense your sarcasm!
Last edited by GSthe4th; 05-12-14 at 02:30 AM.
05-12-14, 05:36 AM
#36
once CAFE really starts kicking in, it will put the screws on sportscars. That wheelbase mpg formula they have is really biased against sportscars. Remember the last time in the 70s when strict requirements were put on cars, two decades of lackluster cars. Get the sportscar you want soon, the older cars will be more desireable just like before.
05-12-14, 05:44 AM
#37
Lexus Champion
You and others can hate the government and whatever is in fashion currently all you want but the facts are;
1.Car Sales are up
2. MPG is up
3. Power is up
4. Emissions are down
5. Car Company Profits are up
6. Consumer happiness is up
7. Quality is up
8. We have more high horsepower cars than ever before
9. We have more exotics than ever before
10. THE CAR WORLD IS NOT ENDING
The government challenged the car industry and they have come ROARING back answering confidently. We now have EVs, hybrids, plug in hybrids along with V-8s, V-10s, V-12s many that also include forced induction.
1.Car Sales are up
2. MPG is up
3. Power is up
4. Emissions are down
5. Car Company Profits are up
6. Consumer happiness is up
7. Quality is up
8. We have more high horsepower cars than ever before
9. We have more exotics than ever before
10. THE CAR WORLD IS NOT ENDING
The government challenged the car industry and they have come ROARING back answering confidently. We now have EVs, hybrids, plug in hybrids along with V-8s, V-10s, V-12s many that also include forced induction.
05-12-14, 06:06 AM
#38
must be why the fact is that we're driving LESS and LESS.
http://usa.streetsblog.org/2014/02/2...riving-in-u-s/
must be why the fact is more and more millennials have decided they don't want a car at all, principally because they can't afford one or don't want to spend the exorbitant amount they cost.
http://usa.streetsblog.org/2014/02/2...riving-in-u-s/
must be why the fact is more and more millennials have decided they don't want a car at all, principally because they can't afford one or don't want to spend the exorbitant amount they cost.
05-12-14, 06:44 AM
#39
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
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of course.
understood, but my point of this thread was not to say there is no innovation in the auto industry. there is tons. a LOT of it now though is just to comply with very heavy handed regulations. the european stupid pedestrian bumper height has changed the look of all vehicles. in the u.s. we have an idiotic mish-mash of policies across states by do-gooders requiring refiners to create DOZENS of different formulations of gasoline, and it's getting worse now with e85 too. this is HUGELY inefficient and costly to everyone. it's just plain stupid.
agreed.
The way I interpreted the line I quoted from lexfather relates to overall improvements from the "bottom" up. ... I was agreeing with that fact that the whole industry has been elevated, particularly from the bottom up...
As far as what I bolded above, that is hardly supportable as it leads to abuses of power, etc.
... Anyways, government intervention often fails when done on a larger scale.
... Anyways, government intervention often fails when done on a larger scale.
05-12-14, 06:59 AM
#40
understood, but my point of this thread was not to say there is no innovation in the auto industry. there is tons. a LOT of it now though is just to comply with very heavy handed regulations. the european stupid pedestrian bumper height has changed the look of all vehicles. in the u.s. we have an idiotic mish-mash of policies across states by do-gooders requiring refiners to create DOZENS of different formulations of gasoline, and it's getting worse now with e85 too. this is HUGELY inefficient and costly to everyone. it's just plain stupid.
05-12-14, 07:01 AM
#41
Lexus Champion
of course.
understood, but my point of this thread was not to say there is no innovation in the auto industry. there is tons. a LOT of it now though is just to comply with very heavy handed regulations. the european stupid pedestrian bumper height has changed the look of all vehicles. in the u.s. we have an idiotic mish-mash of policies across states by do-gooders requiring refiners to create DOZENS of different formulations of gasoline, and it's getting worse now with e85 too. this is HUGELY inefficient and costly to everyone. it's just plain stupid.
agreed.
understood, but my point of this thread was not to say there is no innovation in the auto industry. there is tons. a LOT of it now though is just to comply with very heavy handed regulations. the european stupid pedestrian bumper height has changed the look of all vehicles. in the u.s. we have an idiotic mish-mash of policies across states by do-gooders requiring refiners to create DOZENS of different formulations of gasoline, and it's getting worse now with e85 too. this is HUGELY inefficient and costly to everyone. it's just plain stupid.
agreed.
05-12-14, 07:38 AM
#42
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Since the day I took a short testdrive ( that was enough ) with a Tesla S P85+ , I realized that there is no need for a regular petrol/diesel engine anymore in terms of having fun or outstanding performance . I drive the IS 300h today and I will never go back to have a non-hybrid car, Im just waiting for Lexus/BMW/ Merc to make" their own Tesla S" 
05-12-14, 08:18 AM
#43
Secondly, that "push into seat" feeling you are missing is all in your head. It's from a torque curve that peaks out halfway up the engine band. It's been eliminated by variable intake timing & phasing, as well as direct injection. And just like I already said: your argument, and the argument you are supporting here, is all based in nostalgia and not the real world.
05-12-14, 08:50 AM
#44
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very perceptive. 
are you going to buy one? of course the tesla is likely twice (or more) as expensive as your is300h so it should be good/better.
are you going to buy one? of course the tesla is likely twice (or more) as expensive as your is300h so it should be good/better.
05-12-14, 11:04 AM
#45
Lexus Champion
These eco-terrorists have also ruined F1.
From V12 to V10 to V8..........and now these lawnmower-sounding V6 turbo engine.
Seriously, these Greenpeace **************s deserve to be run over.............by a Range Rover Sport
From V12 to V10 to V8..........and now these lawnmower-sounding V6 turbo engine.
Seriously, these Greenpeace **************s deserve to be run over.............by a Range Rover Sport