environmentalists/politicians have ruined cars and aren't finished yet...
05-13-14, 09:17 AM
#61
Lexus Fanatic
Government is already part of the actual pricing structure.
Federal/state taxes (and sometimes local sales taxes) go a long way to help DETERMINE the prices you pay at the pump. In California, it is even worse, due to the more expensive gasoline blends that are done for the state that are not cost-effective nationally, and, of course, the added requirements of CARB over and above those of the EPA.
Federal/state taxes (and sometimes local sales taxes) go a long way to help DETERMINE the prices you pay at the pump. In California, it is even worse, due to the more expensive gasoline blends that are done for the state that are not cost-effective nationally, and, of course, the added requirements of CARB over and above those of the EPA.
05-13-14, 09:36 AM
#62
Guest
Posts: n/a
If the goal in life is not to "improve" constantly, then why live? Why expect to survive in such an industry? As you point out, to survive, you must push the limits, adapt, innovate, regardless of the situation handed to you. Many policy changes/mandates/laws/rules are not logical to the ones affected, trust me I am in healthcare at a large community hospital that serves mostly indigent patients. Who do you think dictates those changes? In the medical field, the strength is in the numbers, the empirical data that gives us evidence based medicine. Too often, government changes are experimental, forced through with no actual numbers to back it up.
The way I interpreted the line I quoted from lexfather relates to overall improvements from the "bottom" up. For example Kia and Hyundai, I can still remember laughing at the Rio and Sephia (I was just out of high school). Now look at their products. Sure I would not buy one, but improved they have. I have read arguments on here about the Hyundai Equus and what it represents. Look on their website and it advertises "429 HP V8 engine-more than Lexus LS 460." Does that mean LS owners will consider it? Most definitely not, but they are pushng the envelope. I was agreeing with that fact that the whole industry has been elevated, particularly from the bottom up, and leaving the political implications at the door. Hell, GM and Ford can be lumped into it as well. I never would have considered a Ford product 5-10 years ago. Now we are on our second vehicle, loving it. Regarding Lexus, look at the future of the "F," speculation on this forum projects greatness. It's new territory for them. Many other "luxury" brands are adapting and putting out vehicles for the "masses" as well as their original clientele. I look at the Audi RS7, and I am stunned by the numbers (MPG in light of the performance).
I danced briefly in the debate forum on here. If you remember, I lean right and generally agree with conservative principles, but I love conversations with people that don't have the same views as me. I try to avoid politics on social media, it is more of face to face thing with me. It is near impossible to have a constructive debate with most people via the internet, in my opinion. PLus, it just takes too damn long. As far as what I bolded above, that is hardly supportable as it leads to abuses of power, etc. We have already seen this. Although I am from California, please don't get me twisted. Nothing is far fetched anymore in the apathetic times we live in. Along the lines of taxation, let's remove the property tax deduction, amend prop 13 (Ca specific), take away mortgage interest deductions...things that hit the pocket books hard....affecting car buying decisions. I almost forgot, no more deducting car tags either! Anyways, government intervention often fails when done on a larger scale. Just read the empirically inclined Thomas Sowell. Actually, youtube him.
The last bolded point is scary, because control is the goal. And I sense your sarcasm!
The way I interpreted the line I quoted from lexfather relates to overall improvements from the "bottom" up. For example Kia and Hyundai, I can still remember laughing at the Rio and Sephia (I was just out of high school). Now look at their products. Sure I would not buy one, but improved they have. I have read arguments on here about the Hyundai Equus and what it represents. Look on their website and it advertises "429 HP V8 engine-more than Lexus LS 460." Does that mean LS owners will consider it? Most definitely not, but they are pushng the envelope. I was agreeing with that fact that the whole industry has been elevated, particularly from the bottom up, and leaving the political implications at the door. Hell, GM and Ford can be lumped into it as well. I never would have considered a Ford product 5-10 years ago. Now we are on our second vehicle, loving it. Regarding Lexus, look at the future of the "F," speculation on this forum projects greatness. It's new territory for them. Many other "luxury" brands are adapting and putting out vehicles for the "masses" as well as their original clientele. I look at the Audi RS7, and I am stunned by the numbers (MPG in light of the performance).
I danced briefly in the debate forum on here. If you remember, I lean right and generally agree with conservative principles, but I love conversations with people that don't have the same views as me. I try to avoid politics on social media, it is more of face to face thing with me. It is near impossible to have a constructive debate with most people via the internet, in my opinion. PLus, it just takes too damn long. As far as what I bolded above, that is hardly supportable as it leads to abuses of power, etc. We have already seen this. Although I am from California, please don't get me twisted. Nothing is far fetched anymore in the apathetic times we live in. Along the lines of taxation, let's remove the property tax deduction, amend prop 13 (Ca specific), take away mortgage interest deductions...things that hit the pocket books hard....affecting car buying decisions. I almost forgot, no more deducting car tags either! Anyways, government intervention often fails when done on a larger scale. Just read the empirically inclined Thomas Sowell. Actually, youtube him.
The last bolded point is scary, because control is the goal. And I sense your sarcasm!
I don't think anywhere here can say with a straight face we have been subject to only buying 100hp cars. That could not be further from the truth.
If anything car makers should be applauded . In the 1970s when oil prices skyrocketed car makers responded with some pretty terrible options and power decreased with small improvements in MPG. Today they have given us more power and more MPG while holding prices and keeping quality up.
Again I ask "WHAT IS THE PROBLEM" other than ranting?
I still have the GS 450h
Just added a Lexon Lip...I'm a car enthusiast Contrarily we could actually write a thread title with the opposite which would make far far far more sense. That even with stricter MPG requirements that cars have gotten better and automakers have answered the challenging call.
Last edited by DaveGS4; 05-13-14 at 01:29 PM. Reason: member complaint
05-13-14, 10:06 AM
#64
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by LexFather
I still have the GS 450h
Just added a Lexon Lip...I'm a car enthusiast So the LS is the wife's car? Or did you give her the GS?
05-13-14, 11:39 AM
#65
Guest
Posts: n/a
Its modded too
Not to mention Dodge is coming out with the Hellcat, which might hit 700hp
Lexus just pumped up their 5.0 V-8 from 416hp to maybe 471hp....
DAMN ENVIRONMENTALISTS!!!
05-13-14, 12:03 PM
#67
Lexus Test Driver
It's the government's job to protect itself from compromised trade positions that can harm economic growth. Curbing fuel consumption allows a more elastic behavior of the commodity, meaning the economy can absorb price swings with less harm.
We could argue about economics, but let me just point to an easy, low hanging fruit to support my argument: hybrids like the Volt can pretty much travel your entire commute and not use a drop of gasoline. By reducing the amount of driving done during a period of high prices, a Volt owner could in theory completely eliminate any consumption of gasoline during said period. Thus, gasoline, for this hypothetical consumer, would be an elastic good.
We could argue about economics, but let me just point to an easy, low hanging fruit to support my argument: hybrids like the Volt can pretty much travel your entire commute and not use a drop of gasoline. By reducing the amount of driving done during a period of high prices, a Volt owner could in theory completely eliminate any consumption of gasoline during said period. Thus, gasoline, for this hypothetical consumer, would be an elastic good.
Trying to force EVs and other alternative-fuel vehicles down the throats of US citizens has as much to do with pushing a partisan political agenda and engaging in crony capitalism to line the pockets of government friends as much as any economic incentive to benefit the US consumer or general US citizen.
Last edited by gengar; 05-13-14 at 12:06 PM.
05-13-14, 12:25 PM
#68
Lexus Champion
Jesus Christ, when will this enviro-**** bull**** ever end?
Euro 6 emissions are tough to deal with............and now EU government is planning on EURO 7 emission regulations by year 2020.
Fleet emissions must not exceed 95 grams per km of CO2 (otherwise penalties will be added)
This is nuts
And this has now forced BMW M to consider further downsizing and 'downgrading' of engines for future models
BMW M3 & M4 could be offered with a four-cylinder engine - report
Weight reductions could make it feasible
BMW M's Head of Product Management has revealed the M3 and M4 could eventually be equipped with a four-cylinder engine.
Speaking to Motoring, Carsten Pries said “We do not start our design process with a power output in mind" but "for sure, you could see a future [M3 and M4] powered by a four-cylinder engine."
While that's far from a confirmation Pries said replacing the six-cylinder engine with a four-cylinder unit would help to reduce the car's weight. As he explained, “If we have a car with less mass, it is foreseeable that the [performance] targets we set could be reached with a four [cylinder engine]."
As a refresher, the current M3 and M4 are powered by a 3.0-liter TwinPower Turbo six-cylinder engine that develops 431 PS (317 kW) and 406 lb-ft (550 Nm) of torque. It enables the cars to accelerate from 0-100 km/h in as little as 4.1 seconds.
http://www.worldcarfans.com/11405127...ylinder-engine
What the **** man
Pretty soon, future BMW M3/M4 will have an engine sound of a modded Civic........all because of these stupid EU emissions regulations
Euro 6 emissions are tough to deal with............and now EU government is planning on EURO 7 emission regulations by year 2020.
Fleet emissions must not exceed 95 grams per km of CO2 (otherwise penalties will be added)
This is nuts
And this has now forced BMW M to consider further downsizing and 'downgrading' of engines for future models
BMW M3 & M4 could be offered with a four-cylinder engine - report
Weight reductions could make it feasible
BMW M's Head of Product Management has revealed the M3 and M4 could eventually be equipped with a four-cylinder engine.
Speaking to Motoring, Carsten Pries said “We do not start our design process with a power output in mind" but "for sure, you could see a future [M3 and M4] powered by a four-cylinder engine."
While that's far from a confirmation Pries said replacing the six-cylinder engine with a four-cylinder unit would help to reduce the car's weight. As he explained, “If we have a car with less mass, it is foreseeable that the [performance] targets we set could be reached with a four [cylinder engine]."
As a refresher, the current M3 and M4 are powered by a 3.0-liter TwinPower Turbo six-cylinder engine that develops 431 PS (317 kW) and 406 lb-ft (550 Nm) of torque. It enables the cars to accelerate from 0-100 km/h in as little as 4.1 seconds.
http://www.worldcarfans.com/11405127...ylinder-engine
Pretty soon, future BMW M3/M4 will have an engine sound of a modded Civic........all because of these stupid EU emissions regulations
05-13-14, 12:26 PM
#69
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
funny thing is its state and federal govt's taxes that comprise 15% of the price of gasoline. And its the federal govt driving up commodity prices through inflation. The commodity price of crude being 75% of the price of gas. Yet they are the ones that are suppose to "protect" us from high gas prices.
yes, and an easy target, because the car has been for over a century the most useful invention and the most fun to many. but do gooders always have a way of wanting to spoil the party.
Time we get guys in like Jay Leno in those positions.
because you didn't make any points except self-evident ones.
you said cars have gotten better. who's gonna argue?
you said govt forced them to get better. ok, but more specifically, govt forced them to get more fuel efficient, and they still also make fast cars. thanks.
The world did not end
Even if we look at Europe or China or Japan and other countries that have had strict regulations for quite sometime car makers still sell high horsepower cars along with their small and efficient cars.
but why did MORE POLLUTING diesel cars become so popular? because of govt policies. now they're trying to have it other way, punishing driving more with congestion fees, tolls, displacement surcharges, and on and on... MOST people in europe drive tiny gutless hatchbacks with little to no sound insulation. they SUCK. thank you environmentalists/politicians. the same ones who signed up for kyoto and then all missed the targets anyway because they're all hypocrites just like al gore.
I don't think anywhere here can say with a straight face we have been subject to only buying 100hp cars. That could not be further from the truth.
If anything car makers should be applauded.
again, you just tee one up, whack it, and congratulate yourself. well done.
Again I ask "WHAT IS THE PROBLEM" other than ranting?
more specifically, there's no problem if you like govt bullying most into buying decisions, and worse, not really addressing the problems with available solutions.
what did your boy al gore call the automobile? the greatest threat to the planet. that's how ignorant he is.
I still have the GS 450h Just added a Lexon Lip...
Just added a Lexon Lip...
Contrarily we could actually write a thread title with the opposite which would make far far far more sense.
05-13-14, 12:33 PM
#70
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
... Trying to force EVs and other alternative-fuel vehicles down the throats of US citizens has as much to do with pushing a partisan political agenda and engaging in crony capitalism to line the pockets of government friends as much as any economic incentive to benefit the US consumer or general US citizen.
This is nuts
Pretty soon, future BMW M3/M4 will have an engine sound of a modded Civic........all because of these stupid EU emissions regulations
exactly the kind of arbitrary whackiness that do gooders like to engage in. i'm sure it makes them feel very important and i've no doubt they're earnest.
05-13-14, 12:42 PM
#72
Lead Lap
Think the car gods are lifting their glasses tonight on Mount what have you, to the guys who came up for real cars on this thread (Firebirds etc), shaking a fist at the environmentalists. I can still recall the days when these doomsayers told us we must kiss our cars goodbye, not enough fossil fuel reserves. Now it is known that there are enough of the stuff underneath the North Pole, but again they stepped in and say no, youre going to destroy the place. Here we pay tax on a new car according to its carbon emission readout. Guess who pocket the money. Let you wonder if all the scare stories are not lucrative to somebody.
Last edited by nipponbird; 05-13-14 at 01:05 PM.
05-13-14, 12:54 PM
#73
Guest
Posts: n/a
It just seems some people are mad and angry and pointing fingers at groups they already hate. So now lets blame them for cars getting more power with more MPG. lol wut?
Trying to force EVs and other alternative-fuel vehicles down the throats of US citizens has as much to do with pushing a partisan political agenda and engaging in crony capitalism to line the pockets of government friends as much as any economic incentive to benefit the US consumer or general US citizen.
We are forced to buy EV's/alternative fuel vehicles??? When was this declaration? The link I shows actually show EV sales stink . They are not being forced on anyone and people so far do not like the option. The best received EV seems to be the 70-130k Tesla Model S.
Tesla also is fighting the government and the status quo by challenging the dealer network by offering direct to consumer sales. So isn't that quite ironic?
So its okay to line the pockets of friends in the oil/car industry for decades but I guess the EV/alternative energy industry means we need to start paying attention to these things? And guess who is making them anyway? The same car companies that make 12 MPG cars.
It is simply an option being promoted currently, it is not the ONLY option.
lol wut?Trying to force EVs and other alternative-fuel vehicles down the throats of US citizens has as much to do with pushing a partisan political agenda and engaging in crony capitalism to line the pockets of government friends as much as any economic incentive to benefit the US consumer or general US citizen.
Tesla also is fighting the government and the status quo by challenging the dealer network by offering direct to consumer sales. So isn't that quite ironic?
So its okay to line the pockets of friends in the oil/car industry for decades but I guess the EV/alternative energy industry means we need to start paying attention to these things? And guess who is making them anyway? The same car companies that make 12 MPG cars.
It is simply an option being promoted currently, it is not the ONLY option.
05-13-14, 01:20 PM
#74
Lexus Test Driver
Please re-read my post, this time noting the word "trying". It's even in what you quoted.
We've discussed this previously on this forum - I'll support anybody who wants to kill the required dealer network, but Tesla is only trying to gain an exception for themselves. You can rightfully give credit for "fighting the government and the status quo" to an entity that works for fairness for all; it is not at all the same when they're just trying to gain personal advantage.
Of course it's OK to line pockets of the oil and automotive industries so long as consumers decide that's what should happen. That's the whole point. Right now, the consumer wants to consume oil; if the issue is an oil trade deficit, why then are we only focusing on penalizing US consumers in order to curb demand, rather than increase domestic supply? As always, the problem arises when the government uses taxpayer money to hurt the taxpayer.
Of course it's OK to line pockets of the oil and automotive industries so long as consumers decide that's what should happen. That's the whole point. Right now, the consumer wants to consume oil; if the issue is an oil trade deficit, why then are we only focusing on penalizing US consumers in order to curb demand, rather than increase domestic supply? As always, the problem arises when the government uses taxpayer money to hurt the taxpayer.
05-13-14, 01:39 PM
#75
Forum Administrator
iTrader: (2)
Folks, some personal commentary and heated arguments going on here. Let's keep this discussion polite and mature please.