Lexus Unfazed by LS Decline as S Class, Model S Grow
#151
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+1, only internet fan boys with ***** about mundane cars being fwd and automatics. My dd is a fwd buick, and I like it that way. On nice days Ill pull out my cls63 for some quick thrills. Why am I telling you this? There is a place in the world for fwd based cars. Audi knows how to execute it pretty well however Acura doesn't. Acura markets their cars as the intelligent alternative sports sedan, but they don't deliver, thats why I don't like them. On the other hand Audi markets some cars as performance cars and they do deliver, therefor no gripe with fwd....
Interesting.
#152
Lexus Fanatic
^^^^ I'm going to respond with the 1989 LS coming back like I have said about the GS 400. It won't happen. Those cars at the time were right for that time and caught the Germans napping. The Germans today are simply not the same companies who take Lexus for granted. They are better than ever. One advantage I can see Lexus really having is if the next gen hybrid is amazing. I have a feeling it will be.
#153
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For everyday mundane FWD is A okay as long as it isn't marketed as a sports car. Now if lexus were to go and make es-f, throw in some power keep it strictly FWD I would be upset. But since they wont I see no issue. The issue here of audi vs acura is audi is fwd derived... However acuras are usually FWD only and provide no real performance models, however that fwd derrived audi can come with a w12 or a screaming 4.2 v8 etc...
#154
Lexus Champion
Please describe the weakness of using a platform that supports both transverse and longitudinal mountings for the engine, if you can. I'd love to hear it. Be specific, nothing like "worse dynamics" or other subjective feelings & emotions if you please, let's stick to quantifiable tangibles, and compare a RWD-based AWD system vs a FWD-based AWD system.
Third you don't need AWD all the time, in many places (i.e. west coast) not at all. So you're driving around in a car with all the added weight and complexity of an AWD system, when a RWD version would provide even more entertainment with less complexity. The reason you're driving around in an A8 in southern California with AWD is because Audi would be embarrassed to offer the A8 without it - because it would be FWD, which doesn't have a good image and is inferior dynamically. BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes don't have to worry about this, since their non-AWD versions are still respectable RWD cars.
Back to the A8 specifically, I have never been impressed by the ones I've seen (pre-refresh, not seen a post refresh yet). They have almost no presence outside the front end, with a body and proportions that look like a big VW family sedan. A8 lags the LS in surfacing quality, paint finish, and proportions.
The interiors of both are fine, as is to be expected at these prices, but the A8 like most German cars is firm inside, whereas the LS is much more plush in that surfaces feel softer and more wielding.
The top of the doors for example are padded soft stitched leather on the Lexus, whereas the A8 and even new S-class are borderline hard moulded material. The arm rests on the LS are very soft padded and nicely stitched leather, again very firm in the A8 in comparison.
Then you add in the more obvious disadvantages like less dependability, worse long term resale value, and higher price to buy for what isn't really a better car in the first place and it's why I gave the A8 a lower score. I like to say time reveals all truths, and over and over again it has revealed that the LS is one of the best if not best cars in the segment. LS400 today over any of its rivals of the time. LS430 today over similar era S-class. LS460 today over 2006+ S-class (look how rapidly that big glorified German Chrysler has aged and depreciated). The A8 is certainly no competition in this regard. 5-6 years from now it will be another junk car no one will touch. The LS meanwhile...
Last edited by Mr. Burns; 07-08-14 at 06:49 PM.
#156
Lexus Test Driver
FWD based or not, an S8 will run circles around the LS whether its on the dragstrip or on a track.
Also Lexus has much to learn about AWD, their systems are very average.
They are also the ONLY automaker that has the AWD version putting out less power due to poor platform engineering.
Rwd LS 386hp vs AWD LS 360hp = very weak
Also Lexus has much to learn about AWD, their systems are very average.
They are also the ONLY automaker that has the AWD version putting out less power due to poor platform engineering.
Rwd LS 386hp vs AWD LS 360hp = very weak
#157
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by Mr. Burns
Location: Canuckistan
#158
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#159
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hlee, i deleted your post about hip/hop and african american buyers. any discussion or posts in those areas, whether factual or not, inevitably leads to arguments, and they're not relevant to this thread anyway.
thank you.
thank you.
#160
FWD based or not, an S8 will run circles around the LS whether its on the dragstrip or on a track.
Also Lexus has much to learn about AWD, their systems are very average.
They are also the ONLY automaker that has the AWD version putting out less power due to poor platform engineering.
Rwd LS 386hp vs AWD LS 360hp = very weak
Also Lexus has much to learn about AWD, their systems are very average.
They are also the ONLY automaker that has the AWD version putting out less power due to poor platform engineering.
Rwd LS 386hp vs AWD LS 360hp = very weak
As much as I know, Audi buys its AWD components off the market, and some of them are from Toyota based companies such as JTEKT Torsen (Torsen are for their full time awd, other ones are part-time Haldex based)
Toyota probably makes most AWD vehicles in the world, number of AWD cars sold by Toyota probably outsells complete Audi brand. However they will probably never make AWD based performance vehicles, as they have RWD cars for that. So you will likely not see high performance AWD vehicle (F brand) from Lexus.
This is not a jab at Audi, but nevertheless, Audi does produce a lot of FWD cars and AWD is their way making their platforms more luxurious, just like what Lexus did with NX for instance.
#162
Lexus Champion
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hmmmm, I for one don't care about sales numbers in general.
Currently considering getting a late model LS, does this mean I can probably swing a really good deal on a pre-owned car? I'm thinking around $40k budget wise would that get me a nice LS for a daily?
What model years are the best for the LS to get? If I get one will probably for the the "L" model and of course it has to be white
The new LS460 F-sport looks amazing btw, saw one the other day and it just looks sick!
P.S. Sorry I did not read all 11 pages but saw a few jab remarks about the A8. I recently had my other Audi in for service and they gave me an A8 loaner for the week. After spending serious seat time in that car, I can tell you it's an AMAZING machine. The comfort level from the massage/heated/air cool seats to all the high tech gadgets to help you drive safely was super cool. I rarely drive cars with all this high tech stuff in luxury cars so it was quite a neat experience. The A8 is not the fastest but plenty fast for getting around town and speeding up on ramps. I got great gas mileage and the leg room in the back rivals most SUV's. I think price tag on a new A8 is around $90k and the S8 around $125k which don't make them cheap but I would hardly call them junk or garbage. Not sure I would buy one out of warranty though given all the headaches I've had with my vintage 05 s4. I can only imagine what dealers would charge to fix a problem on the A8.
The LS is a great platform and the key factor it's got over the competitors is RELIABILITY! I'm the sure LS is also expensive to fix out of warranty but at least Lexus has a better reputation for resale.
Currently considering getting a late model LS, does this mean I can probably swing a really good deal on a pre-owned car? I'm thinking around $40k budget wise would that get me a nice LS for a daily?
What model years are the best for the LS to get? If I get one will probably for the the "L" model and of course it has to be white
The new LS460 F-sport looks amazing btw, saw one the other day and it just looks sick!
P.S. Sorry I did not read all 11 pages but saw a few jab remarks about the A8. I recently had my other Audi in for service and they gave me an A8 loaner for the week. After spending serious seat time in that car, I can tell you it's an AMAZING machine. The comfort level from the massage/heated/air cool seats to all the high tech gadgets to help you drive safely was super cool. I rarely drive cars with all this high tech stuff in luxury cars so it was quite a neat experience. The A8 is not the fastest but plenty fast for getting around town and speeding up on ramps. I got great gas mileage and the leg room in the back rivals most SUV's. I think price tag on a new A8 is around $90k and the S8 around $125k which don't make them cheap but I would hardly call them junk or garbage. Not sure I would buy one out of warranty though given all the headaches I've had with my vintage 05 s4. I can only imagine what dealers would charge to fix a problem on the A8.
The LS is a great platform and the key factor it's got over the competitors is RELIABILITY! I'm the sure LS is also expensive to fix out of warranty but at least Lexus has a better reputation for resale.
Last edited by s4play; 07-09-14 at 08:57 AM.
#163
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (12)
Then you add in the more obvious disadvantages like less dependability, worse long term resale value, and higher price to buy for what isn't really a better car in the first place and it's why I gave the A8 a lower score. I like to say time reveals all truths, and over and over again it has revealed that the LS is one of the best if not best cars in the segment. LS400 today over any of its rivals of the time. LS430 today over similar era S-class. LS460 today over 2006+ S-class (look how rapidly that big glorified German Chrysler has aged and depreciated). The A8 is certainly no competition in this regard. 5-6 years from now it will be another junk car no one will touch. The LS meanwhile...
#165
Guest
Posts: n/a
Whats so average about Lexus/Toyota AWD systems? Is LS designed to compete with S8?
As much as I know, Audi buys its AWD components off the market, and some of them are from Toyota based companies such as JTEKT Torsen (Torsen are for their full time awd, other ones are part-time Haldex based)
Toyota probably makes most AWD vehicles in the world, number of AWD cars sold by Toyota probably outsells complete Audi brand. However they will probably never make AWD based performance vehicles, as they have RWD cars for that. So you will likely not see high performance AWD vehicle (F brand) from Lexus.
This is not a jab at Audi, but nevertheless, Audi does produce a lot of FWD cars and AWD is their way making their platforms more luxurious, just like what Lexus did with NX for instance.
As much as I know, Audi buys its AWD components off the market, and some of them are from Toyota based companies such as JTEKT Torsen (Torsen are for their full time awd, other ones are part-time Haldex based)
Toyota probably makes most AWD vehicles in the world, number of AWD cars sold by Toyota probably outsells complete Audi brand. However they will probably never make AWD based performance vehicles, as they have RWD cars for that. So you will likely not see high performance AWD vehicle (F brand) from Lexus.
This is not a jab at Audi, but nevertheless, Audi does produce a lot of FWD cars and AWD is their way making their platforms more luxurious, just like what Lexus did with NX for instance.
Its the ultimate internet trump car right? Ignoring fact you get a 6 cylinder A8 for the price of a V-8 LS. They make excuses for FWD and even I-4 models. Now we jump to a $120,000 S8 that sells in tiny numbers that Lexus obviously has no answer for. Just to prove some innate point that the LS isn't worthy on a Lexus forum. Mind you Lexus better get their own "trump" card soon in the form of a LS F and not just a hybrid since it does add panache and prestige to your brand. Lexus fanboys need a trump card since the LFA is gone.
Note the same people also now site sales are the best way to judge a car because the Germans are now selling #1 here. When Lexus was selling #1 here, sales were stupid. Before FWD sucked when Lexus did it. Now the Germans have FWD, oh the drive doesn't matter these cars are not tracked.
I forgot who the poster was but they said people want what they want and that is true. The LS could have 800hp at 50k, people who want a German ride will go that route. People that want a Jaguar will go that route. You would have the same people say "oh they LS is too cheap, why they price it so low". If the LS was 200k, they would say "why the LS so expensive, more than Germans, that is dumb".
All I know is they are all aspirational and if I could swing it that S65 or Panamera Turbo LWB would be something to own.