bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

for a rookie, especially one that's a bunch cheaper, 70 ain't bad.

hlee12

that's reasonable. but i think A8 is definitely ahead of LS though. that's just me.

Mr. Burns

The thing is front wheel drive based, and it's not as well finished.

RNM GS3

Bottom line is this - LS was once what put Lexus on the map and defined the brand.
It was arguably The Best luxury car on the planet from 1990 to 2006.

The new 2007 LS460 model had a TON of cost cutting and the Sclass regained its crown of king of this class. The refresh for 2013-2014 LS has helped but all new car is badly needed.
The Sclass is now on a different level, and no sensible person can say the LS is better.
It can also be argued the other main competitors - 7series, A8, XJ - are now also superior cars.
In addition. LS is facing competition from Korean newcomers Hyundai Equus and Kia K900.

LS needs to step up BIG TIME.
More options, more luxury, new powertrains, and definitely need some innovation to separate itself from rest of class.

Carmaker1

Thanks! Congratulations on that, as that's quite amazing! Lexus clearly has the utmost individual respect for you that they've made such a profound gesture to a customer. I'm never even heard of that happening before, as many brochures for about a decade now, may recycle an identical previous model year's brochure photographs with CGI.

I figure that both MY2014 and MY15 are identical, or that they took specific shots of your new F-Sport that don't differ from any possible minor changes for MY2015. I ask about minor changes, as in the middle of a 4 year run, usually some place holding changes are implemented in the second half/year 3 (new colours, minor tech upgrades, packaging, or trim).

Well, I don't really look at the Escalade as an LX competitor, but it certainly is in the eyes of many. Surprisingly enough, the LX is more popular amongst African immigrant professionals than the Escalade. Most are rather reserved and do not choose as Escalade. Not too many living in the US, thus the results.

I am only giving the "too cheap" comments as an example, but I'm not necessarily calling the LS a cheap car or too cheap. I just believe that Toyota shouldn't let the value luxury pricing standard they started with, hinder them from moving higher. If a new LS becomes 10% higher and knocks the hell out of the whole segment, I do not want to hear any stupid complaints such as, "How dare Lexus price the 2017 LS500 (SWB) at $81k? They're too greedy and insane! It should only be $75k base! Too overpriced, I'm going German!"

I mentioned this also, as another like-minded uncle called my dad's then-new 2006 Jaguar XJ a cheap car (only 145 were made) compared to his 2005-06 S500. The shallow and image-obsessed bunch may not be the ideal Lexus customer base, but image is very important in the luxury segment and Lexus knows this immensely.

The likes of those "too cheap" cracking "uncles" in my personal life, are what I call ignorant trash or village fools that literally left the African bush (West Africa), managed by God's grace to become successful in oil or medicine/pharmacy. Yet they still have severe inferiority complexes.

My point isn't the LS is "cheap". I am just saying that maybe Lexus needs to think about allow more breathing room for implementation of some extreme class-firsts and further bringing the LS into ultra-luxury, without reducing their profit margin. Doing that requires a narrower price gap between similar competitors (750i, S500/550). The XF40 did well with some class-firsts at introduction, but dropped the ball mid-cycle.

Those Camry-esque 2009 facelifts (460/Sport/600h HS grille) ruined the momentum and consistency of the 4LS (no offense intended to any MY2010-2012 owners), that allowed MB's own 2009 W221 facelifts and Audi/BMW redesigns to further the gap. The current version has repaired that somewhat, but removed an innovative feature and could soon be showing its a bit.

I am very much tired of the mindset that some have carried against Lexus listing higher MSRPs on some U.S. models (i.e. RC, IS, GS-F) as the efforts invested just might warrant it. It's not as if an LS460L RWD is $89k base against the $93k S550. It is not just immature German fan online trolls that make digs, as some stupidly continue focus on past JDM re-badging (none of the Lexus range is "re-badged" anymore, not even the LX570).

Price criticism is understandable in some cases though. I base that on my mother (not father), scoffing at the MSRP of the pre-2012 LS600hL, citing that it was absurd for the offering it was compared to her 760Li and marginal improvements over the LS460L.The weakest link for the LS overall in my opinion, is sadly the LS600hL. Hasn't really seen any significant (bespoke) improvement since 2007. The rest of the line, does just fine for now.

It's not exactly overnight anymore (if I'm making sense), as 25 years may not be 40+ or 60+ years (see MB W180 & W116), but the LS isn't the new kid on the block anymore. Anyone that's sensible, knows the LS is a genuine flagship/executive limousine and competes with the S-Class. It is thankfully not an RLX competitor, like the LS400 nearly was with the FWD Legend(ary).

If not constrained by extreme price competitiveness, the LS can grow to unimaginable heights and I know that is what will happen for sure.

It is time for Lexus to take further, what it started in 1989, and took another notch higher in 2006-07 with the LWB and range-topping 600h.

I'm not asking for a Lexus Maybach variant (and maybe that wouldn't be such a bad idea), but at least supreme Japanese craftsmanship that is seemingly close or "equal" to an S550 and makes a 2016 750Li interior look like a 328i (LCi) by comparison. Not just parallel, negligible differences (between LS & 7). Some new Lexus models have hinted at this splendid direction, as well as concepts, so I hope it's taken further. Let it be how some are solely amazed by the 2015 IS350 and C450 interiors, versus the 335i and older A4, with the lovely Q50 in the middle.

On my own part, that isn't what I'm getting at in the least. The LS has done well, but I just have concerns that the price constraints are hurting the LS ability to fully match or even surpass the competition. I've already mentioned how some trend-setting and pioneering features have been removed from U.S. market models, due to how it would affect the price of LS back in the day. I wonder if that still holds true.

See what I mean:

1st generation (1989-1994) JDM-spec:










MB by comparison:

1989-1991 560SEL (much more, as 420SEL competed with LS/Celsior)



1991-94 600SEL (was 2.5-3x times more, yet no NAV and meagre rear controls)





The UCF10/11 in full-spec massively undercut and surpassed the content of both equally and higher priced competitors (even their successors). A fully loaded 1993 LS400 was $53,100 vs the fully loaded Celsior at $52,900, yet the LS400 omitted many rare innovative items. If GPS wasn't available in the U.S. back then (1991-92), at least use of the digital EMV screen would have wowed internationally and fermented Lexus as an innovative luxury brand against MB & BMW.

The LS did not offer the GPS or in-dash EMV screen until October 1997 nor the rear comfort (Ultra) packs until October 2000's LS430. The BMW's 740i E38 beat them with GPS NAV in EU by 1994 and N. Amer. in late 1996. L-Select and some other features are not available in the US and EU.

Possibly for any complaints of the XF40 now falling short, the 4th generation might have cost a fortune to develop (APGS, Hybrid, LWB, AWD) and it did make an impact at launch. Possibly over $1 billion between 2001 and 2006. Thanks to the 2008-09 collapse, it needed to be more profitable on a longer run and allowed greater investment in a superior successor.

My point with my photo comparison, is that Lexus needs to be at the early 90s and 2001 LS430 level with the competition again. By comparably having revolutionary technologies and equipment to truly shock the industry, than just invisibly saving stand-out items for Japan and alienating key markets. I cringe when I hear about some of the most innovative things the Japanese have come up with, only to have German automakers steal the credit due to public ignorance.

At the risk of sounding repetitive, we know that Aichi have planned the best and will hopefully answer these questions. Just don't undercut so much, that you are forced to eliminate some rare niceties and materials. The strength of the Yen hasn't helped at times to widen the gap between price and profit margin.

It is good to be a great value choice, but don't let that hinder you from offering more than your competitors.

Yep, most of us are totally out of the loop on the next gen. LS at the moment. Your point though about U.S. customers of the LS and similar competitors, is certainly true. My parents being busy medical professionals used to mostly commute in their "personal vehicles" (i.e. XJ, A8L), but have slowly ceased doing so for about 5-10 years.

Lately, both of them make use of a Mazda 6 or business truck (Tacoma/Ford F-Series). On some occasions, they might use one of their personal vehicles. Since all of us (my siblings) have grown up and left, their personal cars and the big "family hauler" (QX56) are only used during the week. For shuttling the youngest child, my grandmother (equipment), or occasional large group outings (the latter only). Nowadays one can spend more time behind the wheel of my dad's personal cars, than he does.

While some may not agree, the gap is shallowly closing with non-luxury nameplates and that can be a problem, if the next model is more evolutionary than needed for customer base familiarity. If not for Akio Toyoda, I would worry about that possibility. It needs to be that, the base LS V8 becomes the closest and best competitor to the S500/550 on the luxury front and with better efficiency. Not strictly the S63 nor S65 AMGs, but the S500/550. An LS-F would do wonders certainly and a (unlikely) V12/alternative. It is a fact that Magic Body Control (MBC) will be topped by Lexus.

Yes, especially online amongst Toyota/Japanese-hating trolls, that most certainly cannot shop around in this segment anyway. Personally, as for some of our image-conscious family friends, I would say again it's just those that grew up in poor rural or village areas, but happened upon money one day think like that. They've enshrined seeing their leaders' obsessions with the 600 Grosser, W116 450SEL, the W126 S-Class. (This is similarly why the Camry is (and LS400 was) so successful as well)

Then add in BMW's offerings from 1977 (E23) & 1986/87 (V12), you'll have the German stronghold in luxury. Audi was nothing in my opinion, until the D2 A8 arrived in late 1994. Even their 1988 D1 V8 was somewhat invisible and neither did its 1991 update tide it over. It took until the 2002 D3 A8 for Audi to fully be on the same playing field as BMW and MB.

My mother, is also not in love with Lexus overall as much and questions the LS600hL positioning, but is of course extremely biased comparison wise for a reason. Her father was the BMW and Mazda importer for the ENG region (1960s-70s) and her first car was a first-gen 3-Series (E21). She does love the LX though and still has utmost respect for the LS400. Between my father, older sister, and I, we have greater respect for Lexus overall.

How do you figure that exactly? Have you driven the A8? I've not driven the updated LS yet, but have been a passenger of one and like it. My father owns a '12 A8L W12 and I find it much better than the two comparable 2009-2012 LS600hLs that I have driven.

As for a comparison between the regular A8L 4.2 and the 2006-2013 LS460L, the former I've never been in outside of a UK-spec 2007 D3. The Lexus XF45 rear section essentially ended most of its development in 2005, so I will not unfairly compare it to a vehicle (Audi A8L W12) that was finished 4-5 years later.

LexFather

^^^^ I'm going to respond with the 1989 LS coming back like I have said about the GS 400. It won't happen. Those cars at the time were right for that time and caught the Germans napping. The Germans today are simply not the same companies who take Lexus for granted. They are better than ever. One advantage I can see Lexus really having is if the next gen hybrid is amazing. I have a feeling it will be.

Lexus while rising in price is known for its value. It's part of a Lexus and there is nothing wrong with paying less for more or on par. We now have a $132,000 LS which was unheard of in 1989.

Lexus will have a new LS soon and from what I've heard it will be amazing. Of course the same people here will say it's cheap or not as good or whatever they want to continue to bash the LS about.

It's taken Lexus 25 years to get to this point and while some are beating up the LS, no other Asian car comes close to what it's accomplished and it's still one of the better sellers in segment. The 2013 extensive update was just that until the new model comes.

Mr. Burns simply brings up a good point. The A8 y'all are fapping off too is a fwd car with awd added. If Lexus attempted that with the LS it would be called a super corolla etc. But it gets a pass. Hilarious. This does not discount it being a fantastic car.

Anyone that feels the current LS is not competitive sounds ridiculous.

hlee12

S class can go over $200k which was unheard of in 1989.
accord and camry pushing 40k? unheard of in 1989.
i was bored and went to GM dealer and i saw a chevy tahoe with a price tag of 74k. unheard of in 1989. i almost puked in disgust.



interesting. maybe it's because of familiarity? among african-americans, escalade is the ultimate respect car. i can't stand that thing, but it's everywhere. bling bling culture is deeply rooted in their culture. i respect that because i was into that stuff when i was young. i grew out of it, but most of my friends are still into that stuff. IMO, Caddy is still top 2-3 luxury brand for most african americans.

TangoRed

It's even more surprising the Bentley Continental/Flying Spur gets away with it. Audi was smart to brand itself as an AWD virtuoso so people don't even know about the FWD origins. It also helps that the A8 is a dynamic drive. Great input in this thread LexFather and cmk1.

hlee12

i know nothing about this A8 being front wheel and just awd added. learn something new. so are they different than a typical quattro?

but all i know is A8 is friggin awesome in my book. i get that it doesn't have the presence on the road and looks too much like every other audi models. but i still find it incredibly sexy and everything about it is just awesome. just feel like audi is designed by those who care about the design. if the rest of the world is Tahoma, they are Helvetica.

Allen K

iTrader: (4)

I agree. The German makes were resting on their laurels in the late 80s, early 90s and the LS woke them up. The LS and the rise of Lexus made them up their games and now we're all enjoying the spoils regardless of the brand you like.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

saying the a8 is a fwd car with awd added is like saying, well... let's just say it's not accurate.

the quattro system is a real all wheel drive system that has been evolved over 30+ years. the latest versions can send 85% of torque to the rear wheels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro...rive_system%29

is the r8 a fwd car with awd always added? no, it's quattro.

hlee12

that's what i always thought - all audis are quattro.

rogers2

This post has me cracking up...BS

While Caddy make excellent cars. I don't know one African American personally that owns a Caddy. A Benz is the ultimate respect car. The only people talk about Caddy are from the South. When the last time you seen an Escalade in a video?

FYI: Caddy is NOT the top 2-3 luxury brand for most African Americans.
Back on topics.

http://www.marketwired.com/press-rel...ns-1691165.htm

http://www.strategicvision.com/press_release.php?pr=52

http://www.blacdetroit.com/core/page...%2F&mode=print

In my opinion Lexus shouldn't worry about the Mercedes S class. They should worry about Tesla. Electric vs Hy
I doubt the new LS will slow down the new S class sales. One thing for sure the new LS will be more reliable. Lexus should stick with what got them to this point and improve on it.

doge

How do you figure? All are AWD and use longitudinally placed engines. which a8 gave you a poor impression of fit and finish? Many on this site would agree that materials and build quality are above the ls...

Allen K

iTrader: (4)

Well not quite. All Audis have quattro as an option, but it's wholly possible to get a fwd Audi. I can still get an A3, A4, or A6 in fwd.

Seems to come standard in their SUVs, coupes, and A8 line